EXP Game 1 Trout vs Johnny Cat

[beelee]

@trout

Hi Trout

I think what happens to the Mongols when attacked by SSR is that they turn Pro Axis so you have to move a dude in NCM to take them over. Same as Finland and Bulgaria Iraq

Edit
So what happens at the start of Early 1941, turn 3, the Mongols are treated as a "True Neutral" which means that an attack on them would turn All True Neutrals to Pro Axis.

For this game, I would just let the Mongols and not all the other Neutrals turn Pro Axis as it's too far along to go back and redo it.

I assume Cat wouldn't have attacked them if he knew that.

So the Mongols can't move. Jpn or any Axis player, has to move in NCM to activate the TTy and any units in it to JPN control. Triplea does this correctly.

So I would move the Mongol Inf back to there starting TTys and return control to the Mongols, except for the one SSR already conquered of course

Starting with last turn J6 JPN can then move the Inf from Chahar to Central Mongolia in NCM and it will turn Japanese

It's important to note that triplea will allow you to move M2 units and activate more than 1 TTy. That is incorrect. Once you move into a Pro Axis or Allied TTy in NCM, you have to stop whether you have movement left or not.

AAGuns also can't take control of the TTy which triplea will allow.

Edit 2
So to sum up, OOB rules which are in affect the first 2 RDs, if JPN attacks Mongolia or any Russian TTy bordering Mongolia, the Mongols immediately turn Russian including there units.

If Russia attacks Mongolia, all Mongol TTys become Pro Axis. Same as Finland, Bulgaria etc ... triplea does both of these correctly.

In HouseRulesExpansion beginning turn 3, Mongols become a True/Strict Neutral. An attack on one Neutral turns all the other Neutrals Pro to the side that didn't attack.

Russia is only player that doesn't do that. I guess I should change it but it's a pita and it's easy enough just to edit the Neutrals to at War.

I don't necessarily like thoese rules but that's what they are

[JohnnyCat]

@beelee Thanks B

@Trout Dear GINO (Good in Name Only and ACTUALLY VERY EVIL)

There is one point that I wish us all to confirm and that is the Mongolian Rule B mentioned about turn 3 turning into a "True Neutral" - I cannot find that. Could you please post where that is?

I do, however, know that this "Mongolian Rule" concept is something talked about a bunch by people that I have been tracking a little bit on line. Plus that guy Evan in Sacramento that is still planning to come to San Jose to play the actual boardgame with me on Feb 6 told me a couple weeks ago about the Mongolian Rule and how important it is. He also told me that that the do not magically turn into Japanese Banzai dudes that can instantly invade central Russia - that shocked me when I opened the map, hahahahahahah. But hey, great job trying that Field Marshal @trout

And yes I WOULD NOT HAVE ATTACKED that one guy had I known doing so would unleash Alien vs. Predator monsters in the middle of Russia... so GET OUTTA THERE...

here is the rule that I do know:

Source:
https://axisallies.com/global-1940-second-edition-rules/

Soviet-Mongolian Defense Pact: Due to their mutual border conflict with Japan in 1939, the Soviet Union and Mongolia have a special relationship. The Mongolian territories (Olgiy, Dzavhan, Tsagaan-Olom, Central Mongolia, Ulaanbaatar, and Buyant-Uhaa) will never become pro-Axis unless one or more of them is attacked by the Soviet Union. Also, if Japan attacks any Soviet-controlled territory that is adjacent to any Mongolian territory, all Mongolian territories that are still strict neutral or pro-Allies, or have joined the Allies as a result of a failed Japanese attack, will be placed under the control of the Soviet Union at the end of Japan’s Conduct Combat phase. This will be done in the same manner as though the Soviet Union had moved land units into a friendly neutral territory (see ‘Friendly Neutrals‘). These territories will have Soviet control markers placed on them, and their standing army units will be placed on the board using Soviet pieces and will be controlled by the Soviet Union player from then on. This will occur regardless of the state of relations between the Soviet Union and Japan at the time of the attack, with one exception: If the Soviet Union has attacked Korea or any Japanese-controlled territory bordering these Mongolian territories while Mongolia was still a strict neutral, Mongolia will remain neutral and not
ally itself with the Soviet Union.

