<![CDATA[Sub XML Properties]]>So there are 10 sub related XML properties and many of them have little or no explanation. I'm hoping that all of our map maker experts out there can help me clearly define what each property means and also if there is an example map to see the functionality of each (otherwise I have to read through a lot of code). I'm hoping to at a minimum at better explanations to the POS2 XML but really I'm preparing to rework sub properties to allow them to be on individual unit attachments and want to clean up the existing properties as much as possible.

Here is the list of properties with any description provided by POS2 XML:

  1. Super Sub Defence Bonus - If "true" adds 0-1 to the submarines defensive value if and when SuperSubs tech is activated.

  2. Air Attack Sub Restricted - If set to "true" a destroyer (isDestroyer) is required in the seazone in order for an air unit (isAir) to be able to hit an enemy submarine (isSub). Furthermore if air unit is the attacker, the destroyer must be owned by the attackers nation. If air unit is a defender, the destroyer can be owned by a allied nation as long as it is also at war with enemy submarines nations. This will also determine if the air unit rolls together or rolls seperately or rolls nothing, depending on the makeup of other allied units in the seazone when a submarine unit is present.

  3. Submarines Prevent Unescorted Amphibious Assaults - Submarines stop transports from doing amphibious assault unless there is at least 1 owned warship in the sea zone. If "true" submarine units are being counted as escorts. Combat transports are unaffected by this property.

  4. Ignore Sub In Movement - Allows naval units to bypass subs during movement phase (both combat and non combat). Also allows units ending moves in a SZ occupied by an enemy sub with the choice to either attack or ignore enemy sub.
    a. If set to "true". During CM or NCM, the enemy submarine units ("isSub") can be bypassed (move through) if desired, by all naval units ("isSea"). If any combat sea unit stops in submarines sea zone on CM , they get a "yes or no" prompt asking if they want to attack the submarines.
    b. If set to "false". During CM or NCM, the enemy submarine units ("isSub") stop movement (block) of all naval units ("isSea"). The "yes or no" prompt does not popup anymore if stopping in the submarines sea zone on CM. I guess attacking is implied now. Can't move into battle during NCM. The only exception is for other submarine units which do not block each other on CM or NCM. I don't recall if submarines ever block each other and if so what property controls it.

  5. Defending Subs Sneak Attack - They have first strike when defending as well unless a destroyer is present.

  6. Sub Retreat Before Battle - Allows option for subs to withdraw from battle prior to the combat rolls.

  7. Submarines Defending May Submerge Or Retreat - Submarines Defending May Submerge Or Retreat will allow defending submarines to retreat to friendly sea zones or submerge

  8. Submersible Subs - Subs can travel through enemy sea zones except if enemy destroyer is present. Subs have the option to submerge rather than withdraw.

  9. Sub Control Sea Zone Restricted - Sub Control Sea Zone Restricted should be FALSE if there are any convoy zones! If true, subs will not be able to capture convoy zones. Determines whether or not a sub can controls a sea zone. Determines if transports can't unload if a sub is present

  10. Subs Can End NonCombat Move With Enemies - Subs Can End NonCombat Move With Enemies allows submarines to end their noncombat movement in a sea zone containing any enemy units, including enemy subs

Basic Sub Abilities (No Properties Needed)

  • First strike only on attack
  • Can't attack air units
  • Attacking subs can withdraw at end of each round to where naval units attacked from
  • Defending subs can withdraw at end of each round to adjacent friendly or empty sea zone

Map References

  • WW2 Classic: none
  • WW2 Revised: 8 (should have 5 but code directly checks if ww2v2)
  • WW2v3: 2,4,5,6,8,10
  • WW2 Global 40: 2,3,4,5,6,8,10
  • TWW: 2,4,5,6,8,9
]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/355/sub-xml-propertiesRSS for NodeWed, 16 Sep 2026 04:07:07 GMTFri, 27 Oct 2017 15:59:06 GMT60<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 18:40:48 GMT]]>@hepps Yeah the ww2v2 and ww2v3 will pretty much have to be code investigation as no one really has a grasp on what they control and it isn't documented any where.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3557https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3557Tue, 31 Oct 2017 18:40:48 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:37:22 GMT]]>@redrum Well the whole thing is a documentation nightmare. We'd have to go back to every change log and extract any info detailing the many facets of the game... or dig through the code one by one.

