Mega New Elk WIP
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I just commented out the old stuff just in case you wanted to revert back. When you push your next save setup game, all comments will be removed, so no problems.
Cheers...
P.S let me know if you change the Neutral Axis(~10)/Allied(~50) territories. You don't have to tell me which were changed, just let me know that there were changes. The variable list is not that hard to do but it is time consuming.
Cheers...
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@wc_sumpton said in Mega New Elk WIP:
Since Neutral Axis/Alllies are not used in the main ('41) map, they could be removed. Your call.
Yea I would leave them. It'll be good to have them handy for anyone that wants to mod it and I believe some will be needed anyway.
We don't want a buncha empty TTys I wouldn't think. Impassable or not. Just from a visual perspective.
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No problem, but none of the territories are marked "captureUnitOnEnteringBy", for the basic map.
Cheers...
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well you'd still need them just so they can be on the map. Wether they do anything or not.
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hmm ... we seem to have lost the M3 ability for land units from Fctrys. I will add it back in on my next update.
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So this is what I'm thinking, using WC suggestion from a few days ago we can take basically every 4-6 PU territory and just make that a 3 PU tile, and do that move like was mentioned or something similar. Every Territory worth 3 PU gets bumped down to 2 say, which are like our optimal factory hop locations for Minors (either already in place, or via purchase). Then it's just a question of which of the remaining 2 PU value spots, get dropped down to 1 or maybe just stay at 2 for potential rail options or Axis to stay somewhat even with Allies, who have more spots under their control at the start.
Using Italy as an example...
Milan 3
Rome 3
Naples 2
Venice 2
Istria 2
Sardinia 2
Sicily 2
Tripoli 2
Benghazi 2
Italian Somaliland 2
the rest at 1 PU gives a total of35 starting Production for Italy.
That feels pretty good to me, I mean it's more than the standard G40. Likely enough to be credible, with a couple Factory rail options there, but not too insane. With a slight boost up from additional TUV in one or more of those empty Territories or Sea Zones, I think that would be plenty for the Italians at this scale.
For Russia we can do something similar. Right now they have 139 Production. I think we could get down to at least 130 with something like Moscow reduced to 3 PU (sorta same there as G40) then all the rest of their spots getting knocked back from 3-4 down to 2 production. In G40 Soviet Union starts with 30 PUs, so this would be like that with an extra 100 on top, but it could still suggest a similar vibe with that callback.
Germany right now is at 84, French purse is likewise around 80 currently. I think Germany we could also lowball a bit, given that they will takeover production from Metro France and North Africa, but it probably does make sense to keep a few Axis starting territories sightly higher than Allies for parity. In any case that basic idea of going low, I think it should work fine. Then it will be easier to parse out the totals so that they're a little simpler to manage.
USA seemed pretty good to me, though the way I did the control they will also be able to pick up some cash from Brazil and such. I think it makes sense for the start date to have Mexico and Central America treated as Pro Allied neutral. USA can basically bring Mexico onto the team on their first turn from the M3 factory rail out of Texas and Southern California. Gives them something to do, and so they can also pick up some cash, if we want to lower the ceiling throughout I mean. UK just needs some of those satellite hubs I think to stretch towards the middle. And to ensure they have enough to place at the home islands, like to hold against a concerted German press.
Overall looks really cool to me. I was having a blast just looking at it
I think with the M+1 factory rail thing in place we can start teasing out openers, and hopefully can get the vibe on that little extra bit of distance to make it all click
Fun stuff! Thanks again for all the help! I definitely wouldn't be able to get this sort of thing together without all the helping hands here. Kickass!
ps. I didn't do the starting income totals when I made the other edits, but I think we could just have it match starting production once that's sorted. Then when PUs are all dialed, we can simply reduce the starting cash by whatever amount (nation to nation) till it feels comfortable for the first round purchase/play pattern.
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
I didn't do the starting income totals when I made the other edits, but I think we could just have it match starting production once that's sorted. Then when PUs are all dialed, we can simply reduce the starting cash by whatever amount (nation to nation) till it feels comfortable for the first round purchase/play pattern.
Yes, I seen that. What I can do is put a dummy EndTurn for every player at the start to give them their PUs. In this way they get their starting PUs even when it changes.
Cheers...
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Each player collects a starting income. I've done a wholesale PUs reduction.
Germans 51
Russians 110
Japanese 45
Americans 99
Chinese 21
British 120
Italians 34
ANZAC 28
French 61Allies 439
Axis 130Cheers...
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@beelee said in Mega New Elk WIP:
hmm ... we seem to have lost the M3 ability for land units from Fctrys. I will add it back in on my next update.
These units seem to be copied from G50, and M3 was not added from what I remember. So, add away, unless you want me to do it.
