Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread

[ff03k64]

@Mora I would say there is no reason you can't try it. Worse that happens is it doesn't run, or some triggers don't work, at which point you can't.

You would just have to change the minimum triplea version in the xml to try it and see what happens. I do have the feeling that he used newer stuff though.

[Mora]

It's ok. I've just read that the factory bug is fixed in the latest prerelease.

[ff03k64]

@Mora I would guess that he uses stuff that is new since 1.9 as well anyway.

[Mora]

I am playing vs. AI for more than 20 turns. Started as Troll. The map is quite challenging, because I learned relatively late that Horde factions are stacking units in capitals. Later I took over the bulls and orcs. So right now, I am fighting a war of survival against Gnomes, Humans and Elves on western continent. Right now it seems that Undead AI is playing acceptably good. So I am keeping it under Hard AI.
To my opinion, two biggest issues atm are 'air routes' and 'munitions usage' by AI. From what I can see, this two problems are close to non-solvable, because they exist for a long time now.
Until they are solved, maybe it would be an idea to make a separate experimental map where this two problems would be worked around: no air routes and no suicide munitions. I expect some other artillery stats would have to be changed to compensate for that, but as discussed earlier, this bombardment mechanic is broken for PvP anyway, so it would need to be worked on anyhow. In addition, all spells would have to be replaced with other hero skills. Preferably passive ones.
I am suggesting all this because

1. I think this map has a potential to become a very good (maybe the best in Triplea) and challenging P vs. AI map.
2. I think there isn't much chance that the same map, however it would look in the end, would be equally good for both PvP and Pvs.AI.
   Not knowing the system, of course I can't say how much work would this require. Maybe this should be taken just as a thought.
   Thanks Frostion for great work!

[Mora]

I quit playing after 30 turns. AI behaves so irrational that I decided not to waste any more of my time. Looks like the reason being this 'air routes' issue. Instead of capturing my Orc stronghold in two turns, the Elves keep hiding behind the mountain ridge. They have overwhelming superiority. Probably AI has calculated that the route across the mountain is closer. This really has to be solved for AI play to be satisfactory. Sooner or later, the game would end up in something similar to this stalemate.
The other issue I've found which is spoiling the game for me is heroes not actually losing anything when they die. Not even a level, not even an item. Their strength is almost entirely based on luck. If they are able to obtain the strongest objects, they become unbeatable or at least too strong. Even when they die they are re-spawned for just 10EXP somewhere else with all their experience and objects. I see a lot of reasons to just throw them into suicide missions and do a lot unproportional damage, or just bind in place whole armies with this movement restriction spell. There should be some higher cost to pay for hero dying so that one would have reason to keep them alive.

[ff03k64]

@Mora I would post a save game. And say what version of the map and TripleA engine you are using. That will allow the programers to look at it and see if it is a AI issue, or a map issue, or some combination thereof, or just a bug of some sort.

[Mora]

It's something that has been happening through many turns. Saved game would not explain. Elves have attacked across the bridge from Warsong Lumber Camp to Valormok on the right bank (where the outpost is situated). They were victorius, but instead of pushing south they retreated back across the bridge with the bulk of the forces. They just sit there, together with Humans and Gnomes army. When Orcs (me) amass enough forces in Valormok, they attack again and then retreat back. It happened two times already. looks like they want to take over stronghold, but don't want to use the obvious route.

[ff03k64]

@Mora A saved game most importantly gives the game history. And for me it would let me know what else is in this area. Maybe they think that someone else is too close to their capital? I don't know the map enough to make heads or tails of anything from a single picture. Frostion probably does, but the AI person also probably doesn't.

While I am not a developer, working on a map gives me some extra perspective. My thought is that the devs never complain about too much information. If you give too much info, they might not need it all, but they can get started trying to figure the problem out and ignore what they don't need. They also do this in their free time, so they might not be on for a couple weeks at a time. Then if you have moved on to another map, they don't have to hope that you remember all the details.

[Mora]

Here's saved game file.
autosaveAfterNight-ElvesNonCombatMove.tsvg

[Mora]

Does anybody know whether there's a simple way to just remove all air routes from the map? If it is not too complicated, I could do it myself.
I would really like to play this one again...

[ff03k64]

@Mora you want to make them work for everything? Or nothing?

[Frostion]

@Mora I am glad that you like the map, even though development is very slow at the moment. I totally agree on the issue of the AI stacking units in some territories. As you probably know, it is because that the AI thinks it can traverse a connection when it really can’t. This really ruins the game and I will keep asking the devs for help and hope that they at some point will look into this AI problem.

I do realize that the map distribution of items and nice hero stuff is in no way guaranteed to be even or fair, not in an AI game and not in a Human vs Human game. Even though I would like to keep things as fair a possible I have a hard time figuring out how this can be done. But, I hope, that with the vast amount of items that are available during each play through, all heroes do each get a good portion of the weak, medium and strong items. So maybe this acts as a balancing mechanic … a little.

As you point out, the heroes are strong units. They are actually super strong compared to the normal units. But they are also meant to be this way, so I don’t see it as a problem. They can also revive pretty fast and pretty cheap. This is can be changed, but as I see it, if a player loses his hero in a battle early on, and there was a big penalty for dying or it cost a lot to revive, then that player would be set back A LOT compared to the other players. So I am not really sure how / what to do to change things for the better?

