Cold War 1965 - Official Thread
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@LaFayette You mean taking an undefended territory with a land unit and having the paratrooping aircraft moving past it? If so, that is a bug, actually (illegal move).
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@Cernel Rules depend on the map, strict tournament like players will consider any allowable moves, unless obvious bugs, to be the rules regardless of what they should be external to the map.
Such an undefended territory can be captured by paratroop, and then another air-cargo can move past it. For a path 3 territories deep, you'd need at least 6 units, 3 inf and 3 cargo.
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@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
You mean taking an undefended territory with a land unit and having the paratrooping aircraft moving past it?
I don't think I implied that, AFAIK that one air transport cannot move until non-combat.
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@LaFayette said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
Such an undefended territory can be captured by paratroop, and then another air-cargo can move past it. For a path 3 territories deep, you'd need at least 6 units, 3 inf and 3 cargo.
I assure you that this is a bug. I would not allow you to perform such a move, if you were playing against me, unless the notes of the game state it is allowed.
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@Cernel If you play this map, I'd advise you make it clear, before starting, to any players that move is not allowed. Such a tactic is a 'flavor' of this map and is important strategically.
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The paratroops immediately capturing territories is not unique to this map though. That behavior I would not call a bug as the behavior is fully intended. A bug is something unintended.
@Panther could you weigh in if you agree that paratroop captures of undefended territory should happen immediately during combat-move or during combat?
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@LaFayette My opinion that is just a common bad abit of TripleA players, that they just go with what the engine does. That is merely a very old bug of v3 paratroopers, that so far no developer ever fixed.
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I see, I don't know if I would call it a bad habit. It is a mode of play where players basically agree:
- we are not going to argue the 'official' rules, we both know what the game engine does and does not do, what it allows is allowed, those are the rules.
- very narrow, specific and obvious bugs are allowed for edit, typically carrier unload/load and transport unload.
- strictly no edits are otherwise allowed.
I would call this "strict" play. I'm not always a fan of this, but for some players it's how they play. It's important to establish these rules before starting play.
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@LaFayette said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
The paratroops immediately capturing territories is not unique to this map though. That behavior I would not call a bug as the behavior is fully intended. A bug is something unintended.
@Panther could you weigh in if you agree that paratroop captures of undefended territory should happen immediately during combat-move or during combat?
In the A&A boardgames paratroopers don't take control of a territory just because they "land" there.
In v3 the Infantry unit is "dropped" in the first hostile territory during Combat Move Phase. They can attack there on their own or supported by other units.
In Europe/Pacific/Global 1940.2 paratroopers during Combat Move Phase can only land in an enemy-conrolled territory that at the same time is attacked by other land units coming from adjacent territories or is amphibiously assaulted.Control over a territoy changes during the Conduct Combat Phase, after combat has been resolved (maybe against zero defenders).
This is even true for a simple infantry walk-in into an empty enemy territory. Moving there occurs during Combat Move Phase while taking control occurs during Conduct Combat Phase.
There is one exception that is a tank's blitzing move: By blitzing, the tank establishes control of the first territory before it moves to the next.
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@Panther said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
@LaFayette said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
The paratroops immediately capturing territories is not unique to this map though. That behavior I would not call a bug as the behavior is fully intended. A bug is something unintended.
@Panther could you weigh in if you agree that paratroop captures of undefended territory should happen immediately during combat-move or during combat?
In the A&A boardgames paratroopers don't take control of a territory just because they "land" there.
In v3 the Infantry unit is "dropped" in the first hostile territory during Combat Move Phase. They can attack there on their own or supported by other units.
In Europe/Pacific/Global 1940.2 paratroopers during Combat Move Phase can only land in an enemy-conrolled territory that at the same time is attacked by other land units coming from adjacent territories or is amphibiously assaulted.Control over a territoy changes during the Conduct Combat Phase, after combat has been resolved (maybe against zero defenders).
This is even true for a simple infantry walk-in into an empty enemy territory. Moving there occurs during Combat Move Phase while taking control occurs during Conduct Combat Phase.
There is one exception that is a tank's blitzing move: By blitzing, the tank establishes control of the first territory before it moves to the next.
Yeah, but I recall also the case of the bomber moving through a hostile territory blitzed by an armour has been ruled out in the FAQ.
