Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread

[TheDog]

@bel246
Our play styles are very different, thats what makes this game great.
I produce Irregulars most of the time.
When I can I produce 2HP units, the best is the the Kodo Tower, its a move 2 Watch Tower (Factory), a bit overpriced.

Tauren Oil, the Giant Turtle, is very overpriced, but you only need one, stack with another ship and a transport to soak damage and in the narrow sea it should dominate.

I agree with you I now never build skeletons, its not the cost it is the requirement to be at a Factory that stops me.

I have not spent much time looking at the treasure items but I did notice the Artillery +1 range was OP. I will keep a closer eye on them, in the next version.

[avshar]

Well I managed to get some time to come back on here. Sorry for the lack of feedback lately.

Ok, been playing a bit and have some ideas about some of the things we have been discussing. I've played many games up to the first 15-20 turns, playing as different races and trying to see what the mix from the random placement does to starting play. I think i have played maybe 70 or more starts.

I am no longer certain food is such a huge issue that needs nerfing or at least not from land sources. I have come across a few games where the race i was playing ended up with a start that had zero of some of the resources within a good distance from me. Some of those times it was food. So if you nerf food maybe it should be more from the later game sources in the oceans. Your ships do collect a lot of food and that's why there is a large stock pile later in the game.

Depending on play style food may be more important to you than others. Some players have said they don't buy bowmen or crossbowmen but i find that if i have a good supply of food i almost never buy irregulars, i buy the bowmen or crossbowmen, depending on if i need to be defensive or offensive in my play on that game. So nerfing the food on the mainland may not be a good way to go about it. Not sure if you've thought about it one way or the other.

Shipping is interesting. I had thought, as the others did, that the Alliance gets a big advantage in shipping but this has not always been the case in my games. The pirates do hold them up for a few rounds beyond when they have enough resources to produce a navy and that seems in most games to equal the time it takes for the Horde to reach their ports, although the Orcs are really challenged in this, especially if there are a lot of creatures to kill to open the port. The Alliance can pump out a few more ships a turn than the Horde. For most of the game it doesn't matter and things tend to play out evenly. It's the games that have equalization on land and go for a long time that that advantage eventually seems to turn in favor of the Alliance. So i have figured that the Horde can't afford to be equal on land. You need to be aggressive so the Alliance doesn't use that advantage later in the game to overwhelm you. Makes for some interesting game play. But with competent players on both sides i do wonder if it would end up with more victories going to the Alliance when everything else is equal.

The races not being equal is not such a big deal to me. However there are some races where certain resources are just not important. I'm thinking of the Gnomes with regards to mana and the Trolls regarding oil. The Gnomes can only buy manabots with mana, unless they get lucky and have an elemental stone close enough. The Trolls only use oil to get those nearly useless flame boats. In the case of the Trolls its at least good that its a late game resource like oil. For the Gnomes it can be bad. I've had a few games where the Gnomes ended up with tons of mana but not much food or gold and they suffered badly in those games.

I agree with others about the siege weapon problems. The A.I. is stupid enough to come into range and suffer for it but a human will not make that mistake more than once. Well at least they shouldn't. Some of the more O.P. magic items may need more looking at. Sometimes i end up with one of my hero's being a juggernaut. I just wipe the floor with anyone stupid enough to fight me. Not sure if this was intended to be a possibility but it certainly makes for a short game.

Others have covered some of my other thoughts quite well and i think i will end it here. Still play testing though i hadn't been on for a while so i was playing with an older version. Will update before i play again.

[Cernel]

@Frostion For your information:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/7211

[TheDog]

@Frostion
Treasure Items
Nautical Charts, I can confirm the hero has to be in a sea area and all ships gain +2 movement, if this is intended the Tool tips need to be updated to this effect.

Quality Bow, I have never seen any hero pick this up, so it might be worth removing?

[Frostion]

Here is another update. I hope it is downloadable soon:

v0.1.3 to v0.1.4:
• Origin-Instructor now gives +10 Veterans, not 7.
• Origin-Officer now gives +7 Elites, not 5.
• Origin-Guard now gives free Veteran-Footmen units, not Elite-Footmen units.
• Orcs, Tauren and Undead now start with 1 Footmen more (to boost their start, as they are unlikely to get access to sea resources before round 6)
• Added the phrase “except Tauren” to the info about Heroes getting Movement 2 at level 5.
• Heroes and pets can no longer return in the same round as they were lost. Now they have to wait until the end of the next round.
• The standard 10 XP generation per round per player, has been removed from the Hero units given to a hidden unit. This is so that a player does not risk ending up in a situation where the Hero is dead and the player does not generate XP to revive him/her.
• Added info in tooltips about Map-of-Azeroth not giving blitz capability.
• “Steel Foot Standard” now works for all Footmen types.
• All Factory buildings and upgrades now cost the same 30 Gold and PUs (The bigger upgrades will still be attractive to put in chokepoints).
• All Air Units now have 1 less movement.
• All Artillery and their Shots have approximately 1 less strength.
• Fire-Canoe now has 60% kill chance / First strike chance vs. 1 Enemy Unit, not 50%.
• Elementals can no longer be transported.
• Sorcerer now cost 30 Pus, not 35 Pus.
• Dire-Troll now cost 65 Pus, not 70 Pus.
• A few other changes.

