Mega New Elk WIP
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MNE WIP '40 version 1.35.10.zip
MNE WIP '40 version 1.35.10
New starting setup by @Black_ElkAccording to my count there are only the following territories with a PUs value of 3 and can have a factory_major:
Berlin
London-S.England
Moscow-Cen.Russia
Sydney Canberra-New South Wales
Tokyo
Washington D.C.
Chicago
Milan-N.Italy
New York-New Jersey
Rhineland
San Francisco-Cen.CaliforniaCheers...
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Sounds good! We can always boost up from there. I like this lower value approach to the production spread, I think it makes the board somewhat easier to parse.
I'd say right now that the French are surely having an outsized impact on the Allied war effort, mostly on accounting of purchasing Carriers and Bombers and such from Gabon hehe. While it certainly makes them a bit more interesting to play, it's probably a bit too overpowered. After a few rounds of them making the big ticket buys the effect is magnified, since their income is still relatively high. Probably they will work well using the China rules though, so that's always an option for a reset once we get it figured.
Currently the computer's defense of USSR's is pretty fragile. So we'll still have to see what can be done for them. It's possible we just need to get Germany into Leningrad a bit earlier, so that line can reset, otherwise USSR will defend it with everything available and stack there at the expense of just about everywhere else.
The computer already trades pretty inefficiently with fodder, HardAI in particular will edge all it's combat moves, making almost every attack by the computer very narrow and very swingy. They will frequently go light into combat, then often just end up moving the same units they held in reserve forward on Non Com anyway.
If computer prevails in their narrower attacks they do reasonably well, but if they dud or whiff, the lines can be easy to roll up. It's a bit awkward and they push their fronts rather slower than one might hope. Potentially I think USSR could be formidable if they also used China rules, but right now Japan will sorta nail up into Siberia if they don't reinforce or get lucking just sorta blundering into a defense with an Inf stack hehe. They do love their bombers, which is amusing to see - like who would have thought? lol In any case, probably will take some fine tuning to get them purchasing more regularly, or perhaps to find an alternative way of approaching USSR reinforcement when controlled by the AI.
For the Torch dynamic in the Med, I think the Sicily factory may have backfired, and made it a little too easy for computer Italy to stack there, but that could also have been the extra couple dudes I put in their backyard changing up their line. I'll have to run some more tests with the current to see how it shakes down game to game. Basically the goal is to get Allies more into Africa so they can pressure the boot and open a front down in Sicily, Southern Italy or in the Balkans. Might have been one step forward 2 back, but least it got Greece working, so we can keep working it up from there.
I figure we'll have the full slate of options in PvP or solo vs AI to increase challenge by sides or for player parity, but I think if it works under the more Classic do or die conditions, that could only help in getting a more nuanced thing dialed. Say for USSR Japan NAP, or staging J1 or neutral control a bit for USA to more accurately reflect the timeline of the start date. Pretty fun so far though
Big strides!
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Rome-Cen.Italy should have a factory_minor because of it's 2PUs status. Milan-N.Italy is 3PUs and does have a factory_major for Italians.
Cheers...
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Right on, makes sense. I will probably end up removing the Sicily minor next out, just so they're not stomping too hard. Chicago I think could be reduced down to a more normal 2 PUs, just so it's not too much of a standout, I don't anticipate much action there. Makes sense to shift somewhere more contested I'd imagine.
Speaking of which, probably makes sense to have Paris at 3 PU in that case, since they start with a Major there. Even though it is immediately conquered and downgraded to a factory_minor, would make sense to have at whatever level matches the starting situation.
I think we could probably shift the PUs from Orleans or Vichy to make that happen for Paris. Or probably would make sense to shift the other PU to Bordeaux while we're at it, since I'm thinking that Minor might need to make a comeback.
I've been running some FastAI games just to see how it compares to the HardAI for the pattern.
Right now there is a bit of a challenge in getting a Battle of the Atlantic up off the ground, mainly on account the coastal production locations being somewhat inconvenient for Axis placement, and relatively easy for Allies to cover.
