Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread
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@Cernel I have the file, so I might as well fix it and leave it in. I put a note referencing the new file.
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@Cernel Ok. Yeah, I would potentially leave both the fixed version of GoT that is there now and add in A Song of Ice and Fire if we fix that since they both seem to be reasonable quality maps then. And probably make this thread cover both since they come from the same base map.
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@redrum Ok, well, that was unexpected. I believe the only thing they have in common is using the same original map artwork at this link:
https://www.deviantart.com/astrogator87/art/Map-of-Westeros-Essos-Sothoros-v2-0-310029783
But, aside from that, it would like putting together two otherwise unrelated WW2 maps just because use the same projection and are both about WW2.
So, to avoid confusion, I would rather keep this thread for Game of Thrones only (and maybe any mods using the same original skin), and make another one for any other Game of Thrones map like A Song of Ice and Fire. If you want I can open that myself with a presentation and some screenshots and such. Let me know.Another thing that I always thought is that it would be cool if all maps in the repository have the same starting title for the same scenario and none can exclusively and simply have it.
I mean, having maps called like:
Game of Thrones - Something1
Game of Thrones - Something2
Game of Thrones - Something3
(and none just "Game of Thrones")
or
Middle Earth - Lord of the Rings
Middle Earth - Battle for Arda
(and none just "Middle Earth")
etc.
Tho, I've no knowledge of the setting, so not really an idea about how the current "Game of Thrones" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" should be renamed. Also, I guess the decision of renaming "ASoIaF" to "Games of Thrones" was made by Rolf (the main repository maintainer at the time), and he could have just decided to rename it "A Song of Ice and Fire", instead, which would have been more logical with the original name (in this case, we would have had two maps named exactly the same; except that, then, kor438 would have probably picked some other name, to avoid that). -
Generally speaking (and pointing out that I know almost nothing about it), due to the characteristic of the scenario, I tend to think that a sensible Game of Thrones game can only be played with the aid of the Artificial Intelligence. I think there are two main reasons for this. The first one is that with 9 or more players (the two games we are looking at have 12 and 14 players, actually), it is very unlikely you can get (and finish!) games with all human opponents. A second, and maybe more important, reason is that there are some players that seriously lack strategic options, so I cannot believe anyone would be interested in playing them. For example, what is a human FreeFolk player going to do the whole game against a human Stark player, beside probably endlessy stacking units at the frontline? As per Maquis idea, the only way to solve this second issue without the AI would be assigning multiple powers to each player (akin to Domination 1901), but (akin to Domination 1901) I suppose doing this in a balanced fashion would imply just butchering the setting and the lore beyond recognition.
Needing the AI, in turn, opens the issue that either you make the game a pure all-war FFA, highly damaging the setting, for ruling out the possibilities of any alliances and common defence (that I understand did happen several times in the setting), or you add some politic system, that the AI, at least at its current state, will manage very badly, making the game to a large extent a matter of exploiting the AI politics and hope its randomness will be to your advantage. -
@Cernel I think the best approach would be the heavy use of scripted events like in Greyhawk Wars. Alliances could shift in semi-random ways. You could also have multiple scenarios dealing with the different wars.
It is also worth noting the upkeep costs should be part of a good Game of Thrones type game. The expense of large armies was a factor in the story.
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@RogerCooper said in Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread:
@Cernel I think the best approach would be the heavy use of scripted events like in Greyhawk Wars. Alliances could shift in semi-random ways. You could also have multiple scenarios dealing with the different wars.
That would not solve the issue that I cannot believe anyone would want to play as FreeFolk or NightsWatch, and probably piling up units the whole game. So you would still need some AI for taking over the boring or excessively limited players. Also I doubt a 3 human players thing in Essos can be of interest, as that is really playing on a line that wraps around (a ring), mostly.
It is also worth noting the upkeep costs should be part of a good Game of Thrones type game. The expense of large armies was a factor in the story.
