Crazy Europe: House of Habsburg

Cernel

Edit: You can have bigger non combat movement 2 ways. Either by triggering higher values in non combat, then triggering back lower in combat move, or, without triggers, by the units giving bonus movement to themselves and having the step that gives this movement during non combat move (default is during combat move). If you go with the first solution, the steps I mentioned are irrelevant (you don't need steps, just triggers). Was just talking about my experiences in the past, not specifically what you are doing here.

wc_sumpton

@cernel
I see said the blind man.

Cheers...

Cernel

@wc_sumpton Edited my previous post to clarify. It was about my experiences in doing higher non combat movement, not about how you are specifically doing it here. Also, I've not tested again in more than 1 year, so these things may or may not still be true.

CrazyG

@wc_sumpton
Not intentional, I'm at the gym, will fix when I'm back.

@Cernel
Step properties are very buggy in my experience. I attempted to use them, but the step property to make units not receive bonus movement in combat move phase never did anything. I recall them working correctly a long time ago, but I've tried to minimize my use of this feature because it often led to hair pulling frustration (PoS 2 has very limited information about them).

This map has to trigger them on and off anyways because different nations can have different movement speeds. I could do the TWW thing but this way seemed easier (though I could be wrong about that)

wc_sumpton

@cernel
I understand what you are say. I just miss read it the first time. In HoH the bonus movement is granted by a tech, so whichever route that is taken 'change the movement value' or 'givesMovement' we still need the trigger to grant to only those that have the Tech before NCM and remove it prior the next players CM. So only the NCM step need to be set to true if we use 'givesMovement' because the trigger removes the bonus.

I understand that this is different then what you are saying, I just misread you post the first time.

Cheers...

Cernel

@crazyg So, it has been some time, but steps always worked perfectly fine for me (beside the limiting behaviour to have 1 single step for giving and resetting the bonus movement, that anyway it is intended and documented). I'm worried about what you say, so I'll have to test it, to see if they got bugged off recently (if so, I hope the developers will fix).

Cernel

If one would want to be a purist, keeping triggering values endlessly in the various phases is sort of a hack. The non-hacky way to do this (if it even works, since I've not tried in a long time) would be to have all players units different (pikemen_France, pikemen_Habsburg…), having a step that disables bonus movement during all combat move phases and a step that enables bonus movement during all non combat movement phases; then, the tech would trigger the bonus movement self given on the unit only once. As I said, the only limit of a non combat bonus system (if it still works) is that the reset bonus is the step that gives it, so you need to alternate turns between alliances, because if you have two allies going one after the other, having the same kind of units, then, the second one will have the bonus during combat movement (this doesn't really make sense, but it is how it works; it would be better if the bonus are reset when the normal movement is) but, now that I think about it, in this case, giving different units (pikemen_France, pikemen_Habsburg…) already solves this issue; so the system I just described should actually work fully.

Edited a thing I overlooked.

CrazyG

@cernel
Yes that would work, it was discussed earlier. This seemed like the easier path though. Especially since I might want to add more techs and things like support attachments can get really complex when all 8 nations have different units.

You mentioned you played a few games, could I pick your brain about unit balance and starting positions?

Updated 1 missing "France". Let me know if you find other problems.

Hepps

@crazyg To be honest @CrazyG setting up the individual national units now would solve a lot of your issues and its far easier than you think.

Just create a separate file in note pad++

Copy the unit list you have in the XML to a blank file. then add "France_" to the beginning of each unit. Do the same for the 5 units you have.

Then copy that to a new blank file.... and use "replace all" for all instances of France with Habsburg. You since you can replace ALL in one click it takes about 2 minutes to create everything for everyone. Rinse and repeat for the other nations. Then you just paste the bundle into the appropriate spot in the XML.

Then you just do the same thing for all your conditions and triggers for all your different nations. Remember... you only have to create the full set for 1 nation.... then you copy it to notepad++ and repeat the nation name replace all.

It solves so many issues and allows you so much more flexibility down the road if and when you want to add new features.

Cernel

@crazyg The starting positions work. Also I noticed now Sweden goes first; that's a huge change, as before Sweden was doomed to fall easily. Balance, no point talking, game has changed a lot.
I won as Russia and won as Poland, so I don't really know who should be winning there.
The only problems I have with the starting stuff are of historical nature, and some I've already said.
I hate to have to see a St.Petersburg where there was a wasteland with a couple fortresses and was Russian anyways, not Swedish.
The Rhodes that is Italian is a minor matter, as it is recent, but then the Cyclades should be Italian, and mostly it seems too much to have a city in there, due to how rare cities are, and Crete and Cyprus were both much more populous than Rhodes.
Constantinople, at this time, was way bigger than any other cities. So it should be 15 (looking at the other cities around).
Also I think it would be so cooler if the map would have England and Scotland (England part of Habsburg and Scotland part of Franco). Leaving Britain neutral means that either it is out of the game or it is very easily farmable, that's really bad on historicity.
I see you went back not having a specific starting year. I think game sounds more neat if it refers to a specific year, even if you are not going to have it 100% on it.
So, long way to say that, as long as gameplay goes, the game seems sound to me, but I would wish you don't sacrifice historicity so much on the main things.