I will try to respond to most of what has been brought up here as feedback. But there is stuff that I have not touched upon:

“Nautical-Charts does not give +2 movement (or does it if the Hero is on a Transport?”
Yes it does. It is a Hero ability, so every ship that is located next to the hero will get +1 movement. Like if you have a Hero on a land territory and a ship or a fleet of ships out in the water next to the Hero, then all the ships will depart with +1 movement. I tried this and it works. It is very strong as it can be used to quickly move the hero up the coast, capturing land territories. But I think that the Hero MUST get off the ship between rounds (going to land) so that Hero may stand on the land and give +2 next turn. Heroes cannot give +2 when at sea (I think, but have not tried).

“Suicide ammunition is a little tricky (...) whoever moves first gets a big disadvantage of never being able to use his ammunition.”
This is an old issue. If the defender must be able to make use of the ammo, then the ammo must fire when it is attacked. This makes it vulnerable to the attack-to-kill-all-ammo “exploit”. Any technical solution to this unbalance is very welcome!

“A lot of items and map objects don't have a description.”
Hmmm? I thought that I gave all the items descriptions, at least the Hero items. All capturable buildings / structures on the map that stays on the map should also have descriptions. But there might be some items with only “generic game engine tooltips”. Just hover the mouse over the items and wait for the pop-up. But if I have missed any, then please point them out.

“I wasn't able to use griffins or Air-Balloons as air transport at all”
You have to click them and load them with the units, just like paratroopers. They may carry characters and Heroes. They are not moved like land-transports, where you just click both units and move them simultaneously.

“The Troll hero cannot use the movement speed of 3 from the Balloon in Plaguewood, see turn 10.”
Orc Zeppelins only got full movement for air-transport in non-combat”
This is a mistake that players often make. I also frequently think “why can’t I move this … why can’t it go full range!” This happens when you try to move the loaded air unit into friendly territory during combat move phase. You will experience no such problems during the non-combat move phase. This is because you are not doing a movement that results in combat, so the engine will not accept it.
I would prefer that the engine allowed the move, or alternatively went all in and illegalized all the land unit combat moves that did not result in combat or capturing of territories. The way it works now clearly creates confusion when players cannot move the Air Units. But I am sure that @Cernel and maybe the devs have some sort of explanation or reason for the system being as it is?

“Ring of Retaliation gives +1 defense roll. It doesn't look like only the best roll is chosen.”
I tested this out, and to me it seem like it is working as it should. I took this screenshot during a test battle. Basically it should the Hero killing first 1 enemy, then another one in another combat round, when the dice actually both hit, still only the “best one” is chosen. Maybe it is not working in the battle calculator, I don’t know about that.
EDIT: Here is the screenshot ... a little late Elven Hero kills one orc with the Bow at the very begining of the battle, and then later kills only one more orc while defending normal, even with two hits. One is grey as it does not kill.

“no description what a hero level does. Sometimes it explains itself, but sometimes I just couldn't figure it out.”
The best info at the moment is in the Hero Bar, hover the mouse over the top left of the level status, as indicated at the Human player. This will of course change in the future to a visual description of the level abilities.

“Guard is an extremely strong origin. Starting with one more unit helps you explore a lot. (…) you get another one every ten rounds. Officer is comparable and there you don't have that unit at the start of the game.”
Yes it is a strong origin start, and a strong unit. Therefore the guard unit given is now Veteran-Footmen, not Elite. And the Instructor gives +10 Vets now. We might see the Guard ad strong, but the Instructor, in theory, gives you about 50% more veteran units, when playing a long game. I don’t know if it is balanced, but I think it is at least a choice that the player needs think about.

With ”Instructor” (Can buy any veteran unit types!):
1 Veteran Footmen purchase round 6
1 Veteran Footmen purchase round 11
1 Veteran Footmen purchase round 16
1 Veteran Footmen purchase round 21
1 Veteran Footmen purchase round 26
1 Veteran Footmen purchase round 31
1 Veteran Footmen purchase round 36
1 Veteran Footmen purchase round 41

With ”Guard”:
1 Veteran Footmen placement round 1
1 Veteran Footmen placement round 10
1 Veteran Footmen placement round 20
1 Veteran Footmen placement round 30
1 Veteran Footmen placement round 40

”Quality Bow”
This item is one of the lowest strength ranged weapons, but still any Hero will pick it up if he/she has nothing better, and they start out with nothing better than this Quality Bow. I tested it out But yes most of the time it will maybe not be used.

@Cernel So you got a multiplayer game going but starting it on your own, and then later letting another join?

@all If you play again, then please keep the feedback coming! And just re-address old issues if you still find them worth mentioning.

[Cernel]

@Frostion said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:

@Cernel So you got a multiplayer game going but starting it on your own, and then later letting another join?

What do you mean by "multiplayer"? While a game with 2 players is technically a multiplayer, multiplayer is commonly understood in the lobby as a game with 3 or more players (since you are never supposed to play solo in the lobby, it would be otherwise meaningless to use the term at all).