Thanks for the information. Since I know almost nothing about Games of Thrones (I've never read the book or seen the show), I tried hard to abstaing from making a remark there, but, now that you say it, I want to point out that especially the "A Song of Ice and Fire" game really needs some upkeep dynamics to deal with the FreeFolk - NightsWatch - Stark situation north of Westeros, or I guess that is going to become an ever-increasing stack fest. And, as said, I cannot believe you would find 3 human players willingly to play those powers, especially NightWatch; so, assuming 1 power per player, I guess the only solution there is that at least two of those players are AI controlled (and you would play either as Stark or FreeFolk, probably Stark).
TripleA started as a 2 sides game, and moving to more than that, or even to FFA with many players, it is always a challenge as a matter of playability.
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My general thought is that:
- GoT should just stay as an all war FFA. Players can either take multiple nations or just leave many to the AI. Its kind of a simple FFA.
- ASoIaF should either be more like Greyhawk Wars or just be changed to have 2 alliances. This should be a more complex and interesting map.
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@redrum Wouldn't the 2 sides option be just devastating for the setting?:face_without_mouth: For what I understand, Game of Thrones is not at all something like of a Good against Evil World War kind of fantasy, like Lord of the Rings. As I said, if the AI is not wanted or it is preferred to much limit its application, the other option would be the Maquis approach of making 4, 5 or 6 alliances, giving each player 2 or more powers (that would be fixed allied between each other only). However, this too would require a good knowledge of the setting, in order to be done in a consistent way, if that is even possible (no idea, but Maquis asserted it is not, or at least that the alliances he was making were absurd by the books; so I guess this is not a good option either, tho probably not as bad as just 2 alliances, I guess).
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@Cernel I think any static alliance system is probably butchering the setting but I think you kind of have to take the Napoleonic Empires approach of lay out the various wars at a point and time then decide how to string together 2 alliances based on that.
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@redrum said in Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread:
- ASoIaF should either be more like Greyhawk Wars or just be changed to have 2 alliances. This should be a more complex and interesting map.
Minor note, with the name there is also the issue that (also since @RogerCooper is keeping ASoIaF available in the Wiki) if you say ASoIaF as short for "A Song of Ice and Fire" somebody might understand you are talking about the game called ASoIaF, instead, that was the original name of Game of Thrones.
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@redrum I actually believe that the 2 fixed alliances for Napoleonic Empires surely make that game historically absurd with its own setting (and, of course, also the fact that Denmark and Sweden are the same power). Though if you would start in 1812 or later, instead, and make some complex delayed entry politics similar to how politics work in WWII Global, a Napoleonic Empires game might be acceptable as 2 sided. I don't want to start talking about Napoleon in here, but just letting you know I absolutely despise the 2 sides setting for that map, and believe it is absolutely not acceptable from a historicity standpoint.
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@Cernel I know you do but lots of people like the map and its had a decent following in the past. I think in some cases, making the sacrifice from a history/lore standpoint to have a fun/playable game is worth it.
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First post updated with latest info.
I have ASoIaF updated to work with v1.9. I'm making a few small updates to the notes and player colors. I'll look to create a repo and add it to in-game downloads over the next few days.
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@redrum Why being against the concept of a FFA in which each player takes 1 power each and the remaining ones are assigned to the AI?
This is how complex games like "Crusader Kings" work, and it is the only good way to represent most of history, as it is quite rare that you irrevocably reach a condition in which most of the world is definitively committed to a two-sided war, like in World War II (and even in that case, there were still some extraneous dynamics, like the intra-alliance competition for conquering territories yourself, instead of your allies (especially between Communists and Liberal-Democrats), the neutrality between the Soviets and the Japanese, and, of course, the Italian de-fascistization and betrayal).
The current problem is just that the AI is very bad at dealing with FFA politics, but if it works well enough for games like "Crusader Kingds", maybe it can eventually work well enough for TripleA too?Anyways, Greyhawk Wars (at default) is a straight 3 sides game, from start to finish, like Domination 1901. So I guess you mean the game can be, like, 3, 4, 5 or 6 sides, instead? Not sure if you misunderstood what @RogerCooper said. I believe he meant that you can have scripted random events, like the Greyhawk Wars one, that change alliances, not that the random events of that game actually do that (aside from the vanquishing/reviving dynamic that is just for putting a power out of the game and bringing it back). I'm actually not sure what @RogerCooper has in mind, as currently TripleA doesn't allow handing over a power to the control of another player (meaning moving powers from a fixed alliance to another one), so, at most, it would be still a fixed number of players that keep control of a set number of powers that may have their relationships with other powers forced upon them randomly (or you can have a notification telling you to reload the game and hand over this or that power to the player that it is controlling this or that alliance).