Bordeaux would probably make sense as a starting minor factory location to give ok coverage vs the Atlantic while not being just right on top of London, but the issue is more that Germany just won't really purchase many subs regardless. If they're dropping naval it's usually to get defense power in the water and the placement limits favor the heavier hitting more expensive builds. We had it there initially though, in Bordeaux, so might just go back to that. I think it might be ideal if we can get Germany to snag Marseille on G1, or so the Italians don't checkerboard France too hard. That might require a bit of a tweak. I'll go back to the lab tonight and see if we can't tease something out there.
I think for a generic solution we can always just give Germany a few more subs to work with at the outset in the Atlantic, perhaps a bit further south so it doesn't jack up the approaches to North Africa too much. Or perhaps a way for players to place subs at some set distance from a given Coastal Factory. So for example placing subs directly into the Atlantic gap. It's a bit of a challenge just because of the way the computer (and most players) will treats subs more as attack/defense stacked with the other ships, rather than prowling. Creating special conditions or rules for that is something I was hoping we might be able to work around for now, since it's a bit of a can of worms.
Allowing Subs to place at some further distance from the coastal complexes than the normal surface ships seems like it could work, but not sure if that can be achieved with just regular vanilla factories, or short of some sort of spawn per turn mechanic. Again for the AI there are probably options there, but for now just sorta thinking about where they might need those starting coastal factories just to have a chance to get out on the water hehe.
Will be tinkering around the margins for sure. Good stuff!
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
Allowing Subs to place at some further distance from the coastal complexes than the normal surface ships seems like it could work
Working on the North Africa map, for @VictoryFirst , there is a need to spawn German subs away from "production locations". To accomplish this, I created a canal that connect those locations. Because subs can use canals, even if they are not owned by the controlling power, they were able to be placed/spawned at that location. So, if you want distance spawning of subs, tell which location would be used and I'll create the "special" canals that link to those locations.
Cheers...
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
Speaking of which, probably makes sense to have Paris at 3 PU in that case, since they start with a Major there.
I see a minor factory at Paris, so it can be raised to 3PUs and start with a major factory. Will include it in the next change.
Cheers...
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Sounds like a plan
For now I did a rework of the situation in France G1...
2025-3-11-Mega-New-Elk-1940.tsvg
I moved the starting Italian force from Milan to Rome, then positioned a German force in Milan with Armor to reach Bordeaux. I think this gives a more satisfying sweep since it basically puts more of France under German control after G1, and less about Italy launching over there to gobble it up. Again mainly for the computer to open well.
It seemed helpful for the visual too, just to call attention to fact that some German units are located on Italian starting territory (the same way Brits and French start co-located in a few places),. The idea being that we sorta draw the players eye downward first to Milan and then to North Africa where there are is also a pocket force for the Afrika Corps. In any event, gives the right sort of push I think.
I removed the factory in Sicily and Gabon, added back the factory in Bordeaux. Left the rest the same so as not to shift the dynamic too much.
I think for Sub further than coastal placement, this may require a visual either with some convoy markers or just to differentiate those zones in some way. So perhaps say wherever the starting coastal factories are located we could establish a convoy in that sz, with a control flag and such. Then it makes it easier to see the spawn locations for submarines. I think it would be ideal to have something that works the same way for all nations, just so that say USA could do it in the Pacific, or maybe Italy in the med, that sort of thing.
For now the main Atlantic gap is basically sz 103, sz 108, where the north Atlantic subs are prepositioned. I grouped them so it'd easier to see. Probably the idea spot to trial it, since those spots are both a distance of 2 from the coastal factory minors in France.
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
I removed the factory in Sicily and Gabon, added back the factory in Bordeaux. Left the rest the same so as not to shift the dynamic too much.
I've raised Bordeaux to 2PUs. I'll leave Sicily and Gabon alone, unless you want them reduced to 1PUs.
Cheers...
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Good call, yeah I think that should work out nicely. Fun times!
