Twelve Clans - Official Thread
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@Cernel Interesting. I wonder if removing the Ronin cap would affect the AI. It's something we can try out.
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Update 1.1 has been uploaded:
This update adds the sounds and music that I originally wanted to have for the initial release....
The next update forthcoming will feature expanded documentation and tweaks each clan to give them a more unique feel and play, hopefully adding a little more balance as well, although I do like the fact that some clans are inherently harder to play...
If anyone has any suggestions please fire away!
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Update 1.2 is well underway with expanded documentation, some minor sound and graphical tweaks, additional sound bites for the starting clan leaders, and a clan specialty system to give each clan a slightly different play style.
I also wanted to point out for @Cernel that we have removed all unit caps except on Nobori, and to keep the AI purchasing in line several of the units' cost and/or attack/defense have been modified, hopefully bringing things more into balance. With any luck I should be able to roll it out this weekend or shortly thereafter :flexed_biceps:
Stay tuned...
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Update 1.2 has been uploaded:
- More sounds and music
- Expanded Documentation
- Clan Advantages
- Ronin upkeep (rather than having the ronin for one round only, they now stick around but cost 2 PUs per round per ronin as an upkeep value)
- No Unit caps (except on Nobori)
- Modified unit stats and costs for balancing
- Traitor tech added (if a vassal switches sides too many times they will be dubbed a traitor and can be destroyed)
- Minor bug fixes/display errors
Feedback is much appreciated!
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@Michael-Hoover If 3 units have the same cost and one is 2/4, another 3/3 and another 4/2, the one that is 3/3 is next to useless (underpowered). A 2/4 unit combined with a 4/2 unit will be always better than two 3/3 units.
Of course, once you take the "national advantages" into consideration, if you give +1 offence to Bushi, and nothing to anyone else, then Teppo are absolutely useless for purchase, while, if you give +1 defence to Bushi, and nothing to anyone else, then Kyudoka are absolutely useless for purchase. If only Teppo or Kyudoka get any bonus, then Bushi are even more useless for purchase, naturally (and singularly useless if the bonus is on the offence of the Kyudoka or the defence of the Teppo).
No idea why, for example, in case of Chosokabe, you kept the Bushi as a purchasable unit? I'm sure you relize that the Teppo has 4 offence, instead of 3, for the Bushi, while all other values are exactly the same (am I overlooking anything?), making the Bushi abosolutely non-purchasable, singularly, once the caps are gone. I'm assuming the Bushi is still there for no particular reasons? By the way, the notes say that the value increase is for the offence, instead (well, it actually says "Offfense").
These are not the only issues with the current production frontiers.
My suggestion, get rid of any "National Advantages", and have the same units, with all the same values, for everyone, at least until you feel confident with those (just a suggestion to make things easier for you, and still wondering if there might be anything I'm missing).
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@Cernel Thanks for the feedback!
I must admit I didn't give a whole lot of thought into the [2/4 + 4/2] > [3/3 + 3/3] argument. I was looking at it from an offense vs defense perspective, i.e. buy more Teppo if you are getting aggressive or buy more kyudoka to turtle up and defend. Looking at the percentages though I do see your point and will have a think on that for a bit.
I didn't remove any units from the frontiers just because I thought it would look weird. Obviously certain clans would have no reason to purchase certain units given the bonuses but I couldn't bring myself to not allow them to be available.
The units were modified so that nobori only increase ashigaru defense (except the Oda Nobori do +1/+1) and the samurai only increase ashigaru offense (except the Azai samuari do +1/+1) as part of the clan advantages theme.
I also believe the lowering of cost has helped balance them out, as without caps the AI does seem to purchase a variety of units (leaning toward their advantages of course).
Thanks for pointing out the typo. I went ahead and fixed that so if you want you can pull it again that'll be corrected. I also thought i had replaced the chart in the upper left corner but apparently what got released was the old chart, so I fixed that as well.
If you see anything else please let me know. Thanks for all your suggestions too, it is much appreciated.
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@Michael-Hoover said in Twelve Clans - Official Thread:
I didn't remove any units from the frontiers just because I thought it would look weird.
Well, weird for weird, to me it looks also weird that you have two couples of factions that, for example, start with a 3/3 unit upgraded defensively to 3/4 or a 2/4 unit upgraded offensively to 3/4, ending up with the exactly same frontier, once you omit the strictly worse units, but in name only. But this is not an issue, so I didn't mention it, to keep it short (and since my suggestion was to set aside the national advantages, anyway). What I mean is, in the example, Chosokabe has exactly the same usable frontier as Uesugi, beside the facts that the first one has a 3/3 unit never to buy and the second one has a 4/2 unit never to buy.
