Tournament of Champions (Season 4) for AA 50 Anniversary '41 version

[General_Zod]

@Deltium
People always seem to have confusion of how aircraft carriers and their fighters function.

I have not seen anywhere in this topic the official rules that we will be using with regards to aircraft carriers.

Can you please post them so there is no confusion during the game.

[prastle]

@general_zod I will search for @Deltium better post but haven't found it yet it does exist. Hopefully he knows where it was
but here is the short version
Clarifying Fighters entering combat legally: As long as the AC has a >0% chance of reaching a land-able sea zone (based on LL calc if using LL rules), then a fighter can make the move. No kamikaze figs allowed.

[General_Zod]

@prastle @deltium

Ok, there is a bit more to it. Off the top of my head, these should also be addressed in addition.

1. Do ACC have to move to pickup location during CM?

2. If above is false, then does the ACC have to move to pickup location during NCM, even if the fighters that were supposed to land have been killed?

3. If point 1. is false, then what is the rule on a double enemy block of ACC.?

EG. The ACC begins the turn in sz A and wants to pickup fighters in sz C. However sz B has an enemy ships blocking the path to sz C, and there is also enemy ships in sz C (pickup location).

4. Regarding example above. If a LL game, it can be calculated, that the fighters that are supposed to land on ACC in sz C are in fact going to die with 100% certainty. If all that is needed is a >0% chance of successfully clearing sz B and sz C. Then it allows the attacker to launch attacks on sz B and sz C that have only .01% chance of success and allow a exploited suicide of the fighters that are supposed land in sz C.

As you know there are many variations to this subject in the lobby games, thus its very easy to confuse the rules.

[redrum]

@general_zod I believe standard rules are:

1. Only if the potential landing spot involves attacking enemy sea units.
2. No, if the fighters die then the ACC doesn't have to move.
3. ACC has to be "ABLE" to move to whatever the pickup sea zone is during combat move (but doesn't have to make the move unless enemies are there) otherwise the fighter's move is illegal.
4. LL doesn't matter when considering carrier/fighter landing. As long as the carrier can move to the sea zone with the battle (even given LL it is definitely going to die), its still a legal move.

[General_Zod]

@redrum @prastle Sorry for the edits, you responded so fast.

[prastle]

@general_zod @redrum no worries gz I am annoyed at myself because @Deltium did an excellent synopsis a year or more ago but I have lost it.

Anyways the greater than 1% rule means the acs in non combat must have at least a 1 % chance of survival to p/up the fighters if they magically survive.

[General_Zod]

@deltium @redrum @prastle

So looks like player enforced rules apply.

[redrum]

Here is a more detailed explanation from WaW:

Aircraft-Carrier Combat Move - During combat movement, the movement of any aircrafts requiring landing on carriers is legal only if a minimum number of carriers required for landing all aircrafts either:

• Move to the landing zones, during combat movement (even if they have no chance of winning the battle, if any).
• Can move to the landing zones, during non combat movement, without moving into or through any sea zones that are hostile at the start of the turn. (in any case, as per normal rules, you are allowed to move a carrier during combat movement only if starting or ending movement in a hostile sea zone (to escape combat or to do combat or both); otherwise, you must wait non combat movement, to move the carrier at all) (all the restrictions at this point apply only and exclusively to determine what movements are allowed during combat movement, and have no relevance anymore once the combat movement phase is over; not restricting casualties' selection, retreat choices or non combat movement (see below))

Aircraft-Carrier Non Combat Move - During non combat movement, if there are any aircrafts requiring landing on carriers, then moves must be made by carriers and aircrafts under the only special limit to maximize the number of aircrafts that can safely land (eventually also by moving into or through non-hostile (no enemy units but submerged submarines) sea zones that were hostile at the start of the turn, if needed or preferred), no matter what movements carriers were previously assumed eventually to make, nor what carriers were supposed to pick up which fighters, during combat movement (if the aircrafts are killed in combat or other carriers are available due to retreating, the carriers accounted for validating combat movements that are not anymore needed to safely land any aircrafts can move wherever).