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MNE WIP '40 version 1.35.10.zip
MNW WIP '40 version 1.35.11
Chicago, Bordeaux changed to 2PUs
Paris changed to 3PUs
New starting lineup by @Black_Elk
Submarines can now be placed in sz 103 and sz 108 from a minor factory located at Bordeaux.Cheers...
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@wc_sumpton Cookin' now!
Here was my first trial to round 5, tapping in as France...
2025-3-11-Mega-New-Elk-1940_France_5.tsvg
This time computer Allies went more North towards Norway and tried to harass the computer Germans in that direction. Computer Russia had a revenge wipe vs the Baltic Fleet, so then computer Germans dropped a pocket fleet in the Med. Pretty interesting thus far! The impact from France just having that delay of a round before they can get up and running I think was also helpful. Saw some solid back and forth across the Central Pacific too. So far feels about right hehe
Good times! Excellent work there with the quick turn around
Quickie screen
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LyNA_WRYZYSSDf9bZJsfpdhnYqBni0lI/view?usp=sharing
ps. Same show right before round 10.
This time tapping in on computer Soviet's turn to grab the save in round 9
2025-3-11-Mega-New-Elk-1940_Russia_9.tsvg
Computer Axis were determined not get kicked off the water I guess, and rebuilt their fleet in the Med hehe. Some pretty good fireworks all around! lol Computer D Day seemed to work nicely
Quickie screen
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_Oqzj4_KOfr9emDG_B2TV7gGEi9YmLOc/view?usp=sharing
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Nice to see you're having fun, though I thought you were going to sleep.
@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
Excellent work there with the quick turn around
I have developed a process to do this. But thank you for the complement.
Cheers...
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Yeah insomnia, per the usual hehe
From the games I just ran I'd say FastAI is producing the better play pattern for my sensibility. I think it would be a more entertaining opponent in the solo. Pretty similar to the HardAI except that FastAI seems to shuffle around a bit more, and throws a couple extra hitpoints into it's attacks here and there. Sometimes HardAI would seem to get stuck in a rut, where FastAI will occasionally launch forward or force an exchange. I think probably I would key it off FastAI from here, maybe with a bonus to the machine for added challenge. At this income level even something like 5-10% resource modifier could be pretty major. Going from say Normal challenge, to Hard or Very Hard mode.
Also if the nation is computer AI control, it might make sense to option on an extra factory for spots that can support one at 2 PU as way to increase challenge, perhaps similar to the way it searches to find the second capital spot if the first one falls. Or like 1 per round, something along those lines. Generally though the computer plays an alright game, and will at least push it's stacks.
It may make sense to locate a 2 PU spot in the middle of the board say Baghdad, just so that if Axis reach that far they will have a control zone that can produce potentially.
Here's a quick game to round 6 using the same but FastAI, tapping in for France at that point for the save.
2025-3-11-Mega-New-Elk-1940_France_Fast_6.tsvg
ps. Here's another to the same point, FastAI, where computer France did rather less well. Computer Germans beat them to the punch, then computer Brits moved in lol
2025-3-11-Mega-New-Elk-1940_France_Fast_6_dunzo.tsvg
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Okay insomniac, here is something for you.
MNE WIP '40 version 1.35.12.zip
Chek what happens when the French lose their capital and all territories that can produce.
Paris, Normandy, Orleans, Bordeaux, Vichy, Marseille, Turnis, Algiers and Gabon.Cheers...
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Oh wow! This is very cool!
So this achieves something I like a lot. It standardizes and makes more-universal a rule that is otherwise sorta complicated coming over from AA50 and G40. It also allows us to use the China placement rules in a more flexible way, which I think could help in multiple scenarios/timelines beyond just this one.
I would suggest then that we lower the PU value of Chunking to 1 PU and raise Peking to 2 PUs. This will describe why China is operating in the way that it is at the game's start (ie since their pre-war capital is already under Japanese occupation). The traditional rationale there is something like 'cause China is Pre-Industrial', but it could also work and make sense for any situation where the Industrial Complexes are in smoldering ruins after capitals have fallen. So for example perhaps something similar could be used as a way to simulate other types of belligerent factions, say Rebellions/Revolutions, Civil Wars, Partisans etc. depending on the scenario or the timeline.