Obviously certain clans would have no reason to purchase certain units given the bonuses but I couldn't bring myself to not allow them to be available.
I see your point of view, but, for example, if I'm in WW2, nothing stops me from producing "pikemen" (and the English actually thought about it), but, if the "pikemen" unit would be something that I never want actually to purchase, then better not having the ability to do so. Really, leaving in the frontier something that the player is assumed never to buy is not sound, but this is just a minor annoyance, I suppose (having a unit that you need keep ignoring).
Thanks for pointing out the typo. I went ahead and fixed that so if you want you can pull it again that'll be corrected.
Actually, the typo was a side note. The matter is that it says "Improved Teppo Offense", while it should say "Improved Teppo Defense".
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@Cernel Would you suggest changing the dice system to allow for more variance in units? As with a d12 system I don't know how much we can change stats around from how they are now. Do you have any stat change or PU change suggestions instead of removing units from the map?
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@NetHackFan1006 I would strive to avoid going anywhere above a d12 system, but, of course, the higher the dice sides the easier to find solutions. Also in the moment the d12 is flavour for these kinda games (because of the boardgames), I think you should better stick with it.
Honestly, it would be very hard even for me to come up with a balanced system that keeps every unit worthwhile for everyone while having a mostly single value boost national advantage system in place for 12 different powers. And I'm not even going to think how to, then, deal with a requirement to work with any AI too.
As far as the basic units go, if the "national advantages" would not exist (everyone having exactly the same frontier), I could furnish a full set of balanced values, but I don't think either me or you want me to do that. This is your game, after all, not my mod of it.
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Actually, the typo was a side note. The matter is that it says "Improved Teppo Offense", while it should say "Improved Teppo Defense".
I'll get that fixed shortly...thanks! Somehow I completely missed that
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Update 1.3 should be out soon. This update will add clan objectives for bonus PUs, tweaks to the Bushi unit, and some additional graphical/audio modifications
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I just played through this, solo, vs. all the other AI set to "Hard".
Against the AI, it was a bit of a cakewalk as the Oda. I built max Noburi on the first turn, then stormed over and crushed Miyoshi, stormed north and crushed Azai with a mass of Ashigaru that just kept building, and continued East with that growing horde. I gradually developed a secondary horde in the south and used that to storm West through various neutrals, who died with minimal casualties incurred and then mess with the western powers who had been busy beating each other senseless. In the meantime, I built a third horde to conquer neutrals in the center and forestall adventures by the mostly turtling Tokugawa in the south. My vassals also did their own conquering in a number of cases, starting with Miyoshi occupying much of the center and north, and thus forestalling any Eastern adventures by the western powers. I won on the 13th turn when my vassal Uesugi eventually made Tokugawa into a vassal, even though I only held three capitals on my own.
It seems like Ashigaru become overwhelmingly powerful even if used just as cannon fodder with enough supporting units and leaders.
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@Thomas-Leavitt Nice
I wish I could convince the AI to invest more into the Nobori but I haven't found the sweet spot yet. Some clans are easier the win with than others as a result. I find playing the Azai or Chosokabe to be the most challenging.
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Two comments so far. Triplea 2.2.20790, Map version 1.3.0. I am playing the 4 team version.
AI does not currently seem to build nobori at all. In my opinion they should probably be building up to the map max on the first turn, so it might be worth placing those units on the board, and making them have less PUs to start for almost the same effect. Doesn't help if they lose them, but helps the early game.
They are also taking their daimyos (is that the right name for them) as casualties. I think you want to make a purchase rule for them, and then give them a higher cost than most units.
edit: Found two more things. Kenin seem to be produced every turn after you capture a capital in this version. I feel like you are supposed to get one per capital you have taken. And i got an error that i made a new post for below.
Now that I have played it far enough to decide that I am going to win, i like the general dynamic of the map. AI suffers to some of those dynamics, but if i give them some extra resources at the start that should help some of them.
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I just got this error.
