Twelve Clans - Official Thread

Cernel

@NetHackFan1006 I think I'd leave the Ronin without a cap at all, if all other units have one.

NetHackFan1006

@Cernel From what I understand, the Ronin had to have a cap to give them the "is construction" property. The cap might be a problem if you hold most territories and or save your PUs to buy all Ronin. Realistically, no one should be able to build more than 99 per turn. A player needs 495 PUs to purchase 99 Ronin in one turn.

Cernel

@NetHackFan1006 said in Twelve Clans - Official Thread:

@Cernel From what I understand, the Ronin had to have a cap to give them the "is construction" property. That is why @Michael-Hoover made the cap 99. The cap might be a problem if you hold most territories and or save your PUs.

No, those are two completely unrelated caps. You can remove the "99" one, while keeping the other one.

As far as the construction cap goes, TripleA obliges you setting a cap there, and doesn't allow you actually to set infinite, correct, but you can set 1 million or whatever, so, in practice, infinite is virtually possible.

However, and this is what I meant and suggest to do, you can also use the "Unlimited Constructions" property, though that is actually not setting it to infinite, either, but to 10000, but only as long as (in the best naming hack TripleA traditions) the "type" name doesn't end in "structure".

However, the construction cap is a zone stack limit (neither a max units limit nor a production limit).

Long story short, you can just remove the "99" build cap, set the construction caps to 1 (both) and have "Unlimited Constructions" true while being sue the Ronin construction name type doesn't end in "structure", if you want to have no caps for them (in practice, they will be capped at 10000, but this is just a TripleA hack).

NetHackFan1006

@Cernel Interesting. I wonder if removing the Ronin cap would affect the AI. It's something we can try out.

Michael Hoover

Update 1.1 has been uploaded:
This update adds the sounds and music that I originally wanted to have for the initial release.

...

The next update forthcoming will feature expanded documentation and tweaks each clan to give them a more unique feel and play, hopefully adding a little more balance as well, although I do like the fact that some clans are inherently harder to play...

If anyone has any suggestions please fire away!

Michael Hoover

Update 1.2 is well underway with expanded documentation, some minor sound and graphical tweaks, additional sound bites for the starting clan leaders, and a clan specialty system to give each clan a slightly different play style.

I also wanted to point out for @Cernel that we have removed all unit caps except on Nobori, and to keep the AI purchasing in line several of the units' cost and/or attack/defense have been modified, hopefully bringing things more into balance. With any luck I should be able to roll it out this weekend or shortly thereafter :flexed_biceps:

Stay tuned...

Michael Hoover

Update 1.2 has been uploaded:

More sounds and music
Expanded Documentation
Clan Advantages
Ronin upkeep (rather than having the ronin for one round only, they now stick around but cost 2 PUs per round per ronin as an upkeep value)
No Unit caps (except on Nobori)
Modified unit stats and costs for balancing
Traitor tech added (if a vassal switches sides too many times they will be dubbed a traitor and can be destroyed)
Minor bug fixes/display errors

Feedback is much appreciated!

Cernel

@Michael-Hoover If 3 units have the same cost and one is 2/4, another 3/3 and another 4/2, the one that is 3/3 is next to useless (underpowered). A 2/4 unit combined with a 4/2 unit will be always better than two 3/3 units.

Of course, once you take the "national advantages" into consideration, if you give +1 offence to Bushi, and nothing to anyone else, then Teppo are absolutely useless for purchase, while, if you give +1 defence to Bushi, and nothing to anyone else, then Kyudoka are absolutely useless for purchase. If only Teppo or Kyudoka get any bonus, then Bushi are even more useless for purchase, naturally (and singularly useless if the bonus is on the offence of the Kyudoka or the defence of the Teppo).

No idea why, for example, in case of Chosokabe, you kept the Bushi as a purchasable unit? I'm sure you relize that the Teppo has 4 offence, instead of 3, for the Bushi, while all other values are exactly the same (am I overlooking anything?), making the Bushi abosolutely non-purchasable, singularly, once the caps are gone. I'm assuming the Bushi is still there for no particular reasons? By the way, the notes say that the value increase is for the offence, instead (well, it actually says "Offfense").

