Mega New Elk WIP
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Would like to make a GitHub push. I've moved the player\units factory images, plus other common use images.
Cheers...
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Sounds good to me
I didn't have quite as much time to mull over things as I'd planned, got stuck running errands instead. But tried to do a quick list of things this morning that I need to do still. I saw when looking at the stats that VC disappeared from that column, but maybe was just on mine. When the Git gets updates I can dive in from that one.
Random ideas kicking around last night. First idea was that, for larger regional labels, I might do something separate for that and use the decoration place there. Perhaps just for some of the larger areas to clarify. So for example we might have "FRANCE" or "GERMANY" with a semi transparent font that way in all caps, and displaying over multiple tiles, in some spot where the demands of the starting unit place are less pronounced. Similarly for some of the many territories and island groups that we further sub-divided we could do the same. I'm not sure if it's necessary to go too ham here, but it may help in a few spots. For example a larger label that just says Libya, or India, or Sumatra, or something like a callback to the smaller boards. I would table this for now, since it's not anything critical, just a decorative element. But while I was quickly scanning the board had a few thoughts around the factory capable 2 PU spots.
As I recall, the computer has been much more reluctant to buy factories ever since the tripleA 1.9 thing where they stopped buying them altogether. I think this was resolved for the standard factories (placement capped at production values), but not sure if it was also handled for the G40 factory types, where the production value is decoupled from the max place, ie. factory_minor 3 place factory_major at 10 place.
To me the bread and butter of having these things, would be when one side or the other is trying to stretch their logistics into the next potential theater of operations- to provide a couple 'hurry up' spots at the end of those longer logistics lines. So that when the player finally does arrive, they have a way to establish new production toeholds nearer to the main fronts. This was part of a general idea that if we could make the AI somewhat less transport dependent to push it's fronts, that this would allow the computer to play a somewhat stronger game. I think also for the deep endgame, it can be entertaining, for stuff like invasion USA antics, which would likely never occur in a standard PvP, but which in a solo could provide some definite entertainment value. In a regular game sometimes it's a courtesy to play out a final round, so the opponent can do their big buy with stolen cash, but more often that'd be the point where their losing player bows out. The computer on the other hand never quits, so this is a way for players to sort of reset their production fronts when the game gets to that point (usually not for many rounds.)
I think a good example of this would be South America in an endgame where Axis are ascendant. Perhaps after Moscow or London falls Axis turn their attention further West to start thinking about a swing over towards Brazil, with the idea to sort of inch up closer towards North America. To make this worthwhile I think having a production capable tile there would be good. This would not typically happen in a normal game, since the region is more out of the way and not on the winning line for movement for either side really. Sure USA/Allies might try to build a factory in Brazil, but this is usually a waste of cash for them traditionally, since they have more productive spots already housing factories, and the distance from those to the warfronts is mostly similar to the distance from a newly minted Brazilian factory. By the same token Axis aren't typically going to target because they know the USA will just immediately stomp back in PvP hehe.
The computer is more cautious though, so it will sometimes allow the player to make a big brazen move into the Guianas or Brazil, and for that I like the idea of maybe Rio or Dt. Guiana as a minor capable at 2 PU value. It's not that those spots with minors could replace a logistics line, but more to support an ongoing press that's already coming from backfield production. Also the computer is just very unlikely to do what human player might do in the deep endgame, purchasing factories in all peripheral contested spots and then immediately just spamming them with infantry and sending fighters before the enemy can build up/position the transport or carrier capacity to deal with that. In a PvP probably the opponent would just quit, seeing the futility of fighting on vs a player who's willing to do that. Just the spam and stack. It's the sort of thing that wouldn't make sense until after the center of the board has collapsed, but examples would be the way in which Japan or UK can just stack to the ceiling if they concentrate round to round and become virtually unassailable as island fortresses. Other spots in the standard games can work this way as well. Dutch East Indies being an example, anywhere with a high placement to production ratio. Territories on land at choke points are similar, say India, but it's nowhere so extreme as on single territory (actual islands in A&A terms) where 1 TT is completely contained within 1 sz and also is factory capable. This is in part why G40 has that rule about factories on islands, but then it as violates it's own rule with Japan, so I don't know but it's a thing. Here the entire rationale of the further subdivisions (beyond fun m3 movement stuff) is to help mitigate that issue somewhat. Like the whole idea of having a sea zone boundary strike across a territory, particularly where the larger islands are concerned. Basically because we want to encourage the island hop in this one, even if bypass is sound, battle is fun, so we lean into it by giving all those spots some skin in the game for production values, but then take away with the other hand by making only the 2 PU spots actually viable for Factory build antics.