Oct 07, 2020 1:08:45 PM games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.ui.panels.main.game.selector.GameSelectorModel load INFO: Loaded game: Twelve Clans - Triads, in file: autosaveBeforeEndTurn.tsvg Oct 07, 2020 1:09:04 PM org.triplea.game.client.HeadedGameRunner lambda$initializeClientSettingAndLogging$0 SEVERE: Comparison method violates its general contract! java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Comparison method violates its general contract! at java.base/java.util.TimSort.mergeHi(TimSort.java:903) at java.base/java.util.TimSort.mergeAt(TimSort.java:520) at java.base/java.util.TimSort.mergeCollapse(TimSort.java:448) at java.base/java.util.TimSort.sort(TimSort.java:245) at java.base/java.util.Arrays.sort(Arrays.java:1515) at java.base/java.util.ArrayList.sort(ArrayList.java:1749) at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.util.ProSortMoveOptionsUtils.sortUnitNeededOptionsThenAttack(ProSortMoveOptionsUtils.java:116) at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.ProCombatMoveAi.tryToAttackTerritories(ProCombatMoveAi.java:1341) at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.ProCombatMoveAi.determineTerritoriesToAttack(ProCombatMoveAi.java:335) at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.ProCombatMoveAi.doCombatMove(ProCombatMoveAi.java:95) at games.strategy.triplea.ai.pro.AbstractProAi.move(AbstractProAi.java:139) at games.strategy.triplea.ai.AbstractAi.start(AbstractAi.java:514) at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.waitForPlayerToFinishStep(ServerGame.java:537) at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.runStep(ServerGame.java:407) at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.startGame(ServerGame.java:297) at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.LocalLauncher.launchInternal(LocalLauncher.java:86) at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.LocalLauncher.lambda$launch$0(LocalLauncher.java:60) at java.base/java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:834) -
AI not producing is the least of the problem. The AI is able to find connections to provinces that have been removed from the map and crash the game when they attempt to move armies to them. Apparently Yamashiro is still in the game somewhere, and the AI can find it.
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@Kevin-Wedel can you list the bad territories? Might be able to fix those.
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Sekigahara produces "Comparison method violates its general contract! java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Comparison method violates its general contract"
The province bug does not always seem to happen. Also this error only seems to occur with fast AI so far.
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I like this game a lot. My sons and I are having a lot of fun with it. I really appreciate all the hard work that the designers put into it. I especially like how players are never really fully eliminated.
My computer is having memory issues with java heap space especially in later rounds over a thousand units are on the map. Even before reaching java heap space limits, the shear number of units will cause the game to move very slowly between turn phases.
To help with memory related performance issues, I request that the developers add a version where number of units supported are cut in half. This would be very easy to do while keeping all of the fun game elements. (perhaps this is why 270BC has a 40% version)
As far as the AI error that people are noticing, I have had it happen with fast and hard AI, and so far with clans on the far right of the playing board (Date and Uesugi)
Here's an idea to help the AI make better decisions. Right now the commanders and ashiguru have a value of 0. This causes the AI to misunderstand the value of these units. If the commanders are given a value of 30 and the ashiguru a value of 2, then I think that this would make a difference, perhaps preventing the AI from sacrificing its commanders for short term gains.
Finally, why do the Hojo Ninja not have -1 power to 5 enemy ashiguru? Why are heroes with movement of one not land transportable?
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The below minor code changes make a huge difference in playability, especially with AI.
Pros:
Less memory required; runs much faster
AI does not throw way heroes in battle in preference to keeping less valuable units
AI does not throw away Nobori in battle in preference to keeping less valuable units
AI is motivated to build Nobori
Powerful Bushi now cost more than basic units with movement of only one
Artificial Nobori build limit is removed
Territory-based Nobori limit encourages taking more risks to gain territory
"General Contract Violation" error is fixed (probably due to the heroes, Ashigaru, and Kanjin having a cost of more than zero)
AI is more aggressive and makes better phase and turn decisions because heroes, Ashigaru, and Kanjin have a cost more than zeroCons:
Fewer situations where Ronin may be helpful
No more commanding gigantic armies with 500 units in them and getting over 200 hits in the first round.Note:
Oda national advantage is that its Nobori can recruit Ashigaru in allied territories and vice versa.Code Changes Required:
Change code where applicable to make all heroes produce create only 1 unit per turn and they support half as many allied units as before (e.g. support value now equals 100 instead of 200)Change code for production and Nobori attachments as below...
