SBRs: Use Multiple Dice
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I'm currently working on a Global War v4 game that's playable with TripleA, and I'm currently working on the unitAttachments in the attachmentList. In GWv4, strategic bombers deal 2d6 damage without a bombingBonus when bombing, unlike the 1d6+bombingBonus that is used in G40 and many other games.
Does anybody have ideas for how I might add a second die for SBRs but not for normal combat (as in normal combats they get 3 dice) that doesn't involve something like 1d6+[bombingBonus=6]?
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The unit would need the 'heavyBomber' tech, as per PoS2:
<!-- (+X dice rolls for isAir isStrategicBomber) heavyBomber requires all isStrategicBomber units to have a "_hb" image variant (and "_lr_hb") --> <techname name="heavyBomber"/>The following game properties then govern how heavyBomber works:
<!-- All units with multiple dice rolls, will be forced to select the best die rolled instead of using all dice. --> <property name="LHTR Heavy Bombers" value="false" editable="true"> <boolean/> </property> <property name="Heavy Bomber Dice Rolls" value="2" editable="false"> <number min="2" max="3"/> </property>The first sets choosing if only the best value dice, while the second is set to the number of dice.
Hope this is helpful!
Cheers...
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Thank you for your suggestion! I haven't got around to technologies yet (I dread it as it's very different than G40) so I wasn't aware of the heavyBomber technology. That seems like it wouldn't quite work exactly as needed, for several reasons:
- If I'm not mistaken, that will never allow me to take the sum of two dice, but instead only keeps the highest of dice. So the probable range of results is (3.5-6), while I want a different range of (2-12) with the mean and median sum of 7.
- This solution will also affect all combat rolls in the same way as SBRs, so it'd be rolling two dice in combat (and taking the highest) when they should only roll one.
- Finally, there are multiple units that need the feature I'm desiring with the first one, "Strategic Bomber", using 2d6 as described above in SBRs but otherwise rolling 3d12 for combat, and the second one, "Heavy Strategic Bomber", rolling for 3d6 in SBRs and 5d12 in combat.
If XML were a programming language instead of a data language, it would be easy enough to create some conditionals and variables that check for what's doing the bombing and adjust the number of dice rolled appropriately, but unfortunately that just doesn't seem to be possible.
Sidenote: do we know if the unitAttachment option "attackRolls" (which for the purposes above is currently set to 3 for SB and 5 for HSB) also affects how many dice are rolled when bombing? I imagine the answer is yes, but I don't know for certain. If that were the case, perhaps there would be some way to change the options for "attackRolls" for those units when SBRing and reset them when finished?
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I think there is some confusion here. TripleA does not add separate dice roles, but each dice is rolled separately and applied to a target. For SBR, this damage is done as production to a territory which contains a factory/production unit. The following property how SBR damage is delt:
<!-- Damage From Bombing Done To Units Instead Of Territories has Strategic Bombing and Rockets do damage to a specific unit rather than directly to the player's PUs or to a territory. --> <property name="Damage From Bombing Done To Units Instead Of Territories" value="true" editable="false"> <boolean/> </property>Whether the above is true of false, SBR attacks are done only once at the beginning of the attack phase. All attacking units, land, sea or air, that participate in a SBR attack are retreated back to the combated territory and no longer take part in any other ensuing battle. Any 'isStrategicBomber' that is moved into an embattled territory, is given the option to preform a raid or attack. If "Damage From Bombing Done To Units Instead Of Territories" is true, and the unit has "heavyBomber" and "LHTR Heavy Bombers" is false and "Heavy Bomber Dice Rolls" is set then the attacking unit may choose to apply all separately rolled dice to a single unit.
Anyway, SBR and battle are preformed separately, and unit which are in attack may not participate in the other.
Hope the is helpful!
Cheers...
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Thank you for the reply! I think I've been following with what you've said so far, as far as I can tell, though there seems to be some miscommunication, likely due to the way I'm describing things, and for that I apologize.
I think there is some confusion here. TripleA does not add separate dice roles, but each dice is rolled separately and applied to a target. For SBR, this damage is done as production to a territory which contains a factory/production unit.
Whether TripleA takes the sum of separate dice rolls before applying them or, as you've said, takes each dice and applies it individually, mathematically it should result in the same effect upon a target provided that the bonus x remains the same between both options, such as:
"(two dice) + x bonus" and "(one dice plus x/2 bonus) twice".
Now, correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but whatever was calculated, that damage is done to the production of a territory, if the property name="Damage From Bombing Done To Units Instead Of Territories" is false, or to units themselves (specifically factories/bases) if that property is true.
However, as for the question I'm really after, how to have the number of dice differ between combat and an SBR, I don't see a way to do so currently that allows for multiple types of bombers with different numbers of dice for SBRs, as (if I'm not mistaken) no matter how I use "Heavy Bomber Dice Rolls" and the related heavyBomber technology, both strategic bomber units will have the same bonuses to SBRs when I want instead for one SB to have 2 dice and the other to have 3.