Short of it is, probably we try to keep to a single 2 PU zone for certain island groups, or where possible to split these across 1 territory or 1 sea zone where possible, just so no one spot in the local region becomes the be all end all. Instead we want the back and forth, or some pick and choose between which productive spots to gun for. Some spots we reduce from 2 to 1, so as not to see too much over stacking. It's an abstraction in terms of relative production scale, to service the gameplay. We already have this going on with coastal Europe where some spaces have their production value held lower at 1 to avoid the ultra stack/factory spam everywhere), and because the M+1 is pretty potent. Factory_minor is relatively inexpensive at 12 PU cost, at least for the nations that collect heavy, and movement in a turn based game is key, so I think there is more incentive here than in vanilla to be buying minor factories. Especially with mech/tank operating at the M3 distance from such a spot, they become very powerful pockets wherever a minor factory can be supported. So probably need to be careful where we double up, or allow a multi factory build strategy that can support a much larger push of HPs into a concentrated zone (say vs India or like Japan/UK home waters) as would be the case traditionally from the Dutch East Indies. So like where USA is gunning to take those over because it is more productive (more placement capable under the vanilla factories.) This sorta distorts the playpattern where Japan and USA are constantly trading the Dutch East Indies instead of the spots in the central Pacific where the fighting took place historically. So here again, the whole idea of production is abstracted based more on the place needs to keep a balance going between sides. For example USA takes out Truk, but then Japan has a fallback position. If either player starts buying factories, the move is typically to respond in kind and mimic, or else break the opposite direction try to take the factory over, use the current HP advantage in the press (since it takes a round and opponent has to telegraph the factory buy in advance) the idea being to use regular purchasing and stronger logistics to seize the newly bought factory and then use it against the dude who bought. That's the double edged sword on the factory that can't be destroyed, and the inherent risk to buying the new ones.
Anyhow thinking about that I was considering maybe we might reduce a few spots from 2 to 1 or raise from 1 to 2, just based on how the computer/player might push. Sorta like the Bombay thing, and then trying to have a more protected contested East Africa, since we know both sides tend to end up there either to hold or pressure Suez/Africa fronts. Overall feels pretty good though. I think it's mostly on the margins just to make sure everyone has sufficient hitpoints/placement spots around the board for the hotspots where we want the action to sorta coalesce around those pockets.
Should be fun! It's nice to see the clean read coming to fruition. Looks pretty solid to me
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version 1.37 is ready (Thank you @beelee)
The Mogadishu/Somaliland and Bombay-Ceylon/Madras change have been made.
Cheers...
P.S Just notice that there is a factory_upgrade in New York for the Americans. It should replace itself at the end of the Americans first turn, and will be replace hopefully in the next xml update.
Cheers...
P.P.S Forgot the map.yml which has now been updated.
Sorry
Cheers...
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
I saw when looking at the stats that VC disappeared from that column, but maybe was just on mine.
Nope, sorry, that was on me. When I wanted to look at the capitals I turned off VC for those cities. To retrieve that column would mean to turn on VC's for the capitals which would have those stars covering (or almost covering) the capital symbol.
What should ever I do... Hide the stars! He He He He He!
UHD WIP 1940-45 1.37.1.zip
New York changed to factory_major
capitals are now VCs again
map.yml (in case you need this)
vc.txt with the hidden starsCheers...
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@wc_sumpton Hehe I just got home from pin balling around and fired it up. Looks great! Excellent work
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UHD I centered the PU above the name like I did here
now it's off centered.
Do we just wanna roll with as is or should I change it again ?
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@beelee said in Mega New Elk WIP:
Do we just wanna roll with as is or should I change it again ?
Sure, knock yourself out.
Cheers...
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yea I'm on it
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So, what I've been doing is running centers placement while look at the loaded map (mostly with units turned off). If the name looks off on the map, I'll adjust it location in centers. After I done maybe ten locations, I'll save centers, then copy the centers.txt over name_place.txt, then reload the map (because you are name placements, you don't have to reselect the map, just reload).
Then I'll go back and work on PUs. But really, I think just working on the position of the names should be done first.(Or we could leave well enough alone until @Black_Elk starts yelling and making faces!)
All in good fun!
Cheers...
P.S By the way, are there going to be any territory effects add?
Cheers...
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Hehe that was like me at the post office earlier today, just lines out the door
I think we can press on get all these names knocked out, later can revisit any edge cases or substitutions just so its not reduplicated efforts. Long as it's basically blocked in and not clipping into the abyss for now I think we're good.