[prastle]

@general_zod oh yes. It always has been. The engine will allow you to cheat.
Kami isn't allowed.

[prastle]

@Redrum this is where his 1 % rule applies

Move to the landing zones, during combat movement (even if they have no chance of winning the battle, if any).

[redrum]

@prastle I don't believe there is any rule around the carriers need to have 1% or any chance of survival.

[prastle]

@General_Zod @redrum it must be possible for the planes to land by at least 1% otherwise it is kami

[prastle]

@redrum sorry i said 1% really its .1%

[redrum]

Here are the official rules from the game manual:

You cannot send air units on “suicide runs,” deliberately moving them into combat with no place to land afterward. If there is any question about whether an attack is a “suicide run,” then in the Combat Move phase, you must declare, prior to rolling any battles, some possible way (however remote the possibility is) for all your attacking air units to land safely that turn. This could include a combination of combat moves. It could also include noncombat moves by a carrier. If it does include noncombat moves by a carrier, then the carrier cannot move in the Combat Move phase.

In order to demonstrate that an air unit MAY have a safe landing zone, you may assume that all of your attacking rolls will be hits, and all defending rolls will be misses. You cannot, however, use a planned retreat of any carrier to demonstrate a possible safe landing zone for any fighter.

If you declared that a carrier will move during the Noncombat Move phase to provide a safe landing zone for a fighter moved in the Combat Move phase, you must follow through and move the carrier to its planned location in the Noncombat Move phase unless the fighter has landed safely elsewhere or has been destroyed before then.

[General_Zod]

@prastle

Not to be a pain in the ass, but determining legal or illegal combat moves by the criteria of either >0% or at least 1%, survival of landing aircraft or clearing of sea zones that allow pickup of said aircraft. Leaves openings to interpret rules in a couple ways allowing for exploitations via what is essentially kamikaze.

[prastle]

@redrum which basically means a .1% chance the ac survives to be able to land the fighters thus why he said if using ll.

[Raville]

@cernel Hi Cernel, it has been a pleasure to hear from you again, we haven't seen you in lobby wishing you'll come again soon. Greetings to you friend, Raville

[prastle]

@general_zod @redrum If it were dice this discussion would be moot. Since this is only possible in dice not ll.
MAY have a safe landing zone, you may assume that all of your attacking rolls will be hits, and all defending rolls will be misses.

[Panther]

@redrum The latest rulebook (of the reprint) elaborates even more on this subject:

*You cannot deliberately send air units into combat situations that place them out of range of a place to land afterward. In the Combat Move phase, prior to rolling any battles, you must be able to demonstrate some possible way (however remote the possibility is) for all your attacking air units to land safely that turn. This could include a combination of combat moves. It could also include noncombat moves by a carrier or the mobilization of a new carrier. If it does include noncombat moves by a carrier, then the carrier cannot move in the Combat Move phase.

In order to demonstrate that an air unit MAY have a safe landing zone, you may assume that all of your attacking rolls will be hits, and all defending rolls will be misses. You cannot, however, use a planned retreat of any carrier to demonstrate a possible safe landing zone for any fighter. Once possible landing spaces for all attacking air units have been demonstrated, you have no obligation to guarantee those landing zones for air units in the course of battle. For example, aircraft carriers
may freely retreat or be taken as casualties, even if doing so leaves air units with no place to land after combat (such air units will be destroyed at the end of the Noncombat Move phase). However, during Noncombat Movement you must provide for safe landing of as many air units as remains possible after all combats are resolved.

If you declared that a carrier will move during the Noncombat Move phase to provide a safe landing zone for a fighter moved in the Combat Move phase, you must follow through and move the carrier to its planned location in the Noncombat Move phase unless the fighter has landed safely elsewhere or has been destroyed before then or a combat required to clear an intervening sea zone failed to do so. Likewise, if you declared that a new carrier will be mobilized to provide a safe landing zone for a fighter, it must be mobilized in that sea zone unless the fighter has landed safely elsewhere or has been destroyed.*

[prastle]

@Panther yes in dice it is a moot point you can assume acs will live. We cant do that in ll thus the calc of .1%