AA revised - possible upgrades

[General_Zod]

Just a reminder I do have a new map for revised. I wish I had it ready for your tournament.

https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/423/wwii-revised-facelift

Suggestions welcome. Also proofing my territories borders for accuracy of connections is welcome.

[LouisXIVXIV]

@deltium said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

• we were all quite spoiled at GTO with an interface there that was quite stable and robust, along with a deep community of players. LouisXIVXIV was clearly one of the very best Revised players, and he is most certainly welcome at TripleA !

Thanks Deltium!! I'll play in tourney 13 - are all the tourneys low luck? Also, happy to play you in a pbem.

@prastle I understand - it's all good. Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I am not a programmer. Though I do want to add one more item (for the big list or whatever)

6. During bombing raids when many bombers are present the total ipc damage is capped at the territory value -- instead the total damage PER die should be capped at the territory value. So, for example, 100 bmrs would reduce a nation's ipc reserve to 0.

Thanks to all the admins for all the feedback.

[redrum]

@louisxivxiv I believe that is how it already works or should work unless their is a bug. Limitation is per bomber not for total of all bombers.

[Cernel]

@louisxivxiv said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

5. In the lobby there are often many "dead" games, with 0 players "waiting". If those got cleared away it would be helpful.

So, here there are a bunch of things in this topic that probably should fit better each one as its own topic, and I believe the number 2 and 6 are invalid bug reports or something bugged off recently. I just don't understand the point 1, but I'm guessing that's invalid as well, or a very weird bug happening recently.
As @prastle says, it would really help if you can be more specific or upload screenshots when those things happen (for example, I've no idea how to verify your point 1; so I doubt any developers will, either).

On point 5:

On this matter, since bots are currently discussed upon other reasons, if it would be easy to do, I think it would be good if the bot would instantly go back having no "Name" (meaning no selected game; like when they are initially created) as soon as 0 Players are inside.
I think the main benefits would be:

• Easy to glance the actual games and the free bots.
• Easy to have an idea of the popular games and what is actually getting played or waited for.

Minor matter, of course, but I think that would clear things up a bit, as per this request.

[Cernel]

Actually, probably better being only a display thing for the lobby (not displaying the game name in lobby if 0 people inside), as keeping it loaded is important for people that disconnect, not to lose their savegames (but they would lose it anyways if someone else go in the bot and load it up).

[prastle]

@cernel I believe 2 is due to the recent changes they made to accommodate @Panther rules clarification.

[Cernel]

@louisxivxiv said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

1. Bombardment should not be able to target air units by the original rules, but it can in game.

Oh, actually, I understand point 1 now. You are talking about naval bombardment.

I just verified it, and number 1 is a valid bug report.

Naval bombardment, in v2 (Revised) not LHTR should be able to hit land units only.

On the other hand, unless I'm missing something, naval bombardment can hit any units in the territory in v1 (Classic) as well as LHTR and following rulesets (v3 etc.).

So this limit (not supported, thus bug) of naval bombardment being able to hit only land units exists only for v2 (Revised), except LHTR, and no other rulesets (v1, v3, etc.).

If anyone can confirm, I think this should be opened in GitHub. Weird that in all these years I never saw anyone bringing up this point (I don't play Revised).

[prastle]

@cernel they never supported that because it would affect all maps for only one maps ruling would be my guess.

[simon33]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I came here from the Feature Request list and felt the need to correct point 2. In fact, this is correct the way that it is, to change it back would be a bug.

Rule, p21, under "Phase 5, Noncombat move":
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or participate
in combat during your turn."

[ubernaut]

@simon33 the term "or" seems somewhat ambiguous to me i would assume you'd have to move in order to "participate in combat" but as far as i know that has always been the rule you can move in CM or NCM but not both except for air units completing their moves.

[simon33]

Seems clear to me. If they have done either they can't move in NCM.

Although it isn't true that they have to move to conduct combat. Units can be placed in hostile sea zones and then the enemy needs to move if they want to avoid combat. And vice versa. Also submarines can submerge which leaves the sea zone hostile to both sides if that side loses the battle.

[Cernel]

@simon33 said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

Seems clear to me. If they have done either they can't move in NCM.

@ubernaut is right: this phrase is logically wrong, or at least open to multiple interpretations, if the meaning is what you said (and you are correct it is).

Rule, p21, under "Phase 5, Noncombat move":
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or participate
in combat during your turn."

That is the exactly same thing as saying:

Rule, p21, under "Phase 5, Noncombat move":
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or did not participate
in combat during your turn."

If you say "you can move any of this that didn't do this or that", what you logically mean is that the requisite for moving is that you didn't make at least one of those two things, as I believe the normal meaning of the English "or" is the same as the ancient Latin "vel".

So, logically, what that phrase means is that you cannot move during non combat move only if you both moved and participated in combat, while you can move if you did only one of those two things, or neither.

How that rule should have been written, as I understand English, is either:

"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase nor participate
in combat during your turn."

or

"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase and didn't participate
in combat during your turn."

Anyways @ubernaut this is the itended meaning of that (I agree badly worded) rule.

Of course, all air units are exception to this rule and cargo that was already loaded at start turn doesn't count as having moved as long as it didn't offload or attempted to, even if the transport itself moved or offloaded (and, only in Revised OOB, offloading during CM doesn't bar from doing it during NCM too, but only restricts you to the same territory).

Additionally, Revised has also the special rule that ships that took part in a victorious sea battle can either offload or load, during NCM, but not both (so such a cargo may be loaded during CM and offloaded during NCM).

[simon33]

I guess it's not grammatically perfect but I don't find it confusing. Context clarifies sufficiently for me.

[ubernaut]

@Cernel @simon33 also i don't think you are allowed to move transports in your combat move unless they are participating in an amphibious assault, which is also by definition participating in combat. Maybe they just wanted to re-iterate.

