TWW 3.0.0.6 Gully (al) vs redrum (ax)
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@redrum: Need Scramble and OOL.
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I'm curious to see what happens now. Pretty sure it's either a 30% shot at Tokio, or a decently cost-efficient fleet kill. If I don't do it, I'll probably have less than 30% win chance. And the game isn't even over if Tokio falls, you will certainly get it back rightaway.
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TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Usa round 8
TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: Total World War: December 1941 3.0, version: 3.0.0.6
Game History
Round: 8 Research Technology - Usa Usa rolls : 1/1 hits, 0,00 expected hits Usa removing all Technology Tokens after successful research. Usa discover ImprovedDestroyers Combat Move - Usa Trigger americanMecht3: Setting isLandTransportable to false for unitAttachment attached to americanMech.Infantry Trigger americanHvyTank1: Setting isLandTransportable to false for unitAttachment attached to americanHeavyTank Trigger americanTank1: Setting isLandTransportable to false for unitAttachment attached to americanTank Trigger americanAirtraninfra1: Setting isInfrastructure to false for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger americanAirtraninfra1: Setting attack to 1 for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger americanAirtraninfra1: Setting destroyedWhenCapturedBy cleared for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger SovietFarEastLLUsa1: Usa takes ownership of territory Soviet Far East Trigger ArchangelLLUsa1: Usa takes ownership of territory Archangel Trigger MurmanskLLUsa1: Usa takes ownership of territory Murmansk 2 americanCombatEngineers, 4 americanInfantrys and 1 americanParatrooper moved from Bonin Island to 119 Sea Zone 1 americanCarrier, 2 americanDestroyers, 1 americanNavalFighter and 2 americanSubmarines moved from 108 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone 4 americanCarriers, 2 americanCombatEngineers, 1 americanCruiser, 1 americanDestroyer, 4 americanInfantrys, 8 americanNavalFighters, 1 americanParatrooper, 1 americanSubmarine and 4 americanTransports moved from 119 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone 2 americanNavalFighters moved from Hawaiian Islands to 99 Sea Zone 2 americanNavalFighters moved from Alaska to 99 Sea Zone 1 americanFighter moved from Wake Island to 99 Sea Zone 1 americanStrategicBomber moved from Gibraltar to Tunisia 2 americanSubmarines moved from 120 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone 2 americanCombatEngineers, 4 americanInfantrys and 1 americanParatrooper moved from 99 Sea Zone to TokyoCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Usa rolls : : 1,00 -
@redrum forgot to unload to Tokio
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@Gully Max scramble to sz99 and max defense which should be subs, transports, destroyers, carriers, damage BB, BB, naval fighters. If Japan is clearly going to win then save BB til the end instead.
I guess this is your all-in move?
As if the USA loses this, its pretty bleak for them. -
@redrum: pretty much. Your subs hit so I lost a transport and edited it back in in NCM.
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Game History
Round: 8 Research Technology - Usa Usa rolls : 1/1 hits, 0,00 expected hits Usa removing all Technology Tokens after successful research. Usa discover ImprovedDestroyers Combat Move - Usa Trigger americanMecht3: Setting isLandTransportable to false for unitAttachment attached to americanMech.Infantry Trigger americanHvyTank1: Setting isLandTransportable to false for unitAttachment attached to americanHeavyTank Trigger americanTank1: Setting isLandTransportable to false for unitAttachment attached to americanTank Trigger americanAirtraninfra1: Setting isInfrastructure to false for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger americanAirtraninfra1: Setting attack to 1 for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger americanAirtraninfra1: Setting destroyedWhenCapturedBy cleared for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger SovietFarEastLLUsa1: Usa takes ownership of territory Soviet Far East Trigger ArchangelLLUsa1: Usa takes ownership of territory Archangel Trigger MurmanskLLUsa1: Usa takes ownership of territory Murmansk Trigger americanMecht4: Setting isLandTransportable to true for unitAttachment attached to americanMech.Infantry Trigger americanHvyTank2: Setting isLandTransportable to true for unitAttachment attached to americanHeavyTank Trigger americanTank2: Setting isLandTransportable to true for unitAttachment attached to americanTank 2 americanCombatEngineers, 4 americanInfantrys and 1 americanParatrooper moved from Bonin Island to 119 Sea Zone 1 americanCarrier, 2 americanDestroyers, 1 americanNavalFighter and 2 americanSubmarines moved from 108 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone 4 americanCarriers, 2 americanCombatEngineers, 1 americanCruiser, 1 americanDestroyer, 4 americanInfantrys, 8 americanNavalFighters, 1 americanParatrooper, 1 americanSubmarine and 4 americanTransports moved from 119 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone 2 americanNavalFighters moved from Hawaiian Islands to 99 Sea Zone 2 americanNavalFighters moved from Alaska to 99 Sea Zone 1 americanFighter moved from Wake Island to 99 Sea Zone 1 americanStrategicBomber moved from Gibraltar to Tunisia 2 americanSubmarines moved from 120 Sea Zone to 99 Sea Zone 2 americanCombatEngineers, 4 americanInfantrys and 1 americanParatrooper moved from 99 Sea Zone to Tokyo Combat - Usa Usa creates battle in territory 109 Sea Zone Japan scrambles 2 units out of Kyushu Shikoku to defend against the attack in 99 Sea Zone Japan scrambles 2 units out of Tokyo to defend against the attack in 99 Sea Zone Japan scrambles 4 units out of Japan to defend against the attack in 99 Sea Zone Strategic bombing raid in Tunisia Bombing raid in Tunisia rolls: 2 and causes: 2 damage to unit: Rail Bombing raid in Tunisia causes 2 damage total. Battle in 99 Sea Zone Usa attack with 5 americanCarriers, 1 americanCruiser, 3 americanDestroyers, 1 americanFighter, 13 americanNavalFighters, 5 americanSubmarines and 4 americanTransports Japan defend with 1 japaneseBattleship, 2 japaneseCarriers, 10 japaneseDestroyers, 12 japaneseNavalFighters, 3 japaneseSubmarines and 2 japaneseTransports DepthChargeAttack fire in 99 Sea Zone : 1/1 hits, 0,25 expected hits 1 japaneseSubmarine owned by the Japan lost in 99 Sea Zone Usa roll dice for 5 americanSubmarines in 99 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 1,25 expected hits Japan roll dice for 2 japaneseSubmarines in 99 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0,17 expected hits 1 americanTransport owned by the Usa lost in 99 Sea Zone 1 americanParatrooper owned by the Usa lost in Tokyo Usa roll dice for 5 americanCarriers, 1 americanCruiser, 3 americanDestroyers, 1 americanFighter, 13 americanNavalFighters and 3 americanTransports in 99 Sea Zone, round 2 : 9/1 hits, 9,50 expected hits Japan roll dice for 1 japaneseBattleship, 2 japaneseCarriers, 10 japaneseDestroyers, 12 japaneseNavalFighters and 2 japaneseTransports in 99 Sea Zone, round 2 : 10/0 hits, 10,00 expected hits 2 americanSubmarines owned by the Usa, 2 japaneseTransports owned by the Japan, 3 americanDestroyers owned by the Usa, 2 japaneseSubmarines owned by the Japan, 6 japaneseDestroyers owned by the Japan and 5 americanCarriers owned by the Usa lost in 99 Sea Zone Usa roll dice for 3 americanSubmarines in 99 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/1 hits, 0,75 expected hits 1 japaneseDestroyer owned by the Japan lost in 99 Sea Zone Usa roll dice for 1 americanCruiser, 1 americanFighter, 13 americanNavalFighters and 3 americanTransports in 99 Sea Zone, round 3 : 8/1 hits, 8,33 expected hits Japan roll dice for 1 japaneseBattleship, 2 japaneseCarriers, 3 japaneseDestroyers and 12 japaneseNavalFighters in 99 Sea Zone, round 3 : 8/1 hits, 8,08 expected hits 3 americanSubmarines owned by the Usa, 1 japaneseNavalFighter owned by the Japan, 1 americanCruiser owned by the Usa, 3 japaneseDestroyers owned by the Japan, 1 japaneseBattleship owned by the Japan, 3 americanNavalFighters owned by the Usa, 1 americanFighter owned by the Usa and 2 japaneseCarriers owned by the Japan lost in 99 