These are not the only issues with the current production frontiers.

My suggestion, get rid of any "National Advantages", and have the same units, with all the same values, for everyone, at least until you feel confident with those (just a suggestion to make things easier for you, and still wondering if there might be anything I'm missing).

Michael Hoover

@Cernel Thanks for the feedback!

I must admit I didn't give a whole lot of thought into the [2/4 + 4/2] > [3/3 + 3/3] argument. I was looking at it from an offense vs defense perspective, i.e. buy more Teppo if you are getting aggressive or buy more kyudoka to turtle up and defend. Looking at the percentages though I do see your point and will have a think on that for a bit.

I didn't remove any units from the frontiers just because I thought it would look weird. Obviously certain clans would have no reason to purchase certain units given the bonuses but I couldn't bring myself to not allow them to be available.

The units were modified so that nobori only increase ashigaru defense (except the Oda Nobori do +1/+1) and the samurai only increase ashigaru offense (except the Azai samuari do +1/+1) as part of the clan advantages theme.

I also believe the lowering of cost has helped balance them out, as without caps the AI does seem to purchase a variety of units (leaning toward their advantages of course).

Thanks for pointing out the typo. I went ahead and fixed that so if you want you can pull it again that'll be corrected. I also thought i had replaced the chart in the upper left corner but apparently what got released was the old chart, so I fixed that as well.

If you see anything else please let me know. Thanks for all your suggestions too, it is much appreciated.

Cernel

@Michael-Hoover said in Twelve Clans - Official Thread:

I didn't remove any units from the frontiers just because I thought it would look weird.

Well, weird for weird, to me it looks also weird that you have two couples of factions that, for example, start with a 3/3 unit upgraded defensively to 3/4 or a 2/4 unit upgraded offensively to 3/4, ending up with the exactly same frontier, once you omit the strictly worse units, but in name only. But this is not an issue, so I didn't mention it, to keep it short (and since my suggestion was to set aside the national advantages, anyway). What I mean is, in the example, Chosokabe has exactly the same usable frontier as Uesugi, beside the facts that the first one has a 3/3 unit never to buy and the second one has a 4/2 unit never to buy.

Obviously certain clans would have no reason to purchase certain units given the bonuses but I couldn't bring myself to not allow them to be available.

I see your point of view, but, for example, if I'm in WW2, nothing stops me from producing "pikemen" (and the English actually thought about it), but, if the "pikemen" unit would be something that I never want actually to purchase, then better not having the ability to do so. Really, leaving in the frontier something that the player is assumed never to buy is not sound, but this is just a minor annoyance, I suppose (having a unit that you need keep ignoring).

Thanks for pointing out the typo. I went ahead and fixed that so if you want you can pull it again that'll be corrected.

Actually, the typo was a side note. The matter is that it says "Improved Teppo Offense", while it should say "Improved Teppo Defense".

NetHackFan1006

@Cernel Would you suggest changing the dice system to allow for more variance in units? As with a d12 system I don't know how much we can change stats around from how they are now. Do you have any stat change or PU change suggestions instead of removing units from the map?

Cernel

@NetHackFan1006 I would strive to avoid going anywhere above a d12 system, but, of course, the higher the dice sides the easier to find solutions. Also in the moment the d12 is flavour for these kinda games (because of the boardgames), I think you should better stick with it.

Honestly, it would be very hard even for me to come up with a balanced system that keeps every unit worthwhile for everyone while having a mostly single value boost national advantage system in place for 12 different powers. And I'm not even going to think how to, then, deal with a requirement to work with any AI too.

As far as the basic units go, if the "national advantages" would not exist (everyone having exactly the same frontier), I could furnish a full set of balanced values, but I don't think either me or you want me to do that. This is your game, after all, not my mod of it.

Michael Hoover

Actually, the typo was a side note. The matter is that it says "Improved Teppo Offense", while it should say "Improved Teppo Defense".

I'll get that fixed shortly...thanks! Somehow I completely missed that

Michael Hoover

Update 1.3 should be out soon. This update will add clan objectives for bonus PUs, tweaks to the Bushi unit, and some additional graphical/audio modifications

Thomas Leavitt

I just played through this, solo, vs. all the other AI set to "Hard".