In all other respects and for all other purposes, the Mongolian territories are treated as any other strict neutral territory. For example, if a Mongolian territory is attacked by Japan while still a strict neutral, all of the other strict neutral territories will become pro-Allies.

[Trout]

@johnnycat I may never fully understand how that rule works. But I am tied up with work all day today and tomorrow so feel free to edit to pull back any Mongols into their family homes and move forward with your US/China/UK turn. Thx

[JohnnyCat]

@trout ok no worries. I’m
Busy too so we’ll just see how it goes.

I get the rule though. It’s just like dealing into Brazil as an ally. In non combat move phase your guys walk into the axis allied country and they magically POOF turn into your guys.

Next turn they take orders as is the usual case.

[beelee]

@johnnycat said in EXP Game 1 Trout vs Johnny Cat:

Mongolian Rule B mentioned about turn 3 turning into a "True Neutral"

I recently asked the Captain this

Mongolian Rule B mentioned about turn 3 turning into a "True Neutral"

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/assets/uploads/files/1768059247549-6.g40-strict-neutrals.pdf

Edit
yea the Mongols are a bit confusing but as stated above

*So to sum up, OOB rules which are in affect the first 2 RDs, if JPN attacks Mongolia or any Russian TTy bordering Mongolia, the Mongols immediately turn Russian including there units.

If Russia attacks Mongolia, all Mongol TTys become Pro Axis. Same as Finland, Bulgaria etc ... triplea does both of these correctly.

In HouseRulesExpansion beginning turn 3, Mongols become a True/Strict Neutral. An attack on one Neutral turns all the other Neutrals Pro to the side that didn't attack.

Russia is only player that doesn't do that. I guess I should change it but it's a pita and it's easy enough just to edit the Neutrals to at War.*

Edit 2
Actually if JPN attacks Mongolia, it will activate the Strict/True Neutrals. Idky theres two names

So basically what happens in most OOB games is SSR attacks JPN, this makes the Mongols Strict Neutrals.

Or JPN attacks SSR and that flips the Mongols to Russian. If JPN directly attacks Mongolia it would also have to DOW on the True Neutrals as well and you can see that triplea does that correctly.

So the first 2 RDs played with OOB Mongol Rules triplea does correctly.
Starting RD3 when it switches to HRE Rules, Russia should also have to DOW on the True Neutrals in order to attack Mongolia.
Right now Russia can still DOW on just the Mongols as in OOB. I guess I will change that at some point.

Edit 3
Well actually what Cat posted is how they work lol

[JohnnyCat]

@trout OK my friend (Ah I mean contemptuous enemy)

I am starting my turn and there is really only one question for you regarding the Mongolian thing.

Here is a photo of the start. Hope I can load it.

Since Mongolia is now "Axis Allied" you can walk or drive into that land during non-combat phase and the territory that you touch, and any guys in it, turn to Japanese.

so the only question here is do you want one of your evil Jap Rap guys to walk or drive into Central Mongolia or Tsagaan Olom to claim it. Then the next turn, you could conceivably get to the 4 guys in Dzavhan and touch them guys during the non combat move and then they turn into Jap guys. I am not sure if you get to move them right away or not but I def know they cannot attack because you can only turn them to the dark side during non-combat moving.

So I will take my turn if you don't mind and you can decide what you want to do regarding the journey into Ghengis land and whether or not you want to get those 4 guys - but ya gotta touch them in a non-combat phase. And that will take two turns to get any of your guys there with this situation as it is.

[beelee]

@johnnycat

heh heh

Johnny you are so eloquent So the 4 Mongols need to be placed at there starting TTys.