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To be clear, my suggestion would be having "A Song of Ice and Fire" officially working like "Feudal Japan", except having some players always assigned to the AI (I believe at least "NightsWatch" and "Others" should fall into this category, not entirely sure if FreeFolk should too).
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@redrum said in Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread:
First post updated with latest info.
I have ASoIaF updated to work with v1.9. I'm making a few small updates to the notes and player colors. I'll look to create a repo and add it to in-game downloads over the next few days.
For the first upload I would suggest no gameplay related updates at all, so that they can all figure in the history of the repository, then.
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Having these two maps in this same thread it is also going to be confusing because the original thread of "Game of Thrones" is called "A Song of Ice and Fire v1.0" (as that was the original map name, shortened to "ASoIaF"), so people will likely think that is rather the original map thread of "A Song of Ice and Fire" (that never had one). Of course, they are linked in the right position, but maybe some people will wonder if you have mixed them up there.
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@redrum said in Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread:
@Cernel It would be more useful to just have a single post that links to all the different GoT maps that you know exist and a brief description of your understanding of them. The last one you linked to "A Song of Ice and Fire" by kor438 seems to have made some significant improvements/changes but isn't listed in TripleA and doesn't appear to have ever been upgraded to 1.9.
Topics about "Game of Thrones" (obtained by searching for "Thrones", then selecting the relevant results):
Current main map thread for "Game of Thrones":
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/950/game-of-thrones-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-official-threadOriginal main map thread for the current "Game of Thrones" (formerly called "ASoIaF") map in the repository (Old TripleA developer forum):
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/A-Song-of-Ice-and-Fire-v1-0-td7581892.htmlOther "Game of Thrones" threads in the current TripleA forum:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/478/game-of-thrones-bugs
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/1302/did-anybody-fix-that-bug-on-the-game-of-thrones-map
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/1497/fixed-game-of-thrones-map-bugOther "Game of Thrones" threads in the old TripleA developer forum, referring to this "Game of Thrones" map or variants of it:
Game of Thrones Maquis
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Game-of-Thrones-Maquis-td7583763.html
The Game of Thrones map bug
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/The-Game-of-Thrones-map-bug-td7587435.htmlOther "Game of Thrones" threads in the old TripleA developer forum, referring to no particular maps or to other maps (but not always sure if the map is not the same or related):
Westeros Map? Game of Thrones..
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Westeros-Map-Game-of-Thrones-td6630031.html
Westeros Map/Mod announced!
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Westeros-Map-Mod-announced-td7450212.html
GAME OF THRONES MODDING/MAPPING STAFF ANNOUNCED!
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/GAME-OF-THRONES-MODDING-MAPPING-STAFF-ANNOUNCED-td7579721.html
GAME OF THRONES - staff NEWS!
