Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5

[redrum]

Looking over the changes as a whole from a balance stand point, it probably favors Allies a bit.

Most likely the best strategy would be to primarily use the US to send a fleet to capture West Africa ASAP (probably around turn 3) and just having the UK in Africa send a few units to contain the other German units and create a pincer. This allows the Allies to pick up all the Vichy production in West Africa, the free land units, and the Vichy Dakar navy and really only changes that the US will need to build a bit more of a fleet in the Atlantic (so less Pacific pressure). After West Africa is secured, I'd probably just ignore North Africa as I don't want to take a gamble that the Vichy Fleet at Toulon survives or have to pay to try and sink them. So the UK would essentially play almost the same way they tend to play today and focus on Egypt and then the US can shift focus to the Pacific.

[Shonn]

I pointed that out already - saying that either Germany gets offensive units there too to require attention or the sector can be mopped up anytime by Allies.
Germany really lacks the means to invest in the sector unless they really want to pay a hefty cost elsewhere.
So as it is now it's pratically a 1 turn affair for USA to go to Azores, and by turn2 or turn3 they land in West Afrika, get the Vichy Dakar fleet as Allied (hefty bonus) and if the minor allies of UK want can skip the scrapping as they neglect the mediterranean alltogether and UK keeps pinning Cairo.

What Red said it's even worse though, Vichy loses flexibility due to the loss of N.Afrika that mandates 1 resource instead of a choice, and ultimately it's a neat Allied gain. Not minor - after I thought on his words.

That in a map that from my perspective is already heavily swinging to Allied favor.

[redrum]

@shonn So the Axis do get a few benefits from how the proposed changes currently sit which I don't think quite balance out the Allied benefits but is the reason I feel it isn't a huge swing.

Axis Benefits

• Vichy starts with -2 PU but gets free material (slightly less flexibility but definitely more value as France needs materials)
• Vichy fleet at Toulon provides protection against allied landings in South France and Northern Italy
• Vichy fleet at Toulon trigger discourages the Allies from attacking North Africa so Axis shouldn't need to worry about defending it as much

[Shonn]

Allies will get more PUs (Slightly) from West Afrika - as it is beefed up.
Allies gain 1 BB and 1 DD for free once West Afrika is freed plus X infantries around that zone, which by far will outweight any losses they suffer against 3 INFs (Can't see Germany easily affording planes there)

Vichy fleets defends there, certainly - but Allies can simply do, as you pointed out - their regular Norway / North France tantrum there and simply disregard that change.

[Hepps]

Ok so after some further consideration and some valuable input from youz people, I have changed and adapted my vision for Africa and the Vichy Regime.

These are not minor changes to the vision but represent a dramatic departure from the original design. Many of the components of the preceding design remain but have been altered or changed.

1. All the established PU changes remain the same... Morocco +1 PU (2 total), Tunisia +1 PU (2 total), West Africa +1 PU (2 total), Nigeria +1 PU (2 total)

2. The game starting German Protectorates are reduced to Morocco and Algeria. As long as both Protectorates remain, Germany will receive a free Material in Vichy France every turn.

3. If either Protectorate is liberated by an Allied power the following will happen...

A) The free Materials will be lost for the remainder of the game.

B ) All Vichy territories on the Mediterranean (Vichy France, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Southwestern Algeria, Southern Algeria) that remain under Axis control will become German Occupation Zones. All PU generated in these territories will be collected by Germany.

D) All Production Facilities excluding Barracks will become German.

E) Germany will now be prompted to pay 1 PU per vessel to attempt to prevent the scuttling of the Vichy fleet at Toulon. Germany will have a 2/12 chance for each PU invested to stop the scuttle attempt. Surviving units join the Kriegsmarine.

I think these adaptations will make it a new and challenging prospect for both sides.

[Hepps]

1. Sub and Destroyer mechanics all done.

2. Vichy fleet all created.

Now I just need the conditions and triggers to make it all work.

If anyone wants to help with this... I'd be more than willing to accept help. As conditions and trigger are not my forte.

[General_Zod]

@hepps I can help you out in exchange for some future beautification favors on my project.

[prastle]

@general_zod OOH the trade wars start

[General_Zod]

@hepps A couple clarifications for me required.

1. If Algeria (as a German Protectorate only) is taken by allies instead of Morocco, (not listed) I assume the Germans still gain the remaining 5 Vichy med territories (German Protectorates change into German Occupations). Correct?

2. In this version allies essentially auto scuttle anything in Toulon fleet that Germans (trigger) can't save/capture. Meaning no other mechanisms?

3. Desired, exact timing in sequence? ie: prompt, unit changes, scuttles, territory changes

4. Do German Protectorates get any free infantry like Allied Protectorates (exiled?) do, if liberated? Just ask because this would be a consistent mechanism with the existing mechanism.