Until we know precisely what each one achieves either individually or in combination with others.... I'd be hesitant to remove anything.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3554https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3554Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:37:22 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:19:57 GMT]]>@hepps Yeah, there is both ww2v2 and ww2v3 properties which no one really knows what either of them do. I'd like to get to a point that we capture anything they control into actual properties that describe the functionality and then either remove them or just leave them as a shortcut (kind of like isArtillery just generates a supportAttachment).

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3553https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3553Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:19:57 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:14:04 GMT]]>@hepps So then it may have been we needed to add 9 as a method of controlling that a sub could NOT control a SZ.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3552https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3552Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:14:04 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:11:20 GMT]]>@redrum Bearing in mind that TWW uses the property "ww2v3" in it as well.

Just to further complicate matters. 😃

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3551https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3551Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:11:20 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:07:30 GMT]]>@hepps Yeah, I'm trying to look from a historical view as well. It appears that at least a good chunk of them were originally created to capture sub functionality differences from classic -> revised -> v3:
WW2 Classic: none
WW2 Revised: 8 (should have 5 but code directly checks if ww2v2)
WW2v3: 2,4,5,6,8,10

I have a decent understanding of those 6 properties (2,4,5,6,8,10) and that the functionality they perform is needed to differentiate those 3 versions.

The other 4 properties aren't quite as clear to me (1,3,7,9). I think 3 is needed for global (maybe some other A&A maps as well). 1,7,9 I don't really understand what they are needed for and if they could just be removed.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3550https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3550Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:07:30 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 15:35:57 GMT]]>@redrum Can't remember exactly.... there was a good 4 months of muddling around testing behaviors back in the day. What we settled on gave us the results we were looking for.

Again, this tangle of properties is fraught with unexpected results when you are trying to use them. I remember going through 3 or 4 versions of subs while we were building.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3549https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3549Tue, 31 Oct 2017 15:35:57 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 15:31:08 GMT]]>@hepps Interesting. Any particular reason you don't use #3 and #10 (Global uses both which I consider TWW closest to that version of A&A)?

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3548https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3548Tue, 31 Oct 2017 15:31:08 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 15:24:04 GMT]]>@redrum I believe it had to do with how some units in SZ can change ownership. Ie Autraila turns into British. I believe... don't quote me as it was 8 years ago.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3547https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3547Tue, 31 Oct 2017 15:24:04 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:23:37 GMT]]>@Hepps I noticed that TWW sub rules are almost the same as ww2v3. Is there a reason you are using #9 and not using #10?

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3546https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3546Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:23:37 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 04:56:25 GMT]]>So I did some reading through the code to figure out what #8 actually does and found that it covers most of the differences between classic and revised:

  • Subs can travel through enemy sea zones except if enemy destroyer is present.
  • Subs have the option to submerge rather than withdraw.

Also took a look at classic to determine what base sub rules are with no properties set:

  • First strike only on attack
  • Can't attack air units
  • Attacking subs can withdraw at end of each round to where naval units attacked from
  • Defending subs can withdraw at end of each round to adjacent friendly or empty sea zone
]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3545https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3545Tue, 31 Oct 2017 04:56:25 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:58:17 GMT]]>@hepps
Yeah , I agree. They are a hodgepodge. It will be good to wrangle all submarine related properties into a more comprehensible state. From there we can analyze and review with more certainty. What is doing exactly what.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3544https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3544Tue, 31 Oct 2017 03:58:17 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Mon, 30 Oct 2017 00:58:59 GMT]]>Lots of good feedback. I've updated the first post trying to summarize everyone's posts so far.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3528https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3528Mon, 30 Oct 2017 00:58:59 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 23:42:39 GMT]]>@general_zod What I meant by that is that it would be a worth while endeavour for us while we are examining these properties... to look at which of all these properties are compatible and which cause interference which each other.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3526https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3526Sun, 29 Oct 2017 23:42:39 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:31:28 GMT]]>@hepps

Let me try again, hehe. I missed a key part.

Yes as point 3.a) goes, I agree. Most likely the logic behind it was, if it's "isSea", and has an attack value. Then it can potentially be killed (the preventing sub) , or if no destroyer present, at a minimum can force the preventing sub to make a choice. Fight the escort(s) to stop the amphibious landing, or submerge. Even if the escort is a sub itself.

So I guess a sub can be an escort, against another sub.

Just at first glance submarines don't fit the traditional escort mold, for amphibious landings.

