Axis Strategy Advice- Hard AI WWII Classic 3rd Edition Version 2.5.22294?
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I was looking for some advice on beating Allies for game Hard AI WWII Classic 3rd Edition Version 2.5.22294. While you're at it, can you also give strategy to beat Axis?
I usually play with these Options checked: 2-hit battleships; choose AA casualties; multiple AA per territory; def sub may retreat, submerge, retreat; attacker retreat planes; Unit placement in enemy seas; Produce fighters on carriers; Move existing fighters to new carriers.
I'd assume a human can still win without extra IPC (if not let me know if it's just a turn 1 allotment or every turn).
I've played triplea thru the years, but the AI is greatly improved.
The only thing I've read on this through searches was from 2020 for an old version. One person suggested destroying UK and US fleets turn 1, keep E. Europe, take Africa with assist of 1 fighter, Japan take asia, win economic victory. I usually like to finish the game.
I noticed with the new Hard AI V-2.5.22294, blitzing Russia doesn't work. As another forum poster said, the Allies reinforce Russia with fighters so well, it's a tough challenge.
I read an interesting strat for Allies to block Japan first (Japan just has Japan island); but they referenced that for Revised version in particular. I'm asking for 3rd Ed.
Thank you for you help! I look forward to reading your advice!
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@sculpt Is "Units Repair Hits End Turn" enabled too, or are you going with two-hits battleships which can never be repaired once they are damaged?
Are you going to limit yourself playing by the rules, or are you going with whatever the program allows even if illegal or a bug? I'm particularly thinking to the fact that TripleA does not allow you to load transports in hostile sea zones (although you should be able to in Classic), which allows for naval-stalling (illegal) strategies (like placing a factory in West Europe to place 1 transport or submarine every turn to make impossible for British to load anything from the United Kingdom before combat).
I confirm that Classic is basically heavily unbalanced in favour of the Allies, so I assume you should be able to win quite easily if you play the Allies against the AI playing the Axis.
For your information, even though the AI has been greatly improved (by @redrum), it is still far inferior to a good human player.
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@sculpt I played as Axis with the options you listed and everything else as given (and without taking advantage of any illegal moves which the program allows, like naval-stalling or loading two infantries and offloading only one of them into combat on the same turn) and won (by Economic Victory +10) on round 6 (on the first try).
2023-9-2-World-War-II-Classic-3rd-Edition(6Win).tsvg
(You need to assign Russians to yourself before starting the saved game or else Russians will play even though the game is over.)
Be warned that much of what I did would not work against a good (human) player (especially having British not placing any ships for the entire game).
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@cernel Thanks! Yes, no battleship repair.
I'm not sure what you mean by naval-stalling and the triplea rules. If 'Unit placement in enemy seas' is NOT checked... If Germany had a factory in France and the UK sea zone had no enemy ships, Germany can place a sub there, right? I would assume so, because I thought an enemy sea zone is defined by enemy ships in it, not adjoining factory territory, right?
If 'Unit placement in enemy seas' is checked, then Germany can place a sub in the UK sea zone when there are Allied ships there, right? In that scenario, I was not aware the game would not allow UK to load transports in that sea zone. I assumed the UK could load the transports and unload them in Norway, as long as during the navel combat phase the transports survived. Am I wrong about that? You're saying Classic allows it, but 3rd Ed doesn't? Since I assumed the transports could be loaded, I never tried to block it.
Last thing on that, you said this was illegal? You mean with two human players? When does that come into play? I guess in 3rd Ed both would decide to leave 'Unit placement in enemy seas' unchecked. In Classic is that a rule known by everyone already?
To answer your question (as I said I was unfamiliar with the game not letting you load transports) I would play by whatever the game allows. But now that I know, I would probably leave the 'Unit placement in enemy seas' unchecked. = )
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@cernel Ill check out the game you posted. Thanks!
If you weren't using navel-blocking in the UK sea zone, do you know why the UK AI didn't place any ships, but a human player would? I assume the AI won't place ships if the Axis maintains a 51% battle calculator to destroy any ships it might place. Would a human place them there anyway just to eat up the Axis planes/ships/IPCs?
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@sculpt said in Axis Strategy Advice- Hard AI WWII Classic 3rd Edition Version 2.5.22294?:
@cernel Thanks! Yes, no battleship repair.
I'm not sure what you mean by naval-stalling and the triplea rules. If 'Unit placement in enemy seas' is NOT checked... If Germany had a factory in France and the UK sea zone had no enemy ships, Germany can place a sub there, right? I would assume so, because I thought an enemy sea zone is defined by enemy ships in it, not adjoining factory territory, right?
Naval stalling (also called sub stalling in Revised because it is usually done with a submarine) is placing a sea unit in a hostile sea zone to make impossible for the enemy ships to load units in that sea zone so long as the placed unit is still present (and not submerged). This strategy does not exist in Classic because in classic the presence of enemy ships do not impede loading, but in TripleA it does in Classic too.
The problem is that the rule that you cannot load ships in hostile sea zones is in the rules-set of every game from Revised onwards, but TripleA incorrectly adds this rule to Classic too.
If 'Unit placement in enemy seas' is checked, then Germany can place a sub in the UK sea zone when there are Allied ships there, right? In that scenario, I was not aware the game would not allow UK to load transports in that sea zone. I assumed the UK could load the transports and unload them in Norway, as long as during the navel combat phase the transports survived. Am I wrong about that? You're saying Classic allows it, but 3rd Ed doesn't? Since I assumed the transports could be loaded, I never tried to block it.