I hadn't given much thought to territory effects yet. For the most part I figured we keep it as close to the global basics as we can get away with for whatever default thing, then other stuff to option on down the line if desired. I think the Land Base rail factory M+1 thing is pretty solid, kinda the opening pitch there to see if it catches. I think that's a fair bit to chew on by itself for a more simplified game on the jumbo, but there is also parity with what the Naval Base and Air Bases are doing operating at the M+1 in the standard, so I feel like it's a fairly easy thing to extend that concept to the ground units. Hopefully at any rate like a grab and go.
For adjustments I think mainly that would just be in fine tuning the production based on the how the opener is playing out. So say if one power seems a bit light. Maybe Germany would need a boost up to match what's coming at them, so we raise a couple spots in their interior to 2, or perhaps a couple spots in France that they take over on G1. Stuff more on the margins though, since it feels pretty solid right now overall.
I was thinking we might raise Greece to 2 PUs just to give Italy and extra hotspot, and Brits another target. Rio also makes sense to me or perhaps Greenland for an endgame Axis waypoint. I think we could probably say that every territory with a VC is worth 2, and in that way VCs will have a intrinsically higher value, so the player or computer sorta always feels it. Probably only a couple VC spots right now still at the value of 1 but we could just boost em up to see what we're working with. I put that extra Brit VC in Africa on Nigeria, but we could probably switch it to Gabon since that spot already is worth 2, and Brits don't really need more money hehe. Any additional VCs I think would need to go to Axis or at least spots Axis can take over reliably in the first round just for balance by sides. I'm not sure if they'll be needed but I'm sure we could always find another spot to fold into the VC affair if we just need to hit a good split for that.
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Sorry for the delay, was playing with name placement and PUs.
UHD WIP 1940-45 1.37.2.zip
Greece, Rio De Janeiro and Greenland raised to 2PUsPlease check for out-of-placed names, also some of the VC stars may need adjusting.
Cheers...
More visual updates.
UHD WIP 1940-45 1.37.3.zipCheers...
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No xml adjustments
centers, name_place and pu_placeCheers...
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@wc_sumpton Looks good
Here's a zip with the vc.txt I was using
I tried to get most of the stars into the right spots. Only one I had trouble moving was Cairo. For some reason when I added that entry it would either blank or just show at the center there. Wasn't sure how to get that star moving, but maybe was a labelling thing still in progress. I reduplicated it for the capital spots, so shows the star and a capital puck, but I thought that looked ok since it allowed me to move the star and the visualization seemed alright.
You can see here how Cairo is still hanging down pretty low, should be up nearer to the coast.
For the others I think should be good, or at least ball park. Moscow is of course somewhat problematic, this is because of the way the OOB A&A boards always really stretch the distance there and sandwich extra spaces into that part of the board. Classic was already pretty far off in that area, but then each board afterwards used that as the basis for further divisions, so it's all a bit heavy distortion near middle of the board there. Did the best I could on shorter notice, but I think it will always be a bit hard to find a satisfying solution for that one. I thought about just using the eraser to just blank out some of the nearby topography, so it's less distracting in that instance, but it's passing fair for now I think.
To do the all VCs at 2 PU or greater, I think E. Romania, Helsinki, Iwo Jima and Panama would be the last spots still left. I think, unless I missed something when scanning around.
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
Only one I had trouble moving was Cairo.
There was no Cairo listed in the vp file.
UHD WIP 1940-45 1.37.4.zip
E. Romania, Helsinki, Iwo Jima and Panama changed to 2PUs
Cairo added to vc.txtI moved the PUs value closer to the territory name in the other update. I hope that this is not problematic.
Cheers...
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Looks good to me
Nice work!
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I ran a series of HardAI vs itself games, and was pretty pleased with what I was seeing there.
It's a bit hard to compare HardAI vs FastAI in terms of the opening playpattern, since for the most part they are quite similar. Meaning both will tend to target with similar priorities, and they will both edge their attacks. In general they both trade very efficiently by the calc. The computer trades rather less efficiently with it's tanks and mech, or high TUV aircraft and ships, which I think a human is much more likely to preserve. Or similarly where the AI will attack with sufficient fodder to win in airblitz style attack (win by the TUV trade there I mean), but not with 1 ground hitpoint surviving, to capture/block to prevent enemy attacks on the following turn etc. This is sorta the computers main deficiency in my view, it will leave blockers though on the ground, and it non coms very well on the ground with that in mind. On the water rather less so. FastAI is more grab and go esp on amphib, whereas HardAI likes to do that thing where it will float loaded transports to threaten multiple TTs at once, or threaten counter attack. I remember talking to Redrum about that tactic though in the PvP game, where it's often better to just hold position and threaten many attacks, as opposed to committing to one single brawl and telegraphing to the opponent in that way.