<productionRule name="buyBushi"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="7"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Bushi" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTeppo"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="6"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Teppo" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyKyudoka"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="6"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Kyudoka" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyRonin"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="8"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Ronin" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyNobori"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="12"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Nobori" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buySamurai"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="10"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Samurai" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyMawari"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="11"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Mawari" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyNinja"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="12"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Ninja" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <!-- specialized units --> <productionRule name="buyBoeiBushi"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="7"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Boei-Bushi" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTsumiBushi"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="7"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tsumi-Bushi" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyBoeiTeppo"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="6"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Boei-Teppo" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTsumiTeppo"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="6"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tsumi-Teppo" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyBoeiKyudoka"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="6"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Boei-Kyudoka" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTsumiKyudoka"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="6"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tsumi-Kyudoka" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyEritoNobori"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="12"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Erito-Nobori" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyEritoSamurai"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="10"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Erito-Samurai" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTsumiSamurai"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="10"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tsumi-Samurai" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTsumiMawari"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="11"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tsumi-Mawari" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyBoeiNinja"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="12"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Boei-Ninja" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTsumiNinja"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="12"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tsumi-Ninja" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <!-- give PU value to units that cannot be produced to help AI make better decisions --> <productionRule name="buyAshigaru"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="3"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Ashigaru" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyKanjin"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="10"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Kanjin" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyKenin"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="30"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Kenin" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyAzai-Nagamasa"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Azai-Nagamasa" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTodo-Takatora"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Todo-Takatora" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyOtani-Yoshitsugu"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Otani-Yoshitsugu" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyChosokabe-Motochika"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Chosokabe-Motochika" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buySaika-Magoichi"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Saika-Magoichi" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyAkechi-Mitsuhide"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Akechi-Mitsuhide" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyDate-Masamune"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Date-Masamune" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyKatakura-Kojuro"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Katakura-Kojuro" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyYagyu-Munenori"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Yagyu-Munenori" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyHojo-Ujiyasu"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Hojo-Ujiyasu" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyFuma-Kotaro"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Fuma-Kotaro" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyHojo-Ujimasa"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Hojo-Ujimasa" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyMiyoshi-Masanaga"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Miyoshi-Masanaga" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyMatsunaga-Hisahide"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Matsunaga-Hisahide" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTomomichi-Ishinari"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tomomichi-Ishinari" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyMori-Motonari"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Mori-Motonari" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTakenaka-Hanbei"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Takenaka-Hanbei" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyKobayakawa-Takakage"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Kobayakawa-Takakage" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyOda-Nobunaga"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Oda-Nobunaga" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyMaeda-Toshiie"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Maeda-Toshiie" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyHashiba-Hideyoshi"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Hashiba-Hideyoshi" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyOtomo-Yoshishige"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Otomo-Yoshishige" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTachibana-Muneshige"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tachibana-Muneshige" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTachibana-Ginchiyo"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tachibana-Ginchiyo" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyShimazu-Yoshihiro"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Shimazu-Yoshihiro" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyShimazu-Toyohisa"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Shimazu-Toyohisa" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyIshida-Mitsunari"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Ishida-Mitsunari" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTakeda-Shingen"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Takeda-Shingen" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buySanada-Nobuyuki"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Sanada-Nobuyuki" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buySanada-Yukimura"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Sanada-Yukimura" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyTokugawa-Ieyasu"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Tokugawa-Ieyasu" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyHattori-Hanzo"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Hattori-Hanzo" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyHonda-Tadakatsu"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Honda-Tadakatsu" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyUesugi-Kenshin"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Uesugi-Kenshin" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyUesugi-Kagekatsu"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Uesugi-Kagekatsu" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <productionRule name="buyNaoe-Kanetsugu"> <cost resource="PUs" quantity="60"/> <result resourceOrUnit="Naoe-Kanetsugu" quantity="1"/> </productionRule> <attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="Nobori" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType"> <option name="attack" value="2"/> <option name="defense" value="7"/> <option name="movement" value="1"/> <option name="isLandTransportable" value="true"/> <option name="createsUnitsList" value="1:Ashigaru"/> <!-- <option name="maxBuiltPerPlayer" value="3"/> --> <option name="placementLimit" value="allied" count="1"/> <option name="movementLimit" value="allied" count="1"/> </attachment> <attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="Erito-Nobori" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType"> <option name="attack" value="2"/> <option name="defense" value="7"/> <option name="movement" value="1"/> <option name="isLandTransportable" value="true"/> <option name="createsUnitsList" value="1:Ashigaru"/> <!-- <option name="maxBuiltPerPlayer" value="4"/> --> <option name="placementLimit" value="owned" count="1"/> <option name="movementLimit" value="owned" count="1"/> </attachment>
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