Disregard Buyant since stalin ordered there destruction

[beelee]

@trout @JohnnyCat

so I would suggest something like this

You will need to adjust the PU level for Yeniesy, so -1 JPN

Edit
This is current

Edit 2
Actually wherever the Mongols went they have to come back and SSR could then move some other dudes instead

Or I guess it was JPN that moved them ? Idk

Edit

Edit again

@Trout just noticed you got 2 Elite Panzers in E POL. Can only have 1 same as the Inf.

Edit
I guess just stick it in ROM or E POL be easiest

[JohnnyCat]

@Trout @beelee

Happy Saturday Gents, Attached is the updated map with Mongolian fixed

I know this allied neutrals thing can seem strange. But once I figured it out I totally got it - it's just not very intuitive.

I found it best to look at it like AN INFECTION. heehee

Until you touch it, it does not affect you. But once you send in one of your guys to touch them, they all become yours.

In this case I am still wondering what can happen next turn so hopefully @beelee could tell us more, but I am totally confident that the map shown is the ONLY way that @trout can start the process.

The big question seems to me to be how automatically does the transformation go in the future turns...

Anyway I will post my turn now and later today - USA and China and UK

PS I decremented the Mighty Japanese Bank 1 Banana since they did not get that Russian territory after all.

uh oh that edit did not take - I need to fix that file again... I will post it later today

[JohnnyCat]

@Trout @beelee

USA Turn 6 is complete - Before I can do China 6 we need to resolve the Mongolian decision

First I restored Mongolia to its original state.

And took 1 PU out of the Japan bank since no Russian territory was taken.

Japan Turn 6 you moved 1 Inf from Chahar to Suiyuyan and got 1 PU from China.

There was no non-combat move into Mongolia - because you were not aware of how that worked. To fix that, If you prefer, you could give up that 1 PU and that territory and move instead to Central Mongolia (during the Non Combat Phase) which then converts Mongolia to your ownership.

EDIT: keep in mind that you still need to touch each Mongolian territory during a non-combat move, converting any inf there to Japanese as you do it. It would take 1 jap inf one turn to touch an adjacent Mongolian thus turning it. Then the next Jap non-combat phase you would have two jap inf to move to try and nab the other Mongolians..

In any case - We need to resolve this before China can move their Turn 6

And WOW this is turning into a very interesting game. Still easily could go either way - though I still think the Axis have the edge.

1768423982018-4b6f0d46-b138-478d-a0a3-27d45110ae38-exp-game-1-jc-CHINA_6.tsvg

The game notes:

104f0b47-e97c-438e-8757-c6cb9b3af6f8-exp-game-1-jc-CHINA 6 GAME NOTES.txt

[beelee]

@johnnycat

The mongol TTys are activated individually

[JohnnyCat]

@beelee Yea I thought so - that makes sense too - thank you for clarifying.

In this USA turn I actually spaced sending a bomber and almost lost one of those battles. But now the game is looking very interesting

I am quite concerned about Field Marshall @Trout German Horde!!! Barbarossaaaaaaa

[beelee]

@johnnycat

Yea Mongols are correct now. Only thing that'd change is if he wanted to move the Chahar Inf into w/e Mongol TTy that is. He coulda done that or used a Mech from Jehol, so I'd just say F it and do China UK.

He can adjust with a Mech to Mongolia if needed

Edit
@Trout Note that if you do move the Mech to Mongolia and it moves again next ncm, triplea will let it move 2. Can only move 1 when activating a Pro Neutral

[Trout]

@beelee So here's what I understand and don't

1. J attacks Amur in first two turns - Mongol territory and dudes fully Soviet without restriction (experts confirmed this in another game)
2. R attacks Manchuria or Korea in first two turns - Mongols remain neutral (very clear in OOB rulebook)
3. J attacks Amur after first two turns - IPC penalty. Mongolia remains neutral unless attacked. If attacked, then fully Soviet (may be wrong here based on what you guys are saying)
4. R attacks J after first two turns - IPC penalty. Mongolia remains neutral unless attacked. If attacked, then fully J but you guys are saying that's definitely wrong.