You're correct in your assumption, but (as you can test it) the TripleA program does not allow you to load in such cases. This is the same for any edition of Classic.
Last thing on that, you said this was illegal? You mean with two human players? When does that come into play? I guess in 3rd Ed both would decide to leave 'Unit placement in enemy seas' unchecked. In Classic is that a rule known by everyone already?
It's actually something that is legal but it is not allowed by the program. In Classic, it is legal to load ships in hostile sea zones but the program does not allow it.
To answer your question (as I said I was unfamiliar with the game not letting you load transports) I would play by whatever the game allows. But now that I know, I would probably leave the 'Unit placement in enemy seas' unchecked. = )
Correct: that would much reduce the problem. However, the issues exists anytime enemy ships are sharing the same sea zone at the start of a turn, which can also happen because of the ability of submarines to submerge. However, the naval stalling strategy is really based on placing new units in hostile sea zones, so being unable to do that virtually eliminates this strategy indeed.
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@sculpt said in Axis Strategy Advice- Hard AI WWII Classic 3rd Edition Version 2.5.22294?:
@cernel Ill check out the game you posted. Thanks!
If you weren't using navel-blocking in the UK sea zone, do you know why the UK AI didn't place any ships, but a human player would? I assume the AI won't place ships if the Axis maintains a 51% battle calculator to destroy any ships it might place. Would a human place them there anyway just to eat up the Axis planes/ships/IPCs?
I simply made a big air units purchase and some moves to assure that British would be convinced (due to the limited AI) to be unable safely to have a fleet in the United Kingdom sea zone by the end of its next turn, giving up with that.
Starting from the state of the game in the saved game at the start of the first British turn (that is immediately after I made the Germans turn), what a (human or better AI) player could have done during that turn and the subsequent turns of Americans and Russians is killing the German submarine with air units only (very high chance), moving a British transport to North Sea Zone from East Canada Sea Zone, placing a new British Carrier and a new British transport into North Sea Zone, redeploying two British fighters on the new carrier (which is possible with your rules choice, otherwise two Americans fighters can land on it on the same round), move 1 Americans transport to North Sea Zone and move 1 Russians submarine to West Spain Sea zone. This would have given an Allied fleet of 5 transports, 1 carrier, 1 battleship and 2 fighters which could have been attacked only by the Germans air for a measly 19% chance to destroy the fleet. Alternatively and preferably, the Russians submarine could have been kept in the zone and British could have sent (as the AI actually did in the game) 1 battleship, 1 submarine and 1 bomber to 100% (approximated to 1% ) kill the 1 transport and the 1 (already damaged) battleship in West Mediterranean Sea Zone while still having a very high chance to kill the Germans submarine (attacking it with up to 2 British fighters, 1 Americans bomber and 2 Russians fighters). This would have given an Allied fleet of 5 transports, 1 submarine, 1 carrier and 2 fighters which could have been attacked only by the Germans air for a not good 54% chance to destroy the fleet. I said not good because on average the result of this battle would be all Allied units in the sea zone and all Germans air being lost, and that would be certainly not a good outcome for Germans. However, the AI did neither of these things likely due to some logic failing or missing to see and correctly evaluate such possibilities.
Subsequently, the AI could have still easily enough placed enough ships in North Sea Zone by saving enough income ahead or coordinating with other Allied ships and aircraft but totally failed at that too.
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@cernel I checked out the game. Well played.
I say, those were some weird moves by the Allies. Right from the start US hiding it's carriers in Gulf of Mex sea zone without reason, putting a full unescorted transport in N Atlantic sea zone when Axis bombers are in France, UK infantry transport hiding in S Compass sea zone when Africa is open, no ships placed in N sea zone or coordination with Allies there, or the worst Russia leaving Russia capital numerically undefended when there was infantry to spare from Karelia. Clearly I had nothing to worry about.
There was some decent AI by Russia and UK in Asia. I could be wrong, but I think prior AI versions did better with the US regarding advancing transported troops into Africa and Western Europe. The hiding the multiple carriers in Gulf of Mexico, not even properly responding to your move through Panama, Brazil and Cuba, was not very competent. I wonder if the AI is better in World War II Classic, or either (3rd Ed) if you leave the Options with defaults?
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@cernel FYI - I did some tests to see what the game would allow regarding loading troops with enemy ships in N. Atlantic sea zone with setting 'Unit placement in enemy seas' with all human players.
It was not good lol... it was inconsistent. First, in the 2nd round, the game did not allow UK to load its own transport but could load Russian transport. Third or Forth round the game did allow UK to load transport and attack France on same turn (with a German sub in the sea zone). The game allowed me to select the France battle first (which UK won), and then I did the naval battle after and selected the transports as Lost/destroyed... at which point the game poppped a Triplea Error window reading: "java.lang.illegalstateexception.not all units present in western europe. trying to remove infantry owned by british. trying to remove infantry owned by british] present] aagun owned by british, factory owned by british, infantry owned by british, bomber owned by british. If this happens frequently and something you cannont fix, please contact triplea.". The game left the troops in France and the game continued.
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@sculpt @Cernel
Does the same thing happen in the latest 2.6 ?
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases