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/GAME-OF-THRONES-staff-NEWS-td7579888.html
A Mod of Ice and Fire
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/A-Mod-of-Ice-and-Fire-td7584544.html"Game of Thrones" mentions in the current project tracker:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/3573
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/3160"Game of Thrones" mentions in the old project tracker:
https://sourceforge.net/p/triplea/bugs/1082/List of reported issues at the linked threads, for the "Game of Thrones" map:
- Maybe some connections to Qohor are missing. [FIXED, IF VALID]
- The territory Qohor keeps changing colour every turn. The owner stays the same even after the colour changes. [FIXED]
- Especially since two hitpoints units don't repair as default (assumingly, but not surely, intended), having the same image for damaged makes them visually impossible to tell them apart. [NOT FIXED]
- FreeCities has Sellswords image but can't have it in game. [QUESTIONABLE]
- Grayjoy has Ironraiders image but can't have it in game. [QUESTIONABLE]
- Starks has Northmen image but can't have it in game. [QUESTIONABLE]
- Tyrell has Warship image but can't have it in game. [QUESTIONABLE]
- Midlands Road has wrong connections. [FIXED]
- Lhazar and North Khyzai Pass are not connected. [FIXED]
- Dothraki have no attack capable sea units (nor any air units), thus they can be surely sea restricted with ease (also, by intended rules, you can never attack with only attack 0 transports, even though TripleA doesn't support this restrictions) (Irinam: -There simply are no Dothraki seaman, so having no sea Units at all would probably be more accurate.). [QUESTIONABLE]
- The Midlands Road name appears somwhere in the Dothraki sea. [FIXED]
- At the start of the game, Qohor is Neutral and uncontested but occupied by FreeCities troops. [FIXED]
- The opening combat move for Dothraki AI is to attack Qohor (perhaps because it is occupied?). When they occupy Qohor, the territory remains Neutral. [FIXED]
- When the FreeCities attack Qohor, all three territories (both Midlands Roads and Lhazar) light up as under attack. [FIXED]
- When the aforementioned attack is successful, the FreeCities troops occupy Midlands Road/blank rather than Midlands Road/Qohor as intended. [FIXED]
- All maps using no properties, maybe because they are meant to work by V1 rules, currently are unable to return fire, as well (for example, the Games of Thrones map). [FIXED*]
*The naval bombardment behaviour for the game is now v3 style.
Unofficial versions and variants and related currently downloadable outside the repository (several others have been lost, as the downloads are not anymore functional, and are not presented):
Qyrti:
Map name:
Game_of_Thrones_v2
Post:
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Game-of-Thrones-Maquis-tp7583763p7584784.html
Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ddguwpcdsdln68x/Game_of_Thrones_v2.zip/file
Alternative xml:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/assets/uploads/files/1532553170089-game_of_thrones_v2.zip
Notes:
The game can be loaded with the 1.8.0.9 engine, but needs to be unzipped first, because it has been zipped uncorrectly (double folder).
The notes claim incorrectly this to be a mod of "Game of Thrones", which is not true, as it needs its own skin to work properly (it is just its own map).
The game is clearly largely unfinished, especially regarding politics, and not seriously playable (it might be somewhat playable with houseruling and editing).
The "alternative xml", if refoldered correctly, can be loaded with the 1.9.0.0 engine as a mod of "game_of_thrones", using that map as skin (instead of "Game_of_Thrones_v2"), thus missing several units images and other skin elements.kor438:
Map name:
A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire
Post:
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/The-Game-of-Thrones-map-bug-tp7587435p7587606.html
Download:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/53b1axtf74f5kn3/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire.zip/file
Notes:
The game can be loaded with the 1.8.0.9 engine, but the skin fails to load (warning: Image Not Found:flags/FreeFolk_small.png).
The game can be started on case insensitive systems if unzipped.Matoro:
Map name:
GoT
Post:
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/A-Mod-of-Ice-and-Fire-tp7584544.html
Download original:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/tjqnjrszie7p71k/GoT.zip/file
Download latest:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/rs76ik107nuwcw7/GoT.zip/file
Notes:
The game appears working.@RogerCooper or anyone. I see that several offered maps and mods on this theme are not anymore downloadable at the given links. If anyone as anything else than what I linked here or that it is available in the repository (which currently means "Game of Thrones" only), except the "ASoIaF" map, that is just the old version of "Game of Thrones", please reupload it here or somewhere, and post a link to it, if you wish.
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@wc_sumpton said in Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread:
GoT Issues
- https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/3160 (not sure if any of these still remain)
For what I understand, they've all been fixed, and I believe you can remove the "ice box" label.
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Some very interesting inputs from an old thread:
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/The-Game-of-Thrones-map-bug-tp7587435p7587532.html
Thersite:
Next, politics seem like a must.
The starting alliances would be:
Tully-Stark
Lannister-BaratheonThe starting war would be:
Tully-Stark VS Lannister-Baratheon
Greyjoy VS Tully-Stark
Greyjoy VS Lannister-Baratheon
Targaryen VS Freecities
Targaryen VS Lannister-BaratheonAnd all the other relationships would be neutral at start. Of course, all of this would change (or not) as the game goes on.