The handling of the Dutch and Mongolians (which are another form of one off G40 rule) I think can be understood via an analogy to the Pro-Side neutral mechanics. Basically describes how they are working anyway, so there's some harmony and universality there, with how that stuff all works.
For Submarine coastal placement at the distance, this could be an opportunity to standardize how Convoys will be treated here on this board and to determine where we locate them. Perhaps with a wording in the rules like 'Subs may be placed into a controlled Convoy SZ, up to 2 spaces from an operational coastal factory' or something along those lines?
Using the scheme that shows the control Flag and awards 1 PU on the water, these Convoy spots can also indicate where the wolf packs can prowl with placement into the Atlantic gap. Or similarly we could have one or two such Convoys for the main factions, in each major naval theater. Or basically for any of the spots where we want to see this sort of back-and forth going down. Example, USA might place subs into the Pacific at some similar locations disrupting Japan's local supply lanes, or Britain and Italy might mess with each other in the Med this way.
Gives us a ready way to locate where such spots might make sense. Under this scheme 'Convoy lanes' would be in the more intermediate spots, or transit tiles, using the system that awards 1 PU and shows a control flag displayed. This also leaves open the option to include "Blockade" or interdiction type mechanics using the more regular Convoy system/graphic from G40, as well, if one wants to allow subs/ships to do the whole raiding of coastal production thing. In my view that system is somewhat involved because it includes a count/calc of the Coastal PUs controlled by the opponent, and also a roll. I think I would probably hold that option in reserve, since it introduces a lot of complexity and likely the Fast/Hard AI would not really have the grasp on it.
Beyond the convoy stuff, really the only other specialty one/off type rule is Japan's Kamikaze aircraft. The 'Blockade' symbols of G40 and the Kamikaze symbols drawn on the board would give some familiarity with the vanilla global, but I think we could probably come up with a simpler presentation, perhaps where Kamikazes can attack into the Convoy sea zones (the PU version that shows the flag for control) as well as into any sea zone adjacent a coastal production center (just so it harmonizes with the subs thing too.) Something like that I think would make sense, and give us some smaller amount of income/production being contested directly in the water. Might be cool
Quick 5 round game, this time playing as Germany Solo vs FastAI Allies, just to see what sort of press I could make vs the machine.
This was my opener... I went a little light vs the British/French combo fleet - only just barely pulled it off with the uboat. I think here we can say that G1 is essentially 1940 Fall of France to 41 start of Barbarossa, just all compressed into a single turn (sorta like a film reel montage for the war to that point) so catching us up to speed there.
2025-3-12-Mega-New-Elk-1940_G1.tsvg
And then here we are at the start of round 6
2025-3-12-Mega-New-Elk-1940_G6.tsvg
quick screen of my first actual game going through the motions
It was pretty fun! I did the sort of classic Rookie move of building a carrier and edging my sub attacks high risk just to showboat. I did place a couple new subs in the second G2 round just to confirm it, but then thought I'd try for Leningrad with the newly minted Baltic Fleet carrier. Much to my surprise the Russians schooled me with a Bomber stack, even though I had just watched that happen to computer Germans in the last game! You'd think I would have learned from their mistake haha.
As if to rub it in they also made a fleet build before bouncing on Leningrad, salt in the wounds, and sort of humiliating for our admiralty. I found myself similarly desperate to stay on the water and so tried to get a build in from the Med. We screwed over our Computer Italian buds in the process, making an escape to Marseille with what remained of my naval ambitions. Fortunately I was able to pick apart the Eastern Front to compensate, so we're still in the running. Took a couple hits at Normandy already. So far so good!
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
I would suggest then that we lower the PU value of Chunking to 1 PU and raise Peking to 2 PUs.
What would be the unit per territory value. French start with over 40 territories. At a 1:2 ratio, they could possibly receive 20+. Right now, I have it set at 1:4, which seems weak for China.
I'm not restricting placement; any territory they own is good.
Cheers...