They will also edge their defenses and bait defenses. For the most part HardAI and FastAI are very good with bomber fleet screening, and mass air defense positions. This is sorta the deal in the current with Japan vs China/USSR, so China/USSR have high hitpoint but low attack power stacks initially, Japan has a lot of very high value attack units, but with somewhat fewer hitpoints, and the need to sorta suction vacuum a lot of those high power aircraft into the stack defense role in China, so they're not roving as far initially. It's a bit of a balance act there for sure, but basically the idea I like is of China just tying down a very large Japanese army, or a large relative percentage of their TUV, since that's more or less what happened in the war. The contest there sorta hold them at that edge of the logistics limit, or where they can't sprawl as hard, for fear that Allies may move forward on the mainland, and then they need to be in a position to bounce back to deal with it. I think it makes for some nice tension.
North Africa and the Eastern Front both seem to be holding up pretty well. I imagine the human could be somewhat more effective since they have options to expand production right now via round to round purchases, but the HardAI uses what it has pretty well.
For the unit analogy, I think in the OG games you have a situation where you can sorta suspend disbelief and maybe imagine a scale reflected in the fleet composition that somehow matches. Say Japan has like 18 carriers or whatever. Maybe USA has 28 (if we just count the fleet carriers) otherwise it's probably like 100+. But then elsewhere of course Germany and Italy had no Carriers, so for that unit, I think one just has to abstract them into the game unit they are, and the role they serve for gameplay. Imagine it as a battleship or whatever I suppose hehe. Strategic bombers are similar in the way they are used. To me I often imagine that they represent something more abstract.
But anyway, I think in general the idea here is to have a map which mimics global in terms of the ruleset and combat interaction, as a simplistic way of teaching how to also play the more regular game at scale with these sorts of stacks or these sorta of numbers. Where in G40 these sorts of confrontations at this scale may occur in the deep endgame, here it's more like every other battle is at that scale, so just sorta getting used to the higher number and stack contests, but with a very similar flavor. So it remains sorta applicable in that way, to reinforce the the standard play. As an example, I think this board would be a good one to train for air umbrellas using bombers, and where every faction can dark skies to some extent, or try to crack the enigma code on the water when it's like sub stacks vs where air can reach. Should be pretty fun I think
Anyhow quick screen of what HardAI was getting up to. The big breakouts tend to start about round 5 on, and start to sorta heat up from there into the big exchange.
Here we are tapping in on Japan's turn2025-3-21-UHD-WIP-1940-45_J5.tsvg
And then here at round 8, when computer Allies started a big push in the Med, and an overland crash with KJF vibes hehe
2025-3-21-UHD-WIP-1940-45_J8.tsvg
Pretty amusing to watch how it will position vs itself. I think right now the only faction that's a bit out of sync is perhaps Anzac, since they do more saving of cash round to round, their production placement might be a slightly be low for their income per turn. They may need another Factory_Minor in Melbourne, or just a Major at Sydney, so they're not too hamstrung. France is similar, very low production relative to income, though Anzac collects somewhat heavier, so prob why there income kept climbing hehe. Anyhow, felt pretty cool. Good times!
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
I ran a series of HardAI vs itself games, and was pretty pleased with what I was seeing there.
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
I think right now the only faction that's a bit out of sync is perhaps Anzac, since they do more saving of cash round to round, their production placement might be a slightly be low for their income per turn. They may need another Factory_Minor in Melbourne, or just a Major at Sydney, so they're not too hamstrung.
ANZAC has a factory_minor at Christchurch and Sydney Canberra with a maximum of 6 production per turn. Making Sydney Canberra a factory_major would increase their production to 13. This, I think, would serve them better. A new factory_minor at Melbourne (Pt. Moresby or Guadalcanal would be better by spreading their production) would only increase their production to 9, which I think would still be constructive. I do think doing both could also be a though.
Cheers...
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@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:
France is similar, very low production relative to income
The French start with plenty of production. It's just easy for Germany and/or Italy to knock them off, at which point they are given a free factory_minor. Maybe they are collecting/saving to much. Maybe, because they have no Capital, their leftover income could be removed/reduced.
Cheers...
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