Cheers...
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no it's ok. I will do it. It was done in my last update . 1.343 I didn't document it though. My bad
Not a big deal. Trying to get my energy up to do some work. The dig out from the blizzard wore me out
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You take it easy. When we moved here, our children are all grown, so we didn't need a big house, I bought a small plastic $90 snow blower. It's not much, sometimes I have to run it while it's still snowing. Still, it's better than shoveling.
Cheers...
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heh was ice storm than snow. Sno blo no good
Was like mucking concrete lolI guess that's why people have kids. Can't find any that wanna work these days
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@beelee said in Mega New Elk WIP:
I guess that's why people have kids. Can't find any that wanna work these days
Cheers...
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This is looking very nice! I feel like these are definitely totals we can work with. I ran a quicky FastAI Game, and the computer player is making some big moves now.
Even with the very limited starting TUV I laid down in the templet, they will start to organize are the Rail +1 pretty quickly. I'm not sure that the computer will attempt to blitz at the full m3 distance with their Tanks and Paired mech, but they will definitely position that way to reinforce on Non Combat. When I ran it for a trial computer Germany attacked Paris, advanced on Normandy, Vichy, Orleans. They also advanced into Tunisia with the little Afrika corps pocket force. Then Italy snapped up Marseille on their turn. G2 Germany mopped up the rest in Wester Europe then redirects vs USSR. Not too shabby! With a little fine tuning should do the trick.
On the Pacific side, Japan was quick to stomp into China, of course, but here I think we can do that same trick (like I did in Belgium) of just adding a new force to nearby Territory/subdivision.
As an example, perhaps the Chinese can have a second Flying Tiger and a couple Artillery pieces at Szechuan (currently an empty spot). Or similarly perhaps they have a another token force with some extra Artillery pieces ready to go in spot like Sinkiang. If there are front line territories currently empty those might have a starting Inf as a blocker, that sort of thing. All told maybe we add a dozen hitpoints or more for the Chinese, and then we have a ready way to counterbalance that faction vs Japan, just so they don't get pancaked too hard.
An active Warfront between USSR and Japan can similarly be somewhat controlled by the starting TUV we elect to add, like which new pocket forces for the juice up there. Perhaps they are in starting positions where USSR and Japan they can skirmish, but where both sides are sorted more oriented in other directions, so a full blown tit for tat becomes less optimal compared to say Japan moving vs UK/France/China etc, or Soviets focusing on the Eastern Front instead.
I was quite pleased just watching the FastAI go through the motions and seeing how they used what was already laid down. Should be a fun way to tease out a playpattern I would think. I will keep my efforts sorta focused on the 1940 since I think that could serve as a nice foundation for other dates, or just to establish a kind of general playscale, which can then be added onto. This will be fun!
Thanks again gang! Way to bang it out there! I'm going to up for a while now. Having a blast
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Mini update
Tried to do it different so the extra crap doesn't show up. I don't think I was successful but maybe wc's cleanup fixed it for good
Anyway, wanted to get Elk into M3 mode so he can play with openers
Gonna fry, unless I stay up for the new Reacher lolP Out
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changed it to 1.341 so it's different then 1.34. Didn't do notes so just a quickie.
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Looks cool
When we get the M+1 factories stuff in place and the Territories at the lower values ala that trick WC did for the production/cash, I think we could rename the previous 41/2 themed iteration 'WIP 42' or something similar (come back to it later). We can have the 40 up as the default for now, since that's what I'll use.
For the tanks at M3 off the factory spots, works for the player currently with that last one (though the production values/cash were the highball there). Right now though in the one I fired up, the computer will still only use it's tank/mech for maneuvers at m2 distance, even if starting from the factory territory. Not sure what controls that one, but maybe we can get them going the full distance somehow with a bit of legwork. Might just be from how the blitz is pegged for tank m2 units normally. Computer doesn't seem much interested in purchasing new factories, so it might make sense to add a minor or two where we want them, or for producing/moving consistently. In any case, I can easily imagine it coming together here. I think using the Fast/HardAI behavior as the guide we try to peg an opener just using a few extra pocket forces here and there to get a nice scale up going for the playpattern.
Cool digs! Great work
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Some observations while watching the computer open for the last couple hours.
Currently Japan won't advance into French Indo China or any of the Dutch starting territories. Not sure there what could be the deal. Curiously, when I switched these same spots to Pro-Allied neutral, then Japan did overrun French Indo China, but they still avoided the Dutch islands - even though though these are relatively productive.