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@wc_sumpton Yeah I was thinking the same thing earlier, that it could be quite impactful, potentially too overpowered depending on the timing there. Like if only dozen or so territories remaining then sure, perhaps the overall effect isn't too crazy at that point. I wouldn't want to go too nuts since it's sort of an untested proof of concept. Also since with China we can always give a few more units or more support from nearby Allies to keep that theater in balance.
Couple things I noticed from the last run... First was that AAguns were getting captured (v3 style rather than with the fodder hp v5 style), took me a while to notice but that's a few frontline hitpoints there. Oh and second was when I made a run for Pro Axis Persia with Italy, the units in place over their weren't joining the team when I moved, like they did when we moved on Iraq. Maybe cause I just edited control last time when I did that rather than like starting control? Not sure, but anyhow they were just hanging out alongside my guys haha
Anyhow for the ratios I think keying off what makes sense for China make the most sense, since the other concept is more niche and sorta just to keep France interesting, though I was having fun with them. I was sorta working through the turn order sequence in reverse just to see if it felt worthwhile to play as the smaller factions. I had fun
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French have a lot of 2PUs territories, so it should take longer to reduce them. So, I'll try 1:3. Also all PUs are removed.
Cheers...
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MNE WIP '40 version 1.35.13.zip
(notifications.properties included)aaGun can now be taken a casualty
Peking-Tientsin is now Chinese Capital at 2PUs and a damaged factory_minor added
Chungking changed to 1PUs
LoP (Loss of Protection)
Ownership of 2/3 PUs territory w/o factory, granted factory_minor
No ownership of 2/3 PUs territory will receive 1 infantry per every 2 territories owned
May place 3 per territory up to a maximum of 8 units per territory during placementCheers...
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@wc_sumpton Looking sweet!
I like this very much. In terms of a general design philosophy and the basics on the rules and presentation, I like when we can have that sort of universality or symmetry to how the stuff works between factions just so it's easy to pick up.
Some random spitballing. So right now VCs are sorta more incidental and can of course be dialed. The starting VCs and bases are visual cues and gameplay drivers, but really it's more down to controlling the minor factory hubs and the back and forth there to control production/income round to round. This vs the placement restrictions generally (like how many hit points each faction can bring to bear, and from what locations.) Specific rules and win conditions by VC or capital capture/purse stealing and cash, those just need to be sorta stated, and then helpfully clarified on the map with a visualization. So it's nice when we can say things like "territories worth 2 PU" or VCs, and have it sort of generalize in a way that's easy to parse at a glance. I dig it
The concept of Original ownership for territory/VC etc, that is somewhat difficult to handle from the standpoint of a map that could service multiple scenarios or timelines but I think this will work. I think we can start with the 40 I mean for that. So on the physical boards, there is always some standard treatment there for the default ownership painted on the board, I mean that is the baked-in, then we have the control roundel which can be used to change starting control around. So starting control is sorta what we see displayed when we first launch right, and it's hard if we want to go back to say 1939 from 1940, to have the player guessing at what the original owner control would be from that standpoint. Basically to know whether a territory will be liberated for themselves or a teammate, if that wouldn't be clearly indicated from the visual on the map somehow at game launch. Reason I mention is because, things like original owner USSR or China, for territories under occupation at the start date. Here I think we just go by the World War II global arrangement, and key it off 40ish.
I think if we can just handle 1940-45 that would be pretty satisfying in itself. 1936-9 is pretty ambitious and would likely require more rules overhead, perhaps a different production spread and handling for original ownership, I'd table it for now as something we can attempt down the line. Whereas for this one 1940 can be more starting flavor. Really the scenario is designed to jump us from 1940 well into 1941 by basically the first turn of the game.
In the way I envision, G1 is essentially the 1940-41 recap turn. Really everyone's first turn is like that in some way, catching the player up in a compressed timeline. Like a film reel montage. The timeline there is condensed, say Fall of France into early Barbarossa. In the same way Britain attacks into Italian Somaliland on their first turn and makes a little hit vs Regia Marina, but elsewhere is more 41. Japan's turn captures the 1940-41 as well. So effectively the first 2 game rounds are catching us all up and well into a 1941-2 ish dynamic. The familiar one from the classic game - total war conditions, where all factions are already belligerents and the politics are more simplistic.