Cernel

@crazyg On unit balance, maybe there is not so much complementarity, due to the fact that costs are relatively very close, for an Axis & Allies style game. So I think it would be good making knights stronger and costing 24. Historically, however, this was the nadir of the cavalry and the time of the dominance of the infantry, as the massive formations of pikemen and musketeers were almost cavalry proof (tho the French couldn't possibly stop being horse lovers).

CrazyG

@hepps
I think all issues are solved and I spent all that time trying to solve a non-issue (not being able to move twice is completely undocumented, I've played for more than a decade and I wasn't aware of it.

@Cernel
Lets start with something which has been said more than a few time: gameplay comes first. I'm not intentionally sacrificing any historical accuracy either, the fact that saint petersburg didn't exist in the 16th century isn't common knowledge. And a quick google search revealed that there were important fortresses there, so I don't see what the issue is. I'm posted my source for the borders, Sweden controlled the area at the time.

Venice is the most valuable city because its Venice (it doesn't matter if Constaninople was bigger in population, Venice is wealthy).

I don't want neutral farming to be too strong. Is it actually a good idea to farm England though? You mentioned that France is dieing every game, could it be because they are invading England? You have to commit a ton of resources and you need 2 or 3 territories just to pay the maintenance for the units you send. I would much rather pressure Barcelona and try to spread the Habsburgs thin while the Ottomans go hard in Europe.

Cernel

@crazyg I wouldn't go for Britain; so for me now that part of the map is not part of the game, but I cannot say it for certain. Time will tell if Habsburg should go kill France first or not, I guess; only way is playing either ways, and see what seems working the best. If England and Scotland are not part of the game, it would be better to make them impassable, as it doesn't make sense that you can attack part of them and the rest doesn't fight back (like Spain or Turkey in NWO).

Cernel

@cernel Tho having a fleet in 56 is a serious annoyance for Habsburg, since you can drop in a bunch of territories in the Netherlands, that need to be defended, and, while waiting, you can use it to farm some. Still, doubt it's worth it, but not sure.

CrazyG

Pushed a small update

A few connections added
Some neutral units added
Venice controls the Cyclades

I want feedback on where to place the Italian city in the Eastern Mediteranean.

The issue with Crete is its very hard to defend because its two spaces from the Ottoman city in Athens, which is two spaces from the Ottoman capital. Just to hold it on turn 2, Venice needs to build a castle there. I can add some units, but all that does is allow to survive till round 4 or 5 instead of round 2.

You cannot defend it using navy for a very long time.

Rhodes is a lot less flexible for Venice, but much harder to take for the Ottomans.

Cyprus is too far away for Venice's home fleet to actually help.

wc_sumpton

@CrazyG
I wonder if @Hepps would allow you to borrow his dice folder. TWW uses a 12-sided dice, and those in TWW look nice.

Cheers...

Cernel

@crazyg So, historically Crete (better named as "Candy" at this timeline and if you are going to use English names) was the main dependency of Venice, tho the hulls and the high tech stuff would be produced in Venice, and, then, armed in Crete (it would make more sense if ships are produced in 2 turns, but the hulls should stay in land; maybe using that thing of the air unit with carrier cost 0).
So, historically, I would say 1 city able to produce 1 unit in Crete.
Don't really know about Cyprus, tho I think Crete and Cyprus would have about the same population.
For gameplay, the best may be having both a city in Candy and a city in Cyprus, both at production 1, and 1 or 2 villages in Rhodes, plus a castle in each of Rhodes, Crete and Cyprus.

For castles, I don't know. At this time there were fortifications pretty much everywhere, and, in your format, in which castles can only be 1 or 0 per territory, I've not really a clue what were the x% territories more castle intensive. Side note, with the current values, I think castles will be almost never bought, and, at most, only in very major chockepoints. The only cases I see are castles in France 46 and France 36, and even that I'm not sure it would be smart.

Hepps

Test from last night...

Missing connections

Russia 02 <-> Russia 17
SZ 127<-> SZ 134
Turkey 36 <->Turkey 40
SZ 150 <-> Albania 01
Turkey 58 <-> ALL surrounding Terr.
Turkey 57 <-> All surrounding Terr.
Turkey 35 <-> Turkey 32

Connections needing to be removed

SZ 98 <-> Spain 35
SZ 186 <-> Greece 02
Turkey 35 <-> Turkey 39
SZ 82 <-> SZ 83

Cernel

Also, I think in this map might be good having 1 (and only 1) territory effect: Mountains, given to about 10% of territories in the map (only those with major mountains). But this would need to be played and, eventually, reverted, if it wouldn't feel fun to deal with (I'm always very cautious suggesting adding territory effects, as I'm not a big fan of such things, but this map might use some mountains).

CrazyG

@cernel
Castles are really powerful. A castle with 2 pikemen inside is very difficult to take. The cheapest force I found to reliably take it would be 3 pikemen and 2 cannons, which would need 5 navies to transport. Would you really spend all those resources taking Crete, Rhodes, and Cyprus?

I see France building a castle in its southern city quite often (I think the Habsburgs can force France to build one there turn two if France does the opening you did in our game). They are weak in the Habsburg-Ottoman region because both sides have so many cannons, but I think that is fine. Its fine if they aren't built often, the starting castles affect the game a lot.