New Steampunk Advance Thread
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Imo the Tech system Domination 1914 has and this game essentially isn't my cup of tea. Domination does it better for a few reasons but I first need to mention why.
- It gives the more economically strong countries. Usually, the bigger ones have more power
5 Pu's for a token is not cheap. Sure you can use it again each turn until it hits but larger powers (Germany, and Britain) can spend a lot more on them unlike weaker powers (Nemo pirates, Martians, Austria) who already have significantly less so 5 pu's is a lot for them. Even if they can afford them, the larger powers can just spend more to get a significantly higher chance of getting it. This ties into my second problem
- Strategies start to revolve mainly on Tech or it's becoming required
This might be controversial but I am not saying tech can't be used when making a strategy. However, strategies shouldn't have to rely on them in order to work but often it's necessary. What I see is Germany or Turkey in Domination trying to get turn 1 Late fighter. If they fail in the first few rounds (1-4) then it's likely that they won't be able to control the British Navy. Another this time for Steampunk advance would be getting Armour due to the great number of units there. Now, this on its own isn't bad I mean there is a gain-and-lose factor though I wish it wasn't a necessary thing to do with some objectives as that kind of negates the gain-and-lose thing. The issue is when combine with point 3 it's terrible. speaking of point 3
- It's too luck based
The worst aspect is how luck-based it is. It's possible to use 6 tokens and miss on that turn (seen it happen before) not to mention the smaller countries who would realistically only buy 1-2 each turn if they can. You also only select from categories, You have no choice on which of those technologies from those categories you can get. This issue isn't that bad in Domination because there are 18 techs spread across 6 categories evenly. However Steampunk Advance has the same amount but with the old rules where it was 3, not 6 categories. This makes it more luck based as you can't even decide what you want (this makes #2 a lot worse as sometimes you are unable to do your strategy if you don't get the correct tech or get no rolls).
So this is why I dislike the system. Now I should mention that I don't play Low luck because I dislike it so maybe it works better with that.
Imo I would change the tech system to be more like Global War 1936/1914 in which you get tech rolls each turn based on the number of heavy factories (in this instance ig it would be based on Factories in territories of 3 Pu's). Next, you assign 1 dice on each tech you are rolling to get. You roll and are trying to get a value or greater (in GW it's 7, 8, or 9 but it can be different here). You need to do this 4 times for the tech so you can get it. Now I wouldn't remove the previous system since that works with Low Luck so I wonder if it's possible to have that as a map option but yeah these are thoughts I am writing out
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Who is interested in helping me playtest this game (basically check for what need to be fixed more). If so then comment below
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Part IV
Turkey
- Pretty much the most balanced country in the game. IDK if I should add more units in the south or not since it will mess with Martian's expansion there. Adding more unites or trenches in the Sinai would be the only real change I would make
Britain
- Decrease the Australian navy a bit or spread it out because it's often mandatory for the Nemo Pirates to attack it in Turn 1 because if not then it unites with the Singapore force. You can get diced early which just kills the Nemo Pirates so I want to decrease the chance of that. I can give France a bit more as compensation for allied power in the pacific.
- Tanks in Belgium make no sense tbh since if Britain is making them wouldn't they be in Britain at the start of the war? (also too hard for Germany to try to go around Alsace as a result)
- fewer units in the Suez or near it at the start since Turkey and the Martians really can't threaten it unlike Domination 1914 where it's a major chokepoint.
Russia
- Due to turns 2-3 German capture of St.Petersberg was too strong. I will make it have more defense (mainly trenches and a bit more infantry). Still will make that strategy viable but it will take longer and require the capture of Finland or a huge airborne stack in Lithuania to be able to have a shot.
Communist
- Fix the weird political situation of being technically allied with the Nemo pirates and Martians but just assisting the Central Powers (Either make it its own faction or make it just not be able to be in Central power territory)
US
- Not enough testing but seems mostly balanced though again Artillery should be more balanced since Snipers are especially more useful for the US which has a Mid income level.
- Guerillas should be able to be placed in every city in the US not just in Charlestown (too restrictive and usually you use it for Naval stuff early on or if you get pushed back a lot, either Infantry, Hero, or Airplanes)
- Zepplin for the US should be cheaper like Germany due to more advance airship technology present for their country (The Edison class aircraft outclasses it hard)
This is my current list of fixes so if anyone has suggestions or anything else than tell me below
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@board-3659 If you are finding tech too random, use events to grant tech instead of tech rolls. You can have the likelihood of a event increase each turn, so tech becomes a matter of when rather than if.
You can also use events in other useful ways. For example, the AI will not build the economic infrastructure of the Nemo Pirates because it sees no military benefit. You can use events to give them the units automatically.