Curious if @Panther has anything to say about this.

[Cernel]

@ubernaut In all Classics and Reviseds, you can move your transports in CM if you are sending them into a sea zone with enemy units. And, of course, from Revised you can move them also to get away from such a sea zone.

[Panther]

@ubernaut In Revised-OOB this is "special" about transports (compared to later editions):

• Transports cost 8 IPCs and defend on a 1.
• Transports may be chosen as casualties at any time.
• Transports fight like any other unit, though they have no attack value.
• The presence of enemy transports alone makes a sea zone hostile.
• Transports cannot load or unload in a sea zone containing only unsubmerged enemy subs and/or transports.
• Transports can load after combat if they don’t unload.
• Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.

[Cernel]

@Panther said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

@ubernaut In Revised-OOB this is "special" about transports (compared to later editions):

• Transports cost 8 IPCs and defend on a 1.
• Transports may be chosen as casualties at any time.
• Transports fight like any other unit, though they have no attack value.
• The presence of enemy transports alone makes a sea zone hostile.
• Transports cannot load or unload in a sea zone containing only unsubmerged enemy subs and/or transports.
• Transports can load after combat if they don’t unload.
• Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.

I suggest you clarify that is ignoring all the implications of using National Advantages (not much of a need, since TripleA doesn't support this option).

I believe you missed two points, that are actually quite closely related with one another. As I said, the other things that Revised OOB transports can do are:

• Transports can load units if they are going to take part in a battle, with no requirement to offload them on the same phase (not in Revised LHTR).
• Transports can (non combat) offload after a victorious battle, no matter if the cargo was loaded on that same turn or already on board (not in Revised LHTR).

This is also particularly relevant with respect to what you can do in the case of the transports starting in a hostile sea zone (previous enemy placement), as, if you want to use such transports to move units between two friendly territories, in Revised OOB you can move the transports to an adjacent friendly sea zone during Combat Move, load the transports during Combat Move, go back to the previous sea zone during Combat Move (or to any hostile sea zones), make battle with those transports (keeping all cargo on board), then offload whatever you have in them, during Non Combat Move (into any adjacent friendly territories, comprising newly conquered ones).

On the other hand, I believe that, for example, in v3+, if you start the turn with 1 battleship and 1 transport is a sea zone with 1 enemy destroyer in it, there is no way that transport can be used to ship units between two friendly territories, on that same turn (as it can only load units for sea borne offensives). @Panther can you confirm this?

Sadly, TripleA handles transport cases very badly, as currently the behaviour (in terms of what the program allows you to do, sometimes allowing you doing things you cannot do, some other times disallowing you doing things you can do) is largely the same across all rulesets, and it is practically a randomish mash-up of the v2 and v3 rulesets, but mostly v2, and, in particular, having absolutely no support of the differences between Classic, Revised OOB and Revised LHTR, about what you can do with transports (there are a few of them, some quite important, but none part of TripleA, unless that happens to be the default for the program as a whole, as far as I know).

[Cernel]

@simon33 said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

Sorry to bump an old thread but I came here from the Feature Request list and felt the need to correct point 2. In fact, this is correct the way that it is, to change it back would be a bug.

Rule, p21, under "Phase 5, Noncombat move":
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or participate
in combat during your turn."

To be clear, while I think the wording is not clear enough on its own, the matter has been abundantly clarified; so, of course, that is right.

@LouisXIVXIV, your points 1 and 2 are actually bug reports, rather than feature requests, and I believe the first one is correct and the second one is wrong.

1. Bombardment should not be able to target air units by the original rules, but it can in game.
2. Transports should be able to move in combat phase and move again in noncombat if they have not unloaded and they have movement left, but they cannot.

So, feel free to open a bug report about the first one in the bug tracker, as per:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/category/58/bug-reports

Also I suggest to clarify if you are referring only to Revised OOB or to Revised as a whole (that in TripleA means whether you are referring to all games of the Revised map or only to the Revised game), since Revised can be either OOB and LHTR (though TripleA calls OOB as just Revised, on a game level (but not on a map level)). For example, your point 1 would be wrong for Revised LHTR, as LHTR adds air units to the eligible casualties of Naval Bombard (it can have some importance if you would rather take a bomber out).

On the other hand, the second point may be reworded as a feature request, adding to Revised a custom (house rule like) setting for being able to split transport movement between Combat and Non Combat Move, so to allow using a transport starting in a hostile sea zone to ship units between friendly territories without having to send it into any naval battles, to do so (am I right guessing this is your user case?).

[Panther]

@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

I suggest you clarify that is ignoring all the implications of using National Advantages (not much of a need, since TripleA doesn't support this option).

Indeed!

@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

I believe you missed two points, that are actually quite closely related with one another. ...

My list was what I was quickly able to collect. Every additional item is welcome of course.

@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

On the other hand, I believe that, for example, in v3+, if you start the turn with 1 battleship and 1 transport is a sea zone with 1 enemy destroyer in it, there is no way that transport can be used to ship units between two friendly territories, on that same turn (as it can only load units for sea borne offensives). @Panther can you confirm this?

Yes, confirmed, as the "Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones"-rules apply. And once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat, they cannot move or participate in the Noncombat Move phase of the turn.

[Cernel]

@Panther said in AA revised - possible upgrades:

• Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.

On this regard, I'm actually not sure if a move like this would be allowed: starting the turn with an empty transport, loading 2 infantries into it, sending the transport into a naval battle and offloading 1 infantry into a sea borne assault, during Combat Move, winning the naval battle and the land battle where the unit was offloaded (this last thing may be granted, in case the territory is empty or having capturable units only), then offloading the other 1 infantry, into the same territory, during Non Combat Move.

?