So first question: Am I correct about the first two turns what happens?
Secondly, after first two turns is it not correct that Mongolia stays neutral unless attacked?
Thirdly, I don't see them just becoming pro-Axis if R attacks them outright anywhere in the rulebook. Was that a clarification from Captain or otherwise what am I missing?

[Trout]

@johnnycat Hey JC. Yes, go forward with your China/UK turn. It's a learner's game and whatever I need to do to correct something can be worked out on my next R turn. I am pretty busy today and I still don't understand the Mongolia rules but asked Beelee for clarification

[beelee]

@trout

Hi Trout

yea 1 and 2 are correct. In HRE starting RD 3 Mongolia is a Strict/True Neutral. An attack on it by either SSR or JPN will then activate all the other Neutrals to Pro whoever didn't attack Mongolia.

That is why triplea has a Politics option "DOW on the Mongolians and True Neutrals" for everyone except SSR.

So JPN can't attack Mongolia without DOW on all the Neutrals too.
In OOB, OutOFBox for cat, the original game rules not the mod, #1 happens and the Mongols turn Soviet.

Then JPN can attack them without the need to DOW on all the Neutrals because they are Russian now.

Soviets DOW JPN and attack Manchuria or Korea. Mongols will not turn soviet. If however Soviets DOW on JPN and don't attack Manchuria or Korea and then JPN attacks Amur, the Mongols will flip to Russian control.

Pretty Fckd right ? Confused yet

For HRE if no DOW has happened the Mongols just turn True Neutral for rest of game.

I don't have it coded so SSR has to DOW on the True Neutrals the way all the other Countries do. It is coded OOB.

So when Cat attacked Mongolia triplea activated Mongolia as a Pro Axis Neutral which then allows JPN to move in in NCM and take control of the TTy same as Finland or Bulgaria.

I suggest just playing it out like that as it would fuck your game if all the Neutrals switch to Pro Axis as cat didn't know that rule.

In OOB Russian attack on Mongolia can be separate

Edit
Bottom line is triplea does it correctly except the Russian attack on Mongolia turn 3 and on doesn't require a DOW on the Neutrals. It all works correctly for how the Mongols work by turning Pro Axis in that situation

[JohnnyCat]

@trout ok

[JohnnyCat]

@beelee @trout

Happy Monday

So the Evil Japanese have been sort of boxed-in but it's really all a bit of an illusion since Japan already has an incredible amount of armor and troops in China...

And Germany is very scary.

1768423982018-4b6f0d46-b138-478d-a0a3-27d45110ae38-exp-game-1-jc-UK_6.tsvg

As I recall I mentioned all the Mongolia Corrections in the previous USA gig and these GAME NOTES also show that.

The only tricky thing was having to use the Editor to land the paras into Normany again but now that seems like routine... Tho dude, why not place like 6 to 10 suckers (inf) there to prevent this? I certainly would because I just spent 3 and kill your 6 PUs of inf, AND took the 2 PU territory AND, presumably, will take out another 3 when the stellar para-defense kicks in to kill another of your guys. So if that holds, then I spend 3 to make you spend 9 and I get 2 extra... Or am I dreaming this?

104f0b47-e97c-438e-8757-c6cb9b3af6f8-exp-game-1-jc-UK 6 GAME NOTES.txt

OK and did I mention, GERMANY IS VERY SCARY.

Sorry it took like 3 days to get through this turn... But hey, learning great stuff here.

ok Super Evil Mafia Turn

[Trout]

@johnnycat Game History

Round: 6

    Purchase Units - Italians
        Italians buy 1 Italian_LCV, 1 fighter, 3 infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 6 PUs; 

    Place Units - Italians

    Combat Move - Italians
        Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceItalians: Italians has 1 Europe_Rail placed in Southern Italy

    Combat - Italians
        Trigger Remove All ParaBoost: has removed 1 german_paraBoost owned by Germans in Greece
        Trigger Remove All BritishParaBoost: has removed 1 uk_paraBoost owned by British in Normandy Bordeaux
        Trigger Remove All Wolfpack: has removed 1 Wolfpack owned by Germans in 110 Sea Zone