Anyway, to respond to your last paragraph: thank you for the clarification about how those properties interact! I wasn't aware of LHTR Heavy Bombers, but the fact that it affects both combat and SBRs makes me prefer not to implement it. I apologize if my previous reply caused some confusion, but I'm familiar with how SBRs are different from combat, as each unit participating in an SBR cannot participate in a combat in that territory, and vice versa. Unfortunately that's really not what I'm concerned about here, beyond the limitation with what I'm trying to achieve that the changes to number and sides of dice for SBRs does not result in any change in combat power.
The more I investigate, the more it seems like a limitation of the TripleA engine, which is understandable since it was certainly not designed for GW rules which are at their simplest an adaptation of AAR and at their most complex introduce several new systems that directly contradict by design much of AAR in the ways that the TripleA engine seems to be able to handle them.
I hope this is clear, and thanks again for the help so far!
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@hyaw said in SBRs: Use Multiple Dice:
However, as for the question I'm really after, how to have the number of dice differ between combat and an SBR
In regular combat the number of dice is handled by 'attackRolls', 'defenseRolls' and 'chooseBestRoll'. All units use 'diceSides'.
A unit which is 'isStrategicBomber' can use 'bombingMaxDieSides' to use a different dice then 'diceSides' but the number of dice used is set by game properties. To have different damages for SBR change 'bombingMaxDieSides' with 'bombingBonus'. To simulate 2d6, set 'bombingMaxDieSides' to '11' with 'bombingBonus' equal to 1. 3d6 would be '16' and '2'.Cheers...
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@hyaw said in SBRs: Use Multiple Dice:
I want instead for one SB to have 2 dice and the other to have 3.
Here is an example using the G 40 Bmbr. It gets 1 die roll +2 bonus on SBR
This is a different unit from the above. "Heavy Bomber" Tech advance will not affect it the way it does the above unit.
It rolls 2 dice with the same +2 bonus. Both dice count.
However, it will roll 2 dice in regular combat also, when not conducting a SBR. If you don't want that, then I think you can add a negative support attachment that would remove a roll.
You would need another unit present in the regular combat in order for the support attachment to work.
I'm not entirely sure if that'll work, limiting the rolls, but I think it does.
wc would know for sure
If that's what you're after
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@beelee said in SBRs: Use Multiple Dice:
Here is an example using the G 40 Bmbr. It gets 1 die roll +2 bonus on SBR
Only if "Use Bombing Max Dice Sides And Bonus" is true. Otherwise "diceSides" is used and no bonus.
@beelee said in SBRs: Use Multiple Dice:
This is a different unit from the above. "Heavy Bomber" Tech advance will not affect it the way it does the above unit.
It rolls 2 dice with the same +2 bonus. Both dice count.False. SBR wise both units will operate the exact same way. Also "heavyBomber" tech will affect both units in the same way.
This is the problem @Hyaw is talking about@beelee said in SBRs: Use Multiple Dice:
However, it will roll 2 dice in regular combat also, when not conducting a SBR. If you don't want that, then I think you can add a negative support attachment that would remove a roll.
"attackRolls" and "defenseRolls" only effect normal combat (There is no 'defense' from the USA_Hvy_Bomber while it is conducting a SBR attack).
Without "heavyBomber" tech only 1 dice is roll during SBR for each "isStrategicBomber" unit. To get USA_Hvy_Bomber's SBR different "bombingMaxDieSides" will need to be set to '11' and the "bombingBonus" set to "3". But the unit will still only roll one dice during SBR.
Cheers...
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To perform an SBR attack, the targeted territory must contain one unit that has "canBeDamaged" and "maxDamage" set.
Using @beelee "bomber" and "USA_Hvy_Bomber", and assuming that all properties concerning SBR are false, and 'diceSides' is not used. Each unit will roll 1d6 and no bonus will be applied. The combined total will be subtracted from the defending player's total PUs.
If "Use Bombing Max Dice Sides And Bonus" is true, then the above is still true as both units have "bombingMaxDiceSides" set to '6' which means each unit will roll 1d6. And a bonus of 4, "bombingBouns" at '2' for each unit, will be removed.Change any other game property, using "heavyBomber" tech applied to both units, and they will still operate during SBR the exact same way.
The only way to create two different bombers is to change "bombingMaxDiceSides" and/or "bombingBonus" and have "Use Bombing Max Dice Sides And Bonus" set to true. Or, apply "heavyBomber" tech to only one unit.
Cheers...
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@wc_sumpton said in SBRs: Use Multiple Dice:
The only way to create two different bombers is to change "bombingMaxDiceSides" and/or "bombingBonus" and have "Use Bombing Max Dice Sides And Bonus" set to true. Or, apply "heavyBomber" tech to only one unit.
yes this is what I have.