I'm not sure, what exactly you mean on second part of reply.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3523https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3523Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:31:28 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:27:57 GMT]]>@captain-crunch The change's aren't meant to affect any map.... the purpose of this exercise is to potentially make some sub behaviors available independently of the all encompassing property of "isSub".

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3522https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3522Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:27:57 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:25:55 GMT]]>@redrum hey if these changes/updates effect the subs for the WWIIClassic map then please let me know when you change it so I can do a test match ... it's been awhile!

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3521https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3521Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:25:55 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:21:48 GMT]]>@hepps
Yes as point 3.a) goes, I agree. Most likely the logic behind it was, if it's "isSea", and has an attack value. Then it can potentially be killed, or if no destroyer present, at a minimum can force the sub to make a choice. Fight to stop the amphibious landing, or submerge.

Just at first glance submarines don't fit the traditional escort mold, for amphibious landings.

I'm not sure, what exactly you mean on second part of reply.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3520https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3520Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:21:48 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:31:48 GMT]]>@general_zod said in Sub XML Properties:

@redrum

Should probably also add a couple points for thoroughness. I'm using .3635 to test these items.

  1. Submarines Prevent Unescorted Amphibious Assault -

a. If "true" submarine units are being counted as escorts. (not sure if this was intended)

As far as your point about a. I believe this property is simply being used to verify that an "escorting" unit with an attacking combat value is present. Regardless of what type of "isSea" unit it is.

Some of the other things that might be worth examining in this investigation are how certain of these properties interact... and which are not compatible at all.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3519https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3519Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:31:48 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:57:43 GMT]]>@general_zod Great explanation 🙂

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3517https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3517Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:57:43 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:53:48 GMT]]>@redrum

Should probably also add a couple points for thoroughness. I'm using .3635 to test these items.

  1. Submarines Prevent Unescorted Amphibious Assault -

a. If "true" submarine units are being counted as escorts. (not sure if this was intended)

b. Combat transports are unaffected by this property, which is good.

  1. Ignore Sub In Movement -

a. If set to "true". During CM or NCM, the enemy submarine units ("isSub") can be bypassed (move through) if desired, by all naval units ("isSea"). If any combat sea unit stops in submarines sea zone on CM , they get a "yes or no" prompt asking if they want to attack the submarines. But if no destroyer is present, the submarine can simply submerge.

b. If set to "false". During CM or NCM, the enemy submarine units ("isSub") stop movement (block) of all naval units ("isSea"). The "yes or no" prompt does not popup anymore if stopping in the submarines sea zone on CM. I guess attacking is implied now. Can't move into battle during NCM.

Message Center would say "Enemy units on path" while trying to move a naval unit past a submarine, if set to "false".

The only exception is for other submarine units which do not block each other on CM or NCM. I don't recall if submarines ever block each other and if so what property controls it. I'll check it out.

c. Destroyers ("isDestroyer") + (isSea) units are also blocked by submarines (isSub) if above is set to "false". The "yes or no" prompt does not popup anymore if stopping in the submarines sea zone on CM. Can't move into battle during NCM

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3516https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3516Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:53:48 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:40:07 GMT]]>@hepps Another important thing about nine is that it also means transports cant unload if a sub is present I believe. Which you covered with your Sub controlling a sz. point. Perhaps that should be stated in there as well.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3515https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3515Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:40:07 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 18:57:01 GMT]]>@redrum said in Sub XML Properties:

  1. Sub Control Sea Zone Restricted - Sub Control Sea Zone Restricted should be FALSE if there are any convoy zones! If true, subs will not be able to capture convoy zones.

I do believe that this property also needs to note that it governs (quite literally) whether or not a sub controls a SZ.

And as a reference for you Red.... TWW utilizes: 2,4,5,6,8,9.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3514https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3514Sun, 29 Oct 2017 18:57:01 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Sub XML Properties on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:00:26 GMT]]>@redrum said in Sub XML Properties:

@hepps - Regarding #4, does that also make 'isDestroyer' units stop sub movement? And if units with 'isDestroyer' end in SZ with sub do they still have the choice not to attack the sub? Or is that all controlled with a different property?

I don't think #4 governs any part of the "isDestroyer" capabilities. And yes... even if a unit has "isDestroyer" they still have the option as to whether they want to attack the sub or ignore it.

Regarding #6, if its 'false' then subs get withdraw option at the end of each combat round instead of beginning?

Yes I believe without it they retreat normally as per all other units. *** It is also important to note that WITH it a sub is given the opportunity to retreat prior to as well as with all the other units.

]]>https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3511https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/3511Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:00:26 GMT