I have had very little time for TripleA lately, but I have managed to do a little update. I have added a new XML in this here new version of the map that will allow you to play without the airways. I cannot guarantee that there are no new issues or missing connections. Please keep an eye out for leveling and item details / issues. Test it out and give some more feedback

I will probably open a GitHub issue in regards to this AI issue. Hopefully a dev will take an interest in it … as this “feature” (connections with unit type restrictions) could potentially be useful on other innovative maps and special situations.

v1.5 to v1.6 changes (downloadable soon):

• All “handover” debuff spells, that are delivered by casting the spell onto the enemy, now get removed by the start of the original casters turn. So Frost, Earthquake, Solar-Fire, Roots and Lunar-Fire will now only remain on the board 1 round or until captured.

• A lot of Hero abilities adjusted in strength for balance.

• All the Heroes now have levels and ability descriptions in the Hero Bar. Abilities are not at all “equal”, but an effort has been done to balance the heroes and their relative power to each other when they reach level 8. This has been done by using the battle calculator, where level 8 Heroes, assisted by a small army, battle other level 8 Heroes, assisted by a small army. This is of course because Heroes often do not fight alone and Heroes often have support abilities.

• Added a temporary XML called “Disabled Airways Version”, so that beta testers may play this map without having the AI stacking units up in territories that have airways / connections that only allow certain units types to pass.

[Mora]

A big thank you @Frostion ! I appreciate you showing interest in my post. Now I have to decide if I am to wait for v1.6 or start playing v1.5 immediately. Frost was really nasty. A real gnoll killer. I hope that this traversing issue was really 90% of the problem for this map. I plan not to use flying ammunition, to make things fair and more challenging. Fliers will keep at least some of their value, because of the ability to fight over sea.

[Mora]

By the way, how does the targeted attack / defense work target-wise? Is it completely random or is it based on some specific rules?

[Trevan]

@Frostion said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:

I will probably open a GitHub issue in regards to this AI issue. Hopefully a dev will take an interest in it … as this “feature” (connections with unit type restrictions) could potentially be useful on other innovative maps and special situations.

If you can give me a save that illustrates this issue and help me with understanding what should be happening, I'll take a stab at it. I don't know the routing code so it might take a bit.

[Frostion]

@Trevan It would be very much appreciated if you could look into this Let me try to explain the issue at Github:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/8266

[Mora]

Now playing v1.6 under engine 2.5, air routes disabled. I am playing as Troll, all others are AI. Save game file after 5 rounds attached.
Like expected, for now AI works perfectly. No longer stacking around capitals. Instead, all factions are progressing around the map normally. For now, I have encountered only a few minor issues:

• whenever 2 is rolled, it is displayed with a die and two pips instead a number (this doesn't impact gameplay)
• Hero stats in the banner up top aren't perfectly aligned (this doesn't impact gameplay)
• Quality bow actually adds TP to existing value (3+4=7). From the description I was expecting it to replace existing TP value (4 instead of 3) (don't know if this is an actual issue).

autosaveAfterTrollsNonCombatMove.tsvg

[gr8gamerguy]

I noticed after Khorman picked up magic bow (+7 targeted strike), no roll was made; just auto hit. Sounds like same problem above.

I also notice Arther is getting +100xp per turn.

[ff03k64]

@gr8gamerguy If you can attach a save game, that usually helps.

[Frostion]

@Mora I took a look at the v0.1.6 XML and did not find any errors related to your Trolls and Quality Bow problem. (Although I fixed a Gnome problem/typo with Gnomen ranged weapons).

I did a test play through myself, with Trolls, and was lucky enough that he Quality Bow spawned just besides Trolls. I did not see a faulty change of Troll hero stats. It matched what I expected when taking my hero's items and starting stats into account.

I loaded your savegame and took a look. I can see that your hero has the item Horn of Cenarius, and that unit “Gives 5 Friendly Ranged Units +3 Targeting Power”. Like all the other items with similar description (“Friendly Units”) this also applies to the Hero itself. If it was to say “Enemy Ranged Units” it also applies to the enemy Hero. So in your game, the hero had TP 4 + TP 3 from the item.

Friendly Ranged Units is here "AllRangedLandAndAirUnits" that accually mean ALL units able to AA:

<attachment name="supportAttachmentHero-of-Trolls-uses-Horn-of-Cenarius" attachTo="Sian-tsu" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitSupportAttachment" type="unitType">
        <option name="unitType" value="$AllRangedLandAndAirUnits$"/>
        <option name="faction" value="allied"/>
        <option name="side" value="offence:defence"/>
        <option name="dice" value="AAstrength"/>
        <option name="bonus" value="3"/>
        <option name="number" value="5"/>
        <option name="bonusType" value="Horn of Cenarius"/>
    </attachment> 

@gr8gamerguy Yes, as ff03k64 says, a savegame can explain a lot

Here is an updated v0.1.61 XML, but it is not with disabled Airways. Its the normal XML warcraft_war_heroes.xml
Open your zip and the "original xml" directory, then drag and drop this file to overwrite. Or delete and redownload the entire map to update

Please keep the test feedback coming!