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@rogercooper Interesting. I might implement some of it for a few of the tech but not all. I prefer the Global War 1936 tech system because it's less rng (lowest is 33% for a stage of tech) and you needing more than 1 roll is a good thing because it's more likley they will even out in luck (you need 4 rolls). How you get a die roll of tech in that game was through heavy factories which would just be factories on territories with 3 Pu's.
The events is an interesting way to fix the nemo pirates. I didn't thought of that so thanks
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Ok so I am in the process of making a 2nd edition so is there any suggestions?
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I really can't make progress without some actual playtest so is anyone interested
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also, does anyone know how to contact Swampy (I know they are not part of this community anymore but more info on what they did on this map game can be nice)
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I'm going to just continue to mod and then give a list of what I changed.
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I am going back and giving my thoughts on what I said before and seeing if they made sense:
If I or someone to make a mod of this here are some things:
Germany-
Give them Dreadnoughts, probably 3 as well as at least 6 airplanes (IDK who thought giving Britain this much of a naval advantage was balanced; Dreadnoughts allow planes to be viable for Germany)
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Give more ships to Germany so its navy is able to defend against the British (previous point)
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Add 2-4 Deutschland Subs around the world. (This is because Germany's naval production is limited to only 2-3 areas that are constantly under threat so you never build them.)
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Make the normal zeppelin cheaper (IDK why it would be more expensive than the graf zeppelin class ones which heavily outclass it, ig 10 is probably fine)
I still largely agree with this tbh with maybe Normal Zepplins being 11 but that is more of a nickpick than anything tbh. I think this holds up well.
I would add a complaint that in Graf-Zepplins should not have to return back to their original starting point and be able to stay with the trade-off of no retreating and -3 atk next turn (b/c they do need to go back to reload bombs) b/c Zepplins require little infrastructure to land so they should easily land in the captured territory. It also will make a more realistic approach to how the conflict would play out, though I don't know if I will be able to do this on Triple-A.
I would add however that Snipers should be 4 ... they are so versatile and imo should be costing more for that versatility
France
- France can't make Maginot unit (Was too overpowered for a country with an above-average economy, made France basically not be under any major pressure until late in the game, meaning they are likely the ones who will be making the offensive push first, plus the 7 Maginots in Alsace-Loraine made Germany not be able to effectively threaten the French unless they go around, limit that stack to 3-4.)
- Maybe make France's conscripts units not need a factory but cost 3, make them not be able to cross France or limit where they can be placed (France's production allows them to be able to abuse conscripts unlike Russia and buy them with no real consequences since they can, later on, buy heavy artillery or Roburs).
Okay so I think I kind of overreacted on making the Maginot banned for France. It really shouldn't be changed with maybe Alasace-Loraine having fewer Maginots (4-5 is fine).
I do think conscripts are too good for a high-middle-income nation that has high production b/c you then just spend money on conscripts + any strong-hitting units. I think making them be limited to only Frances starting Factories does make it less of an issue while not making conscripts insignificant
Italy
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Make the Hitman unit a 4/0 and limit production to North Italy (Were too spamable and due to Austrias low unit amount made it nearly impossible to defend against this)
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Make Militia be limited to only the Balkans (Same issue as conscripts but worse since they were a 2 cost infantry but with 1 less defense, The main issue is that you can build them in Rome so you can make stacks of them which saves money allowing you to buy more expensive units as compensation for the lower defense)
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Make pontoons bridges cost 9 and be a 0/3 (They can be used to protect sea zones very cheaply at 7 pu compared with 12 pu's for a battle cruiser and 14 pu's 2 transports making 28 in total, sure it's stationary but the lack of production cancels that out and even if it didn't it would still be the sea version of the Maginot for all intents and purposes. It makes it very hard to push back the Alliance once they gain momentum in the Pacific since they can place these to defend their island's sea zones, which essentially prevents the Nemo Pirates from being able to take them back without huge cost either in the battle or in the counter-attack).
I still stand by my statements regarding Hitman's
I still agree with Militias and I think making them just no factory 2 PU units in the Balkans makes more sense thematically. I would however remove their 1 transport cost since that just makes them the perfect unit for naval transports which just makes no sense.
I need to playtest more to see if Pontoons are really that problematic.
Austria-Hungary
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Give them more units (Seriously this is sad, why do they start out with so little)
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Start them out with a leviathan and let them be able to make Stormtruppen (Austria has the least diverse amount of unique units)
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Let them have the dreadnought and start with 1 maybe 2 plus increase the Austrian navy (Why is it so small? it was stronger or comparable to the Italian one so this makes no sense)
Yeah more units ... like just doubling the amount on the continent is a good start
I do think Austria should build Stormtruppen and have 1 Leviathan but I think even then ... just give them more unique stuff ... like give them a rail gun inspired by "From the Earth to the Moon", The Austrias are able to steal US tech that was originally meant to launch people to the Moon, likely trying to find a similar method of space travel to how the Martians did and repurpose it as a very long range gun. Another idea is then get a Drachenflieger (technically it will function more like a gyrocopter but name-wise) inspired from "The War in the Air". The last idea is a drill partially inspired by "The Journey to the Center of the Earth" where the Austrians repurposed drills used for civil and defense purposes into an offensive role to attack static defenses.