Sea Zone Usa roll dice for 10 americanNavalFighters and 3 americanTransports in 99 Sea Zone, round 4 : 6/1 hits, 5,83 expected hits Japan roll dice for 11 japaneseNavalFighters in 99 Sea Zone, round 4 : 5/1 hits, 5,50 expected hits 6 japaneseNavalFighters owned by the Japan and 5 americanNavalFighters owned by the Usa lost in 99 Sea Zone Usa roll dice for 5 americanNavalFighters and 3 americanTransports in 99 Sea Zone, round 5 : 2/1 hits, 2,92 expected hits Japan roll dice for 5 japaneseNavalFighters in 99 Sea Zone, round 5 : 2/1 hits, 2,50 expected hits 2 japaneseNavalFighters owned by the Japan and 2 americanNavalFighters owned by the Usa lost in 99 Sea Zone Usa roll dice for 3 americanNavalFighters and 3 americanTransports in 99 Sea Zone, round 6 : 2/1 hits, 1,75 expected hits Japan roll dice for 3 japaneseNavalFighters in 99 Sea Zone, round 6 : 2/1 hits, 1,50 expected hits 2 japaneseNavalFighters owned by the Japan and 2 americanNavalFighters owned by the Usa lost in 99 Sea Zone Usa roll dice for 1 americanNavalFighter and 3 americanTransports in 99 Sea Zone, round 7 : 1/1 hits, 0,58 expected hits Japan roll dice for 1 japaneseNavalFighter in 99 Sea Zone, round 7 : 1/1 hits, 0,50 expected hits 1 japaneseNavalFighter owned by the Japan and 1 americanNavalFighter owned by the Usa lost in 99 Sea Zone Usa win with 3 americanTransports remaining. Battle score for attacker is -23 Casualties for Japan: 1 japaneseBattleship, 2 japaneseCarriers, 10 japaneseDestroyers, 12 japaneseNavalFighters, 3 japaneseSubmarines and 2 japaneseTransports Casualties for Usa: 5 americanCarriers, 1 americanCruiser, 3 americanDestroyers, 1 americanFighter, 13 americanNavalFighters, 5 americanSubmarines and 1 americanTransport Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode Battle in Tokyo Usa attack with 2 americanCombatEngineers and 4 americanInfantrys Japan defend with 1 Flagpole, 2 Rails, 1 japaneseAirfield, 1 japaneseAntiAirGun, 1 japaneseBarracks and 1 japaneseDocks Usa roll dice for 2 americanCombatEngineers and 4 americanInfantrys in Tokyo, round 2 : 2/1 hits, 1,67 expected hits Japan roll dice for 1 japaneseAntiAirGun in Tokyo, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,17 expected hits 1 japaneseAntiAirGun owned by the Japan lost in Tokyo Usa destroys 85PUs while taking Japan capital Some non-combat units are destroyed: Usa converts japaneseBarracks into different units Usa converts japaneseDocks into different units Usa win, taking Tokyo from Japan with 2 americanCombatEngineers and 4 americanInfantrys remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0 Casualties for Usa: 1 americanParatrooper Casualties for Japan: 1 japaneseAntiAirGun Trigger LiberationJapan4: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachmentLiberationJapan attached to Japan Non Combat Move - Usa Trigger americanMecht1: Setting isLandTransport to true for unitAttachment attached to americanMech.Infantry Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Adding units owned by Usa to 99 Sea Zone: 1 americanTransport EDIT: Adding units owned by Usa to Tokyo: 1 americanParatrooper EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode Trigger americanMecht2: Setting isLandTransport to false for unitAttachment attached to americanMech.Infantry Trigger americanAirtraninfra2: Setting isInfrastructure to true for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger americanAirtraninfra2: Setting attack to 0 for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger americanAirtraninfra2: Setting destroyedWhenCapturedBy to FROM:Usa for unitAttachment attached to americanAirTransport Trigger MurmanskLLUsa2: Russia takes ownership of territory Murmansk Trigger ArchangelLLUsa2: Russia takes ownership of territory Archangel Trigger SovietFarEastLLUsa2: Russia takes ownership of territory Soviet Far East Trigger americanProd1: Usa has 1 Material placed in Washington 1 americanAirTransport moved from Solomon Islands to New South Wales 1 americanTransport moved from 119 Sea Zone to 120 Sea Zone 2 americanDestroyers moved from 109 Sea Zone to 120 Sea Zone 1 americanNavalFighter moved from Chicago to Labrador 3 americanTransports moved from 43 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone 1 americanTransport moved from 61 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone 1 americanArtillery and 6 americanInfantrys moved from Morrocco to 42 Sea Zone 1 americanStrategicBomber moved from Tunisia to Gibraltar 1 americanArtillery and 6 americanInfantrys moved from 42 Sea Zone to Gibraltar 1 americanCombatEngineer, 1 americanInfantry, 2 americanMarines and 1 americanMech.Infantry moved from Southwestern Algeria to Morrocco 1 americanBattleship moved from 61 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone 2 Materials moved from New York to 30 Sea Zone 2 Materials and 1 americanTransport moved from 30 Sea Zone to 2 Sea Zone 1 americanCombatEngineer and 1 americanInfantry moved from Washington to 30 Sea Zone 1 americanCombatEngineer, 1 americanInfantry and 1 americanTransport moved from 30 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone 1 americanTransport moved from 39 Sea Zone to 30 Sea Zone 1 americanCombatEngineer and 1 americanInfantry moved from 39 Sea Zone to Azores 2 americanTransports moved from 61 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone 1 americanDestroyer moved from 30 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone 1 Truck and 1 americanAntiAirGun moved from 101 Sea Zone to Soviet Far East 1 americanTransport moved from 101 Sea Zone to 103 Sea Zone 1 Truck and 1 americanAntiAirGun moved from Alaska to 103 Sea Zone 1 Truck, 1 americanAntiAirGun and 1 americanTransport moved from 103 Sea Zone to 101 Sea Zone 1 Truck and 1 americanAntiAirGun moved from 101 Sea Zone to Soviet Far East 1 americanTransport and 2 britishInfantrys moved from 24 Sea Zone to 13 Sea Zone 1 Material and 1 Train moved from Washington to New York 1 Train moved from New York to Washington Purchase Units - Usa Usa buy 2 americanDestroyers, 1 americanHull, 3 americanInfantrys, 2 americanNavalFighters, 1 americanSubmarine and 1 americanTransport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 0 techTokens; Place Units - Usa 1 americanDestroyer and 1 americanSubmarine placed in 120 Sea Zone 2 americanNavalFighters placed in Hawaiian Islands 1 americanDestroyer, 1 americanHull and 1 americanTransport placed in 156 Sea Zone 2 americanInfantrys placed in San Francisco 1 americanInfantry placed in Washington Activate Technology - Usa Usa activating ImprovedDestroyers Trigger americanImpD: Setting offensiveAttackAA to 3 for unitAttachment attached to americanDestroyer Turn Complete - Usa Trigger LLabNFL1: has removed 1 Pg owned by Britain in Labrador Trigger LLaAS: has removed 1 americanArtillery owned by Usa in Soviet Far East Trigger LLaTRS: has removed 1 Truck owned by Usa in Soviet Far East Trigger LLaFS: has removed 1 americanAntiAirGun owned by Usa in Soviet Far East Trigger LLabNFL2: has removed 1 americanNavalFighter owned by Usa in Labrador Trigger LLabNFL1: Britain has 1 britishNavalFighter placed in Labrador Trigger LLaTRS: Russia has 1 Truck placed in Soviet Far East Trigger LLaAS: Russia has 1 russianArtillery placed in Soviet Far East Trigger LLaFS: Russia has 1 russianAntiAirGun placed in Soviet Far East Usa collect 75 PUs; end with 75 PUs Units generate 9 techTokens; Usa end with 9 techTokensCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Usa : -0,58 Usa rolls : : 1,00 Japan : 0,58 DepthChargeAttack fire in 99 Sea Zone : : 0,75 -
@Gully Little confused here? What's with the transport casualty?
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@redrum your defending subs got a roll, and it was a hit. They should not, negative support from surface ships. I took out a Transport (so the combat is not affected) and edited it back in later. And the para it carried.
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@Gully Yeah, there is a bug though I was assuming we were playing it as is and allowing subs to roll. I don't think we had edited any other sub casualties or rolls or had agree to (and its very difficult in many cases if there isn't a transport to take).
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@redrum: Well I assumed we were player enforcing the rules as they are written. There weren't any defensive Sub hits until now so I guess we should have clarified beforehand.