The bomber gets 1 die the Heavy gets 2. Hvy gets 2 in regular combat too. Idk if a negative supportAttachment to another unit or more likely, all possible, so as long as you didn't just have Hvy Bmbrs attacking, it would negate a roll or not.
I seem to remember doing one that added a roll, so the inverse should be true as well. Can't remember for sure though
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@beelee said in SBRs: Use Multiple Dice:
The bomber gets 1 die the Heavy gets 2. Hvy gets 2 in regular combat too.
Why does the USA_Hvy_Bomber get 2?
You also have "Damage From Bombing Done To Units Instead Of Territories" as true. This will have no effect on the number of dices used by USA_Hvy_Bomber during SBR.
Cheers...
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@wc_sumpton yea the attack/defense rolls are why they get two is my understanding. The bomb units is so they can kill them in regular combat too. At least I think that's what it does
Idk I just keep throwing spaghetti at the wall until it sticks or does what I want it todo.
Probably not the best approach
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You are right attackRolls/defenseRolls do grant extra dice rolls during air battles and regular combat. maxAAattacks set the rolls for AA. SBR is handled differently. SBR only roll one dice. To get more, "heavyBomber" tech must be used, then the number is set using "Heavy Bomber Dice Rolls".
@beelee said in SBRs: Use Multiple Dice:
Idk I just keep throwing spaghetti at the wall until it sticks or does what I want it todo.
Probably not the best approachWorks for me! Right out of the box!
Cheers...
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@beelee @wc_sumpton
It sounds then like my assumption that SBRs (when Use Bombing Max Dice Sides And Bonus is false) use the number of attackRolls and deal damage equal to the sum of their attack values for however many dice they roll. So if they roll a 1 on two dice under those conditions, they deal 2 damage. I imagine this scales up to however many attackRolls they get, as (if there are no properties or techs that change the rules) they both are considered "combat" in terms of what dice they roll and what values they desire; it's just the results of those rolls that are different, with one being eliminated units and the other damage to PUs or damage to units (if those units have maxDamage and canBeDamaged set to true and Damage From Bombing Done To Units Instead Of Territories is also true. BUT, if I understand how this all interacts, if we turn Bombing Max Dice Sides And Bonus (BMDSAB) to true, then instead of however many attackRolls at their attack value a SB gets when SBRing, they instead only get the number of dice and bonuses declared in BMDSAB. Again, if I understand properly, then it's like an override for SBRs. I imagine the Heavy Bomber Tech set to true changes how BMDSAB acts, in such a way that it overrides BMDSAB SBRs. I wonder how it would work if we tried normal combats and SBRs with BMDSAB=false and HBT=true. -
@hyaw yea idk. You'd have to test it.
Do you want different bmbrs to have different number of rolls on SBR but only 1 roll for Combat ?
Would you give a game example from GW. I'm not entirely sure what you're after
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No, I don't want to simulate what you've described. Instead, I want two different strategic bombers, a normal one and a heavy version, with the following stats:
- SB: in combat, roll 3 dice (d12s) and hit on 2s or lower. When SBRing, roll 2 dice (d6s) and deal their sum in damage.
- HSB: in combat, roll 5 dice (d12s) and hit on 2s or lower. When SBRing, roll 3 dice (d6s) and deal their sum in damage.
So simply using the heavy bomber technology would not work because I need two different bombers to roll different numbers of dice. It's easy enough to tell one of bombers to use d6s in SBRs by using Bombing Max Dice Sides And Bonus, but because that's a property that affects all strategic bombers, regardless of their stat differences (in this case, the different number of dice that they should use), it fails to provide a third die for HSBs. And I think using Heavy Bomber Tech is right out by the unpredictability of how it affects everything else and the fact that it changes how normal combats work, as I can easily get the different types of SBs to work properly in normal combats with attackRolls=[3 or 5, depending] and attack=2 options.
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@hyaw well ... both bombers do use different amount of dice.
I'm obviously misunderstanding.
Might be a triplea limitation. Hope you can get it to work No technologhy is used in my xml Bomber bombs at 1 die Hvy bmbr at 2
The negative support attachment can make them only have one combat regular roll.
I think
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You are correct, and I bow to your superiority!
PoS2:
attackRolls values: number of rolls this unit gets on attack (default = 1) defenseRolls values: number of rolls this unit gets on defense (default = 1) chooseBestRoll values: true/false, whether we pick the best dice or use all dice rolls, when there is more than one roll (default false). When in Low Luck, we instead add +1 onto the power for each extra roll.This is not very clear, as these 3 options effect normal battles, air battles and SBR battles, but does not effect AA combat. It is a very tangle mess of code.
Cheers...
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SBRs can only hit one target. So, it's not so much about the dice as it is the range of damage. ie: 2d6 = 2-12 damage so 3d5 -2 = 3-2 - 15-2 or a range of 1-13. The use of 5 dice to get a range of 3-18 (3d6) so use 5d4 -2 = 5-2 - 20-2 for a range of 3-18. The ranges are not exact, but it does give some food for thought.
Cheers...