The wrong implementation of defenceless territory capture/liberation in TripleA is a source of bugs (like this one) and also a problem in the moment you want to switch the combat movement and purchase phase, as it causes the fact that you can spend the captured income on the same turn, if a capital is captured when defenceless. This is documented as a special rule in NWO and WAW, but it is really based on a TripleA problem turned into pseudo-normal practice.
I wonder if this behaviour is consistent in all Axis & Allies game since Classic 1st edition? In particular, how about the fact that the Classic 3rd edition program (1998) actually switched ownership of blitzed hostile territories during conduct combat, not combat movement? I know in practice nothing changes, but was that a program inconsistency, or in 3rd edition you actually changed control of blitzed territories during conduct combat, instead of combat movement?
You can see it here, at 5:05, in the typical round 1 blitzing of French Equatorial Africa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKaz_lXxPtw -
@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
Yeah, but I recall also the case of the bomber moving through a hostile territory blitzed by an armour has been ruled out in the FAQ.
Indeed, it has been clarified that the bomber carrying paratroopers has to stop in that first hostile territory (v3).
Update:
@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:The wrong implementation of defenceless territory capture/liberation in TripleA is a source of bugs (like this one) and also a problem in the moment you want to switch the combat movement and purchase phase, as it causes the fact that you can spend the captured income on the same turn, if a capital is captured when defenceless. This is documented as a special rule in NWO and WAW, but it is really based on a TripleA problem turned into pseudo-normal practice.
I wonder if this behaviour is consistent in all Axis & Allies game since Classic 1st edition? In particular, how about the fact that the Classic 3rd edition program (1998) actually switched ownership of blitzed hostile territories during conduct combat, not combat movement? I know in practice nothing changes, but was that a program inconsistency, or in 3rd edition you actually changed control of blitzed territories during conduct combat, instead of combat movement?
This is consistent since v2.
In Classic (v1) 2nd ed. moving land units into empty enemy territories during Combat Move Phase leads to taking control immediately.
I have no idea regarding the 1998 software (3rd ed.). -
If I understand right:
v1 + v2: control of an undefended territory is immediate (on combat move)
v3+: control is only changed during combat phaseBlitz is an exception in all versions, where control is switched immediately. Please correct me if I'm wrong: if a tank blitzes into two territories, both undefended, a paradrop could potentially land in a 3rd territory behind the blitzed territories?
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If I understand right:
v1 + v2: control of an undefended territory is immediate (on combat move)
v3+: control is only changed during combat phase
No, it is rather:
v1: control of an undefended territory is immediate (on combat move)
v2+: control is only changed during combat phaseBlitz is an exception in all versions, where control is switched immediately.
Correct
if a tank blitzes into two territories, both undefended, a paradrop could potentially land in a 3rd territory behind the blitzed territories?
No, as it has been clarified that the bomber carrying the paratrooper has to stop when entering the first hostile territory. (v3)
In Europe, Pacific, Global 1940 2nd ed. paratroopers are "flying infantries", not carried by a bomber.
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@Panther Thanks for the clarification, want to try and understand this right:
- blitz is just a unique exception
- in v1, control change is immediate, so that is the only case where paratroops can fly beyond newly captured territories
Is that right?
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Blitz is a unique exception, indeed, for the first territory the tank enters. By blitzing, the tank establishes control of the first territory before it moves to the next.
A tank's move through a friendly territory into a second hostile territory is no blitz, but simply a regular combat move, using the 2-movement-points ability.Paratroopers are not part of the v1 ruleset. In case someone intends to introduce paratroopers here, I would recommend to apply the v3 clarification, as all combat movement occurs simultaneously in every edition. So bombers carrying paratroopers should never be able to fly beyond newly captured territories, IMHO.
For reference, this is the respective clarification:
Q. Bombers carrying Paratroopers must stop moving in the first hostile territory they enter. If a
tank is blitzing through an unoccupied hostile territory, does a bomber entering that territory
during the same Combat Movement phase have to stop there, or can it keep moving?A. It must stop. Even though the territory is captured as soon as the blitzing tank enters it, and the
territory is considered friendly at that point, all combat movement is simultaneous. This means that
the bomber and tank entered the territory at the same time, when it was still hostile. -
@LaFayette said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
- in v1, control change is immediate, so that is the only case where paratroops can fly beyond newly captured territories
In v3 control change is immediate also when you blitz the first hostile (undefended and without infrastructures) territory, yet you cannot fly beyond it, anyways. So this means that you can never fly over (land) territories that were hostile at the start of the phase. The reason for this is that all movement happens at the same time, so it doesn't matter if you moved first the armour or first the paratrooping bomber, into the hostile territory.