For Subs I think we will just need a very simplistic way to describe and visualize how their placement might work more generally. I like that there is a convention for this now on a standard board that we can lean on. I think that will definitely help to support the concept.
Some basic wording like 'can place into adjacent Convoy zones' and then we just find an easy way to describe that adjacency or visualize that stuff on the map. Determining where those spots might be and just making them real easy to spot at a glance. Usually we got some kind of flag to make it make sense and then use the starting units there to indicate control. Effectively allowing players to place at a range there would be the idea.
This could potentially be something we reserve for a tech tree or a more advanced game layered on top of the more basic too, I'm still not sure. The idea being that Germany might have some kind of placement bonus for their subs which allows this to happen, as part of their standard tech, or standard unlocks that maybe happen in the second round. Perhaps each faction gets 1 special tech, but since that would be an asymmetry, these could be things that are staged in and made very clear. So if it happens in round 2 as opposed to round 1, might be easier. I'm still trying to think about how to introduce these concepts and one easy way would be something like that.
Example on the first turn of the game, everyone has a tech advance/prompt that reads something like "Factory Rail: grant +1 movement to ground units" so they're all on the same page. Maybe Germany gets an "Advanced Subs" standard tech, which allows them to place at a distance in the way we were describing. Other techs could similarly go to other Nations for something like National flare or period/historical flavor, though I think I would exercise restraint here, and make that more of an option on/off for now, just to keep things simplistic while we dial the production and starting unit spreads. Could be a way to do it. For now I'm pretty happy with the basic thrust of the thing. I think it's pretty serviceable and should be adaptable for other purposes, though it's nice to have something fun we can just sorta hammer away at. The computer did surprisingly well FastAI. I think the Machine struggles a bit with it's transports, probably owing to the fact that it's still sorta moving those as if it were playing Revised or Classic, rather than the post v3 style transports, but the impact there of their transports goofs is not quite as insane just because they have more cash for transport attrition/replacement. The Fast/HardAIs purchasing behavior seems to stabilize around the player after a few turns, so they still put me through my paces. I've got another game going as Italy right now hehe
Good times! great work
ps. FastAI playing the long game against itself hehe
I tapped in as France after 16 rounds. I think the computer maybe had a KJF plan and to hold the center wedge, but then it sorta went bust. When they let computer Germany overrun the south and lock them out of the Med, things started to turn back the other way. Computer USA is pushing into Manchuria from the north Pacific route, sorta leaving Brits to their own devices in Europe and Africa. Pretty entertaining to observe. FastAI is fast, but also cautious. It likes to halo around the periphery and stack forward slow and steady, but it's kinda amusing to watch how it stabilizes it's fronts to battle for control over the long haul. Probably it goes 20 rounds against itself I'd imagine, which to me indicates a pretty good production spread. Basically doing what I was hoping it might there.
2025-3-12-Mega-New-Elk-1940_France_Fast_16.tsvg
pps. Oh also one last thought, for USA, since the machine doesn't buy factories really, I think there should be another factory_minor on the Eastern seaboard, just for parity with what's over on the pacific side. I'd just put one in Carolina since it borders both those sea zones. Abstractly the starting factories sorta cover all the surrounding tiles in much the same way that the rail +1 reflects the same. So it's more about just giving them enough placement hitpoints per turn for both theaters. I think should be sufficient to have them pushing in both directions at once, least for how the computer plays typically.
For the Capital display, I think an easy solution would be to do a show Capital marker flags for that, and then it will indicate the specific location if there would be any confusion players can option that on. Right now it would use the large flag puck, but could be whatever. Just a way to indicate which spot if player's want the option. Right now if I set to true in map props it will display sorta right over the VC star, but I can move the stars in the VC place so it displays more cleanly, was going to do that anyway to sorta get the stars in the right spots. But anyway, that should make it easy to see.
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