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@Gully Hmm. I'd say generally any battle roll related map bugs (strength of units, support, etc) are usually played as is as they are very difficult to edit in all situations. For a long time in I think 2.7 or 2.8 there was some bugs around techs giving extra power to some of the infantry types (engineers I think it was) and those were always just played as is as trying to play as it was written was very difficult. Most other rules are played as written (movement, placement, etc) since they can easily be edited.
When determining Japan's purchase I assumed the subs would roll as I took the BC result and adjusted my casualties and your odds were around 25-30% once I optimized casualties. Otherwise I probably would have bought another destroyer since the subs not rolling is actually probably 5-10% difference as the 1/6 time they hit, it almost guarantees a Japan win.
@Hepps Any thoughts here?
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In this case it would be easy to edit. Just turn on Edit mode when subs are rolling and automiss with them. I didn't do it because more often then not it doesn't hit anyway.
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Hm yeah, if Hepps says something it would be helpful. Personally I would love to continue this game, and if I get Tokyo it's a close game, but if I don't get it it's a concede.
With subs it's more delicate than with inf, just because Sea Battles are more PU per hit and they snowball more extremely. Usually defending subs don't hit anyway (unless there are like 5+ subs and 5+ other ships defending), so it's not causing a lot of edit work. I always assumed these would be played as in the rules.
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Yeah, let's see if @Hepps has any thoughts. I see a few different options here:
- Rule as written: Assume the rule should have been understood to be played as written and move forward with the result with the edit you made.
- Rule as engine enforced: Assume the rule should have been understood to be played as the engine enforces it so revert the edit and either try to figure out what would have been left with the given battle rolls (definitely would be a Japanese win since it ended so close) or re-roll the entire battle allowing subs to roll.
- Replay: Since there was no agreement around the rule, allow Japan to adjust purchase if desired (as well as other nations if it would impact them though I doubt it would). And determine how to play the rule moving forward.
I generally lean towards option 3 as this is such a swing either way. Especially because that 1 sub hit essentially decides the battle as either US taking Tokyo with a small TUV fleet lose or Japan winning it outright with a larger TUV fleet loss.
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@redrum Since I have no idea how any mixed fleet battle was dealt with prior to this battle... I would use those as the precedent... that being said I also recognize that this battle in particular is a pretty significant juncture in the game.
I think that if it comes down to a game ending outcome...despite what had transpired earlier in the game... the two of you might want to consider the implications of the decision and find an agreeable compromise for this battle specifically. But ultimately the two of you need to make that call.
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Funny anecdote: I'm a handball referee, last Sunday I did a kid's match and at some point they had different opinions on what the rules dictate to happen next. Never punish them for not knowing, but explain and follow the rules. Well. But the analogy ends here, I can't expect a 15yo to read and memorize all the rules. And in handball, there is every ref's favourite rule 17:11 ("What the ref sees is immediately a fact. You can never argue about what the ref observes. Objections can only be made about what follows from the observation.")
In this game, well, there is no tournament or score or anything like that. Winning doesn't mean anything. I'd love to continue playing, I never had a TWW game progress this far and still not be decided. Usually, even one minor capital falling ends the game. (well, maybe the "Russian para to Finland" thing of our last match
. Or one could imagine Egypt falling but Allies still being well ahead) . We could call you @redrum the official winner and play on in the "what-if" scenario, and maybe make sure that your ~80% shot at retaking Tokyo is a success. That's like if you gave me the 20% shot at Tokyo, and it worked out. I guess it's still an interesting game to play, Russia and China almost dead, Japan slowed down but it was expensive for US, pressure on Europe. -
@Gully Well seems like @Hepps doesn't want to be our handball referee
I guess that would be option #4. I'm fine with that as well. I think probably that or option #3 are the most reasonable. It really comes down to if you'd prefer to try to play it out without the attack at all as I'd edit to buy another destroyer with Japan or if you'd prefer to play out the what-if scenario to see how capturing Tokyo goes.
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@redrum : I don't think I have much of a chance if we edit in a destroyer and I have to retreat. So if we continue with the game as iswe should keep enforcing the negative sub support, by edit rolling misses from now on. Would you agree?
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@redrum: So if you're fine with going ahead with option 4, you can go ahead and do Germanys turn.
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