Using different starting units for Japan will give different results but for the most part regardless of starting position to other places, they will almost always just attack Philippines, maybe Singapore and Hong Kong as well, seemed to be the most common. Then they advanced mostly against China/USSR. Trying to locate starting TUV targeting more central Pacific they would typically pull back towards Coastal China or Philippines, sorta just what they would do. The do seem more inclined to make attacks with a few extra tanks though, so I think that could be a decent way to set things up for them. Similar to how infantry function in classic, the computer/player would want to reposition them and make efficient use of the transports to potentially grab some high value starting TUV that way but where it is more out of position from the mainland contest, where it invariably will end up. I mean computer just sorta does what a player might in that respect. It pulls everything back to stack into China more or less, then pushes across the middle if it can.
For the neutrality stuff in other areas, I saw that if a territory was Pro-Side the computers behavior towards it will be somewhat inconsistent. For example Germany will advance into Finland and pick up those unit, but then sorta ignores Bulgaria. If Bulgaria is made Pro-Allies instead of Pro-Axis then computer Germany/Italy would attack and press into unoccupied enemy tiles. Similar Britain would not advance into say Persia when set as Pro-Allies, but if set as Pro-Axis then it would. This seems to be fairly consistent where everyone will try to kill the Pro-Neutrals of the opposing team, but won't reliably bring a neutral of their own team into the mix. Another example was Greece, where Italy would attack if Pro-Allies but Britain would not activate them as Pro-Team. If instead I made Greece Pro-Axis then Italy would say home, and Britain would attempt to invade. So basically sort the exact opposite of what one might expect from the computer behavior, compared to player. All this makes me think that some simplified handling for neutrals may be desirable.
For the basic attack pattern and purchasing behavior, this is somewhat down to the individual nation, but what I was seeing with the lower Cash map, USA will mostly continue to spam transports and fleet while wheeling around across the ocean, usually to the North in the Pacific and then more towards the South in the Atlantic. They would only pick up Mexico or Brazil, if I set those spots to Pro Axis rather than pro Allies again a bit odd, but even without the cash, USA tended to end up in Africa without too much of a delay.
The idea of a pocket force in China seemed to work reasonably well. More of a delay than anything, but least gave the Allies a few more things to think about on that front.
Russia, like all nations, tends to buy many bombers, which can feel a bit odd. I think it is just any time a nation has high cash, and somewhat limited production, they will spam the bombers. This wouldn't be so bad, but then the Computer player will tend to stack them all into a single pile. So instead of 2 groups of 6 bombers in different parts of the map, AI will group them all dozen together. After a few rounds they can be into the 20s with these which is very extreme. I think lower cash will help.
Infantry stacks likewise trend pretty large when they consolidate but the factory m+1 does seem to encourage them to move forward more as opposed to just stacking up. Hopefully more fall to attrition with the movement at +1 from factories.
I have been trying both HardAI and FastAI just to see what sorts of things it would do. Here is one of the savegames I kept using Edit, just to play around and see what the AI does. This is not like a set set up, but just what I was using to experiment. I tried to give token forces is spots which made sense to me, but to keep it somewhat smaller just to see how things scale up from different starts.
Here's a save using the xml from earlier tonight, the low production spread (didn't have the m3 when I started just ballparking). It was pretty trick to watch though!
2025-3-6-Mega-New-Elk-1940_wip.tsvg
Here's a quick image of what I was up to...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LMJROYSMUINHyGlC2JgFFrkNyS7IcKRK/view?usp=sharing
I can tinker a bit more tomorrow
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Ps. Here was an interesting glimpse into the computer running against itself. After 7 rounds the AI's playpattern was like this...
2025-3-6-Mega-New-Elk-1940_wip_round_7.tsvg
At the the regular M1/M2 distance Germany didn't quite have the juice to make it to Moscow, but they still managed reasonably well and even made for some naval fireworks off Jutland last round hehe.
The Africa pocket for Axis held up pretty well too. Allies ended up going after France, rather than pushing up on Italy, though just now finally made a press back into the Med.
Japan and Russia held balance pretty well. It wasn't until Japan completed the conquest of China that they started to flex up that direction. Could be that a few more artillery will do the trick there, or another couple Russian tanks.
You can see computer Japan didn't go after any of the French or Dutch territory, which was a bit sad, but despite that they still put up a pretty good show on their main warfront. I think the Italian's must have somehow rolled radar, not sure there. I'd imagine a no tech game to start just cause who knows what the computer will get up to otherwise lol.
All told though I was pleased with what I was seeing thus far. I think with the M+1 in effect it will work somewhat better, but even here I'm already liking what I'm seeing.
Here's a quick image from the round when China finally got dropped and Allies made their landing in Europe.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rS9RmzHiwUSX38ca8B34Ep-r_o8xikaO/view?usp=sharing
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Sorry for the delay. I do not like "isSub", "isFactory", "isAA". So I redid the factories, factory_upgrade works as an upgrade.
Cheers...
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