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@board-3659 You might think of capping the number of all non-historical units so they can't be spammed (and even some historical ones). That way they will get used without dominating the game.
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@rogercooper I was thinking of that for some of the special units like Lethiathans or Tetrapods
I don't think capping is the best idea on all units. Consripts are meant to be spammed to a certain extent, it's just how much is too much.
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@board-3659 Conscripts are historical (my grandfather was conscripted into WW1). However, in practical terms, armies could only get so big so caps and/or maintenance costs are realistic
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@rogercooper yeah I know that I was saying that what would said caps really be? I would put it around 20-40. Same with Militias
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@board-3659 Here is what I see as the problems with Steampunk Advance.
- As you noted, some spammable units like Hitmen and Samurai.
- Some specials confuse the AI, especially the Nemo Pirates. They should be changed or alternate AI-able scenario should be created.
- Some of the economics is way-off. America is not a economic power, instead they struggle against the Central Powers attacking from Mexico. The economic might of the US is an important part of Steampunk (a number of Jules Verne stories were set in the US for that reason). It is fine to give the Americans fictional problems but they need their historical economy.
- The game would probably benefit from some random events like fresh Martian landings and colonial rebellions.
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I have played multiple games as the Central Powers and two as the Nemo/Pirates and Martians, respectively, all against hard AI. I have yet to play as the Entente, but that will be my next game. @board-3659 I agree with basically all of the changes you recommended.
One of the biggest things I've noticed when playing against the AI, as several others have pointed out, is the the Nemo/Pirate faction is barely a threat because the AI doesn't seem to understand how their special units and economy works. I feel like this can heavily influence the balance of the game because the Entente does not need to spend nearly as much resources on the Pacific as it should, allowing more units to be sent against the Centrals in Europe.
Another issue I've seen (although this may not be an issue and just a viable strategy), is that the Centrals can consistently capture Washington D.C. around turn 4-5 using nothing but the starting units from Mexico by utilizing the Austrian cavalry and German air units to leapfrog and blitz off each other. The only reason I would say this is an issue is that this only works because D.C. is never reinforced by the AI as you get close because it doesn't seem able to predict that you can clear the way for the Austrian cavalry with the German air force. That being said, I have been unable to defeat the Entente as the Centrals without this strategy, mostly because of the overtuning of the Entente described throughout this thread (or I'm just not good at the game haha).
Overall I really enjoy this variant and would love to see an update. Although I don't think I know enough about the systems or have enough time to provide a proper playtest for it unfortunately.
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Agree with your ideas
It's very difficult to "balance out" imbalanced things (like some countries are stronger, some have unique units) but the imbalance is what makes it so fun. It's very hard to not throw out the baby with the bath water when balancing things.
But assassins are disgustingly broken. 5/0 with 2 movement for 2 IPC, and all you can throw at them is infantry...plus they have militia. And their primary target is Austria, which already has about as much chances of surviving as France does in most WW2 games. It's unplayable. That's my strong argument. My weak argument is I personally don't enjoy the assassin play, it's not "fun" to send assassins in to take territory.
There are many ways to balance, and I would defer to a more fun option, but the most straightforward way is to just remove assassins and give Austria more units. 10 infantry + a leviathan
Maginots are ok as-is. Germany has a counterplay but it takes a while to find. More troubling is that St Petersburg can't be saved, it needs some units too.
edit-reworded, I don't know AI dev. So I don't know that a revamp is necessary. So I'll just say that the AI doesn't currently do well in large maps, where it has to plan to attack a territory many territories away.
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@rogercooper Yeah I generally agree especially with Martian landings and Stronger US
US being Stronger would make Germany decide to play safe and go to get Latin American lands or play risky and hit the US. It's not really a debate as of now b/c you get immense value in invading it
Martian Landings would help the Martian Player a lot b/c currently your relying on quickly rushing to California from Alaska in Turn 6-7 when Germany is in a stalemate with US
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@abendigos Yeah the lack of Nemo Pirates makes The Alliance easily focus on stomping Austria
I agree that if your quick enough you can basically capture Washington D.C easily from the US or basically make it be around 30-40 IPC making them irrelevent
however it's not as OP as the kill russia in Turn 2-3 b/c you can position your Zeeplins in a way that by building max transports on Turn 1. You can naval invade St.Petersburg with Air Support and take it easily or take it next turn. It's one of the few ways as central powers you can survive against the Entente before they crush Austria
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@board-3659 The new isAI feature might be good way of helping powers that are hard for the AI to play like the Nemo Pirates.
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