5. Differences of German Protectorate, German Occupation and German Owned behaviors if any?

6. Free Vichy material behavior?

7. Does Vichy barracks get removed on German Occupation?

8. Fate of Corsica?

[Hepps]

@general_zod said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:

@hepps A couple clarifications for me required.

1. If Algeria (as a German Protectorate only) is taken by allies instead of Morocco, (not listed) I assume the Germans still gain the remaining 5 Vichy med territories (German Protectorates change into German Occupations). Correct?

Both are listed as requirements. The Liberation of either terr. produces the same result.

2. In this version allies essentially auto scuttle anything in Toulon fleet that Germans (trigger) can't save/capture. Meaning no other mechanisms?

No. The scuttling happens when either Protectorate is liberated. The Germans have to invest 1 PU per unit (7 Vichy units) to try and prevent the scuttle attempt.

3. Desired, exact timing in sequence?

Well since either USA or Britain (I guess Russia as well, but really.... not really) can liberate. So ideally the Vichy fleet thing would be immediately following each Allied combat move.

[redrum]

@hepps Would it be better to have the scuttle event during beginning or end of Germany's turn since they are now the one making a decision? This also prevents UK taking it then USA killing the remaining units.

[General_Zod]

@hepps said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:

@general_zod said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:

@hepps A couple clarifications for me required.

1. If Algeria (as a German Protectorate only) is taken by allies instead of Morocco, (not listed) I assume the Germans still gain the remaining 5 Vichy med territories (German Protectorates change into German Occupations). Correct?

Both are listed as requirements. The Liberation of either terr. produces the same result.

I meant in the list of what get liberated, but understood.

2. In this version allies essentially auto scuttle anything in Toulon fleet that Germans (trigger) can't save/capture. Meaning no other mechanisms?

No. The scuttling happens when either Protectorate is liberated. The Germans have to invest 1 PU per unit (7 Vichy units) to try and prevent the scuttle attempt.>

Referring to after the liberation takes place, but understood.

3. Desired, exact timing in sequence?

Well since either USA or Britain (I guess Russia as well, but really.... not really) can liberate. So ideally the Vichy fleet thing would be immediately following each Allied combat move.

Yeah I agree that the German turn is ideal as @redrum pointed out.

[Hepps]

Sure. I guess that's fair. I think it felt more natural to me for it to happen immediately.

But at the start of the next German turn would be good.

[Shonn]

Armour & Tactical Bombers

I feel that armour is less used an amount, now that the AT got beefed up with its cyclical fire.
I suggest that armour gets +1 attack as well with the Improved Armour tech.

Tactical Bombers are rarely seen beyond the starting allotment. In general a fighter (either type) is more versatile in attack and defence. Even more so as Fighters get the improved range rather easily (same branch) while TACs need strategic technology as prerequisite, so ultimately a Fighter has matching attack of a Tac or differs of 1 (and it's not something you can easily mass to cut a large difference), and Tac helps tanks which are not overly used as of now.
So I feel Tactical Bombers too should get some beef in a way or another.

[Hepps]

@shonn I have felt for a while now that the key lies in reducing the effectiveness of fighters rather than adding more power else where.

[Shonn]

That too can work tbh - but it means some reworking.
Fighters having some AA against other planes when both defending and attacking and less regular attack / defence. (and Naval Fighters too or they'll end up being used as fighters on land too)
That should mirror some 'air battles' too that go each round on.

[Hepps]

@shonn Separate air battles are not slated for TWW. My work on TWW is winding down. Completely separate air battles will be included in GD only.

All the work I am doing for TWW is really just as a way of doing proof of concept for many of my idea's for GD.

[Shonn]

I did not meant 'separate air battle' which I think it's a wrong concept by how TripleA works.
What I mean is to give 'AA fire' (like AA, Anti Tank, etc) to fighters / naval fighters against other planes.
It is not a separate battle - but each round fighter shoot at other planes (like each round an AA shoots specifically to planes, and AT to tanks).

I don't think it will be massive work that in terms of coding.

[redrum]

@shonn Generally, I think tanks and tacts are fairly balanced and agree with @Hepps that fighters/n.fighters are overpowered. If fighters/n.fighters were nerfed a bit then tanks/tacts become a more needed source of attack power. In regards to AT guns, if anything they are underpowered (true before and after the changes to shoot every round). I don't believe I've ever built an AT gun in any of the 10-15 TWW games I've played and if I see my opponent building a significant number of them then I know I've already won. Glad to play against anyone that wants to try some AT gun strategy to prove me wrong.

[Shonn]

They're built if you produce armour.
If you do not produce armour (which is easily countered by having many cheaper AT in the mix of forces) then no, no one plays an AT strategy.