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@Panther said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
The wrong implementation of defenceless territory capture/liberation in TripleA is a source of bugs (like this one) and also a problem in the moment you want to switch the combat movement and purchase phase, as it causes the fact that you can spend the captured income on the same turn, if a capital is captured when defenceless. This is documented as a special rule in NWO and WAW, but it is really based on a TripleA problem turned into pseudo-normal practice.
I wonder if this behaviour is consistent in all Axis & Allies game since Classic 1st edition? In particular, how about the fact that the Classic 3rd edition program (1998) actually switched ownership of blitzed hostile territories during conduct combat, not combat movement? I know in practice nothing changes, but was that a program inconsistency, or in 3rd edition you actually changed control of blitzed territories during conduct combat, instead of combat movement?
This is consistent since v2.
In Classic (v1) 2nd ed. moving land units into empty enemy territories during Combat Move Phase leads to taking control immediately.
I have no idea regarding the 1998 software (3rd ed.).Ok, then I was arguably partially wrong. Since the default behaviour of TripleA is arguably v1, the TripleA behaviour of changing control of undefended territories during Combat Movement is correct. What is wrong is that when the game is supposed to be v2 or following rules (like having the WW2V2 property true) it still works as v1 rules, for this behaviour. I guess this is substantially a bug or missing feature of the WW2V2 property.
I'm now very curious why Classic 2nd Edition and Classic 3rd Edition appear to be one the opposite of the other one, since, as you say, in 2nd Edition all undefended territories are captured/liberated during combat movement, while the 3rd Edition program have them being captured/liberated during conduct combat, even in all blitzing cases. I suppose I'll have to ask krieghund on the Axis&Allies fan forum about that, right?
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@Panther said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
Paratroopers are not part of the v1 ruleset. In case someone intends to introduce paratroopers here, I would recommend to apply the v3 clarification, as all combat movement occurs simultaneously in every edition. So bombers carrying paratroopers should never be able to fly beyond newly captured territories, IMHO.
For reference, this is the respective clarification:
Q. Bombers carrying Paratroopers must stop moving in the first hostile territory they enter. If a
tank is blitzing through an unoccupied hostile territory, does a bomber entering that territory
during the same Combat Movement phase have to stop there, or can it keep moving?A. It must stop. Even though the territory is captured as soon as the blitzing tank enters it, and the
territory is considered friendly at that point, all combat movement is simultaneous. This means that
the bomber and tank entered the territory at the same time, when it was still hostile.Paratroopers (actually "Paratroop Units") are part of the Classic ruleset, albeit only for the 3rd Edition and as on option. At least for this matter, there would be no problem for this edition, as the paratrooping bomber didn't have any additional movement limitations. This is a feature that TripleA fails to support. As long as the actual "World War II Classic 2nd Edition" game goes, there was indeed no paratroopers like option, so, as being a house rule, whatever.
My personal opinion, Classic paratroopers were much better than Anniversary paratroopers, hands down. I especially like the fact that the bomber loses the ability to attack if it paratroops, while the Anniversary limitation that a bomber is somehow unable to fly over a hostile territory is totally unrealistic.
@redrum Going back to this actual game, especially if not fixing all paratroopers related bugs, I would recommend making paratroopers able to fly over hostile territories (TripleA supports this optional behaviour), mainly for realism, but this would likely require rebalancing the cost of whatever units able to air transport (and documenting this v3 rules exception in notes).
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@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
Paratroopers (actually "Paratroop Units") are part of the Classic ruleset, albeit only for the 3rd Edition and as on option.
Fair enough. I am always referring to the boardgames only, as I have never dealt with the CD-edition. That is why I said "no idea" above.
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@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
I'm now very curious why Classic 2nd Edition and Classic 3rd Edition appear to be one the opposite of the other one, since, as you say, in 2nd Edition all undefended territories are captured/liberated during combat movement, while the 3rd Edition program have them being captured/liberated during conduct combat, even in all blitzing cases. I suppose I'll have to ask krieghund on the Axis&Allies fan forum about that, right?
Actually I am currently in the process of discussing the change-of-control-aspect in v1 reconsidering it with Krieghund. While there I have already addressed the 3rd-edition Blitz "maybe" inconsistency.
I will add any news here...
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