Next, the new units, attachments, and production tables:
Production tables:
Tully: Sellsword – Swornsword - Archer – Catapult – Trebuchet – Knight – Raft – Galley – Warship – Castle – Fortification - Tower
Tyrell : Sellsword – Swornsword - Archer – Catapult – Trebuchet – Knight – Raft – Galley – Warship – Castle – Fortification – Tower
Stark: Sellsword – Swornsword - Archer – Catapult – Trebuchet – Knight – Raft – Galley – Warship – Castle – Fortification – Tower
Arryn: Sellsword – Swornsword - Archer – Catapult – Trebuchet – Knight – Raft – Galley – Warship – Castle – Fortification – Tower
Lannister: Sellsword – Pikeman – Archer – Crossbowman – Catapult – Trebuchet – Knight – Raft – Galley – Warship – Castle – Fortification – Tower
Baratheon: Sellsword – Swornsword - Archer – Catapult – Trebuchet – Knight – Raft – Galley – Warship – Castle – Fortification – Tower
Martell: Spearman/Desertraider – Archer – Catapult – Trebuchet – Horsearcher – Greenbloodboat – Galley – Castle – Fortification - Tower
Targaryen: Sellsword – Archer – Unsullied – Catapult – Trebuchet – Raft – Galley – Valyrianwarship – Castle – Fortification - Tower
Dothraki: Horsearcher – Horselord – Bloodrider – Khal – Raft – Galey – Castle
Freecities: Sellsword – Archer – Unsullied – Pitfighter – Catapult – Raft – Galley – Trireme – Castle – Fortification - Tower
Freefolk: Archer – Wildling – Warg – Catapult – Giant – Mammoth – Raft – Castle
Greyjoy: Sellsword – Ironraider – Archer – Catapult – Trebuchet – Knight – Raft – Longship – Greatship – Castle – Fortification - Tower
Units attachments:
Infantry:
Sellsword: 1/1/1 supportable 1 TC 3 PU
Swornsword: 1/2/1 supportable 1 TC 4 PU
Pikeman: 1/2/1 supportable 1 TC 5 PU
Ironraider: 2/1/1 supportable isMarine 4 PU
Spearman/Desertraider: 1/3/1 supportable 1 TC 5 PU
(name undecided, Martell's core unit)Unsullied: 2/2/1 1 TC 4 PU
Pitfighter: 3/3/1 1 TC 7 PU
Archer: 1/1/1 support 1 TC 4 PU
Crossbowman: 1/2/1 support 1 TC 5PU
Wildling: 1/2/2 supportable 1 TC 5 PU
Warg: 3/3/2 support 1 TC 10 PU
Giant: 4/4/1 supportable isTwohit 2 TC 15 PU
Artillery:
Catapult: 2/2/1 support 2 TC 6 PU
Trebuchet: 4/1/1 support 2 TC 8 PU
Cavalry:
Knight: 3/2/2 blitz 2 TC 7 PU
Horselord: 1/1/2 blitz 2 TC 4 PU
Horsearcher: 1/2/2 support 2 TC 5 PU
Bloodrider: 3/3/2 blitz 2 TC 8 PU
Khal: 4/4/2 supportable 1 TC 12 PU
Mammoth: 2/5/2 blitz isTwohit 2 TC 15 PU
Ships:
Raft: 0/1/2 3 T 8 PU
Galley: 2/2/2 1 T 10 PU
Warship: 3/3/3 2 T 14 PU
Longship: 2/2/2 supportable 10 PU
Greatship: 3/3/3 support 1 T 14 PU
Trireme: 2/2/4 4 T 14 PU
Greebloodboat: 0/1/2 4 T 8 PU
Valyrianwarship: 4/4/2 2 T 1 C 16 PU
Constructions:
Castle: isFactory 20 PU
Fortification: 0/1/0 2 PU
Tower: 0/4/0 5 PU
Special:
Direwolf: 4/3/3 10 PU
Dragon: 5/4/4 1 CC 20 PU
Neutral:
Mountainclansman: 2/2/1
Troll: 2/3/1
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