Against the AI, it was a bit of a cakewalk as the Oda. I built max Noburi on the first turn, then stormed over and crushed Miyoshi, stormed north and crushed Azai with a mass of Ashigaru that just kept building, and continued East with that growing horde. I gradually developed a secondary horde in the south and used that to storm West through various neutrals, who died with minimal casualties incurred and then mess with the western powers who had been busy beating each other senseless. In the meantime, I built a third horde to conquer neutrals in the center and forestall adventures by the mostly turtling Tokugawa in the south. My vassals also did their own conquering in a number of cases, starting with Miyoshi occupying much of the center and north, and thus forestalling any Eastern adventures by the western powers. I won on the 13th turn when my vassal Uesugi eventually made Tokugawa into a vassal, even though I only held three capitals on my own.

It seems like Ashigaru become overwhelmingly powerful even if used just as cannon fodder with enough supporting units and leaders.

Michael Hoover

@Thomas-Leavitt Nice

I wish I could convince the AI to invest more into the Nobori but I haven't found the sweet spot yet. Some clans are easier the win with than others as a result. I find playing the Azai or Chosokabe to be the most challenging.

ff03k64

Two comments so far. Triplea 2.2.20790, Map version 1.3.0. I am playing the 4 team version.

AI does not currently seem to build nobori at all. In my opinion they should probably be building up to the map max on the first turn, so it might be worth placing those units on the board, and making them have less PUs to start for almost the same effect. Doesn't help if they lose them, but helps the early game.

They are also taking their daimyos (is that the right name for them) as casualties. I think you want to make a purchase rule for them, and then give them a higher cost than most units.

edit: Found two more things. Kenin seem to be produced every turn after you capture a capital in this version. I feel like you are supposed to get one per capital you have taken. And i got an error that i made a new post for below.

Now that I have played it far enough to decide that I am going to win, i like the general dynamic of the map. AI suffers to some of those dynamics, but if i give them some extra resources at the start that should help some of them.

ff03k64

I just got this error.

Oct 07, 2020 1:08:45 PM games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.ui.panels.main.game.selector.GameSelectorModel load
INFO: Loaded game: Twelve Clans - Triads, in file: autosaveBeforeEndTurn.tsvg
Oct 07, 2020 1:09:04 PM org.triplea.game.client.HeadedGameRunner lambda$initializeClientSettingAndLogging$0
SEVERE: Comparison method violates its general contract!
java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Comparison method violates its general contract!
	at java.base/java.util.TimSort.mergeHi(TimSort.java:903)
	at java.base/java.util.TimSort.mergeAt(TimSort.java:520)
	at java.base/java.util.TimSort.mergeCollapse(TimSort.java:448)
	at java.base/java.util.TimSort.sort(TimSort.java:245)
	at java.base/java.util.Arrays.sort(Arrays.java:1515)
	at java.base/java.util.ArrayList.sort(ArrayList.java:1749)
	at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.util.ProSortMoveOptionsUtils.sortUnitNeededOptionsThenAttack(ProSortMoveOptionsUtils.java:116)
	at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.ProCombatMoveAi.tryToAttackTerritories(ProCombatMoveAi.java:1341)
	at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.ProCombatMoveAi.determineTerritoriesToAttack(ProCombatMoveAi.java:335)
	at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.ProCombatMoveAi.doCombatMove(ProCombatMoveAi.java:95)
	at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.AbstractProAi.move(AbstractProAi.java:139)
	at games.strategy.triplea.ai.AbstractAi.start(AbstractAi.java:514)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.waitForPlayerToFinishStep(ServerGame.java:537)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.runStep(ServerGame.java:407)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.startGame(ServerGame.java:297)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.LocalLauncher.launchInternal(LocalLauncher.java:86)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.LocalLauncher.lambda$launch$0(LocalLauncher.java:60)
	at java.base/java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:834)

Kevin Wedel

AI not producing is the least of the problem. The AI is able to find connections to provinces that have been removed from the map and crash the game when they attempt to move armies to them. Apparently Yamashiro is still in the game somewhere, and the AI can find it.

ff03k64

@Kevin-Wedel can you list the bad territories? Might be able to fix those.