    Non Combat Move - Italians
        Trigger Wolfpack at110 SeaZones: Germans has 1 Wolfpack placed in 110 Sea Zone
        Trigger BritishParaBoost atNormandy Bordeaux: British has 1 uk_paraBoost placed in Normandy Bordeaux
        Trigger ParaBoost atGreece: Germans has 1 german_paraBoost placed in Greece
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
        Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceRemoveItalians: has removed 1 Europe_Rail owned by Italians in Eastern Poland
        1 artillery moved from Morocco to 92 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Morocco to 92 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 92 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 99 Sea Zone to Syria
        1 artillery moved from 99 Sea Zone to Syria
        1 transport moved from 92 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Greece to 99 Sea Zone
        1 armour moved from Greece to 99 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 99 Sea Zone to Syria
        1 armour moved from 99 Sea Zone to Syria
        EDIT: 2 italian_paras moved from Southern Italy to Syria
        EDIT: 1 italian_para moved from Greece to Syria
        EDIT: 1 infantry moved from Southern Italy to Syria
        EDIT: 1 artillery moved from Southern Italy to Syria
        EDIT: 1 carrier moved from 94 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone
        EDIT: 1 fighter moved from Libya to 99 Sea Zone
        EDIT: Italians undo move 16.
        EDIT: Italians undo move 15.
        EDIT: Italians undo move 14.
        EDIT: Italians undo move 13.
        EDIT: 1 infantry moved from Southern Italy to Syria
        EDIT: 1 artillery moved from Southern Italy to Syria
        EDIT: 1 Italian_LCV moved from Southern Italy to Syria
        EDIT: 1 Italian_LCV moved from Southern Italy to Southern France
        1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern France
        1 aaGun moved from Northern Italy to Southern France
        2 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern Italy
        1 transport moved from 92 Sea Zone to 95 Sea Zone
        1 battleship moved from 92 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone
        1 carrier moved from 94 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone
        2 fighters moved from 94 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Libya to Southern Italy
        1 Europe_Rail moved from Southern Italy to Northern Italy
        1 Europe_Rail and 1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Eastern Poland
        1 armour moved from Slovakia Hungary to Eastern Poland
        1 infantry moved from Slovakia Hungary to Eastern Poland
        1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern France
        1 cruiser moved from 92 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 92 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone
        1 cruiser moved from 92 Sea Zone to 95 Sea Zone

    Place Units - Italians
        1 transport placed in 95 Sea Zone
        1 Italian_LCV, 1 fighter and 1 infantry placed in Southern Italy
        2 infantry placed in Northern Italy

    Turn Complete - Italians
        Italians collect 17 PUs; end with 23 PUs
        Trigger Italians AdvancedProduction: Italians met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 26 PUs
        Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 31 PUs
        Objective Italians 3 North Africa: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 36 PUs
        Objective Italians 2 Roman Empire: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 41 PUs

Who says the Mafia is evil. I did no combat this turn. Just gave jobs to the poor Sicilian folks. I decided to visit Syria. After all, it used to be part of the Roman Empire so thought I would let my soldiers eat some dates and tabouli instead of the pasta they get from their mothers at home.
95fb130d-9a79-4868-b34c-700b8196e69f-exp-game-1-jc-i6.tsvg

[JohnnyCat]

@trout said in EXP Game 1 Trout vs Johnny Cat:

95fb130d-9a79-4868-b34c-700b8196e69f-exp-game-1-jc-i6.tsvg

Aussies develop a fondness for Naval Mines, heehee. Not much else happened other than the expected taking back of another Money Island. Hands off, they're all mine, ALL MINE... Japan making 21 PU now - but it's all illusionary.
.
104f0b47-e97c-438e-8757-c6cb9b3af6f8-exp-game-1-jc-ANZAC 6 GAME NOTES.txt
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1768870006961-95fb130d-9a79-4868-b34c-700b8196e69f-exp-game-1-jc-iFRENCH_6.tsvg