[TheDog]

Oooh shiny, I'm really liking the new startup positions, especially Gart position, I guess thats to bypass the AI being dim.

Air power is still good even with -1 move, but feels more balanced now.

Artillery
For me there is little choice. I always produce the Trebuchet, so ignore the other artillery, as there is not enough difference.  I tend to put a Trebuchet;

• on a Troopship - attack shipping and the shore
• in a harbour - to attack enemy shipping
• at choke points
• in my army stack.

So I would still like the Trebuchet to build anywhere in my territories with 0 move, this makes it different to the Catapult and so cheaper. 
The Ballista could be the best unit to take down the air units.

As a Troop Ship can carry 25, then Catapult & Trebuchet should be 15 and 20 Transporting Cost, so only one can be carried.  Otherwise players will load 2 onto a Troopship and shoot from the sea.  Im fine with the Ballista only having Transporting Cost 10 as the Greeks and Romans put them on their ships.

Muster  Veteran and Elite Cavalry is too expensive I will never consider them at 100, maybe 80.

Undead 
Skeletons currently are not viable, Sevis should always be on the move attacking, so staying in a Factory will be rare.  If there was a maximum limit on the number of skeleton units, I'm thinking 3,  then they could be produced in any owned territory?

Trolls
Dire Troll its gold cost is too cheap for a 2HP unit.  It is competing for gold with the Berserker with 25 gold, so needs to cost more.

Fire Canoe, even with the changes is still a non starter.  What about replacing its attack with the Undead Fire-Shot.  That would compensate for its move of 1.  The image looks like it has a syphon for delivering Greek Fire.

[Frostion]

I generally agree that the artillery could be made a bit more interesting, so that players would want to have different kinds of art.illery in different situations. This would spice up the game.

I was thinking maybe like this:

*Catapult Unit (4 Att / 4 Def)
*Catapult Shot (First strike, 4 Att / 4 Def vs. Land Units, 0-1 Bombardment vs. Factories)
**Ballista Unit (5 Att / 5 Def)
**Balista Shot (First strike, 5 Att / 5 Def vs. Air Units, 0-2 Bombardment vs. Factories)
***Trebuchet Unit (6 Att / 6 Def)
***Trebuchet Shot (First strike, 6 Att / 6 Def vs. Sea Units, 0-3 Bombardment vs. Factories)

Catapult Unit would be the weakest unit on its own. But at the same time, it would be the only unit capable of using its Shots against enemy land units, near and far. Making this a pretty good unit to have in the army, so that you can “thin out” or "harass" the enemy before real battle begins. Or just to fire at enemies that try to run past you or who is just camping.

Ballista Unit would be a stronger unit. But Ballista-Shots would be the only Shots capable of hitting Air Units, near and far. And Air Units, if present, are in general more treasured buy their owners than random 1 HP land units. So any enemy would hesitate having Air Units within range of Ballista, as the Shots would have 50% chance of killing an Air Unit.

Trebuchet Unit would be the strongest unit by its own (most men working it and protecting it). Its Shots would be the only Shots capable of hitting the expensive Sea Units. It would be good as coastal defense, as well as be the strongest bombard unit of the three.

Have no idea about the prices for the above yet. Most likely as they are now.
This job distribution would also make a little sense if you think: Land Units = closest enemies, so hit buy catapult, Air Units = mid ranged and hit buy ballista, Sea Units = Furthest away, so Treb is good. (Even though all the shots would technically have Movement 1 )

[TheDog]

Yes thats looking good.
If its not listed, then I assume that its not at range 1, so same territory only ?

[TheDog]

Night Elves
Ceremonial Fire 3x Wisps 1 1 1        30pu   100oil
Can be placed in any owned Territory
The Tool Tips need to reflect the Ceremonial Fire transmutes into 3 Wisps
and 
Undead
3x Skeletons 1 1 1   15pu   15mana
Need Sevis & Factory to be placed

These are similar, but their costs are not.

Dwarf Riflemen, cannot be bought in the Buy phase, but can only be Mustered, is this intentional?
If so there should be a Tool Tip.

HP: 2 Units

I cannot work out how you have calculated the unit costs, so I will draw some comparisons.
The Gunship should cost more Oil.
The Abomination should cost more Gold (Bold Red)
Dire Troll should cost a lot more Gold (Bold Red)

[Frostion]

@TheDog I actually thought Riflemen was scrapped from the game, LOL. I think the Dwarves already have their 5 special units, like all other races. So maybe Riflemen will be removed, unless I figure out how they could fit in.

In regards to unit cost of all the special units: You can/must ONLY compare their PUs cost. Any cost effectiveness should ONLY take the PU cost in mind. When it comes to special units, then their Mana, Oil and Gold cost is ONLY there to determine how high/low unit availability is, how many of this unit should the player be allowed to spawn thought out the game.

All the special units should be much better than standard units when it comes to cost/effectiveness, so that the player would buy the units whenever possible. The only thing holding mass production back should be the available Mana, Oil and Gold (gold being the only resource also used to buy something else (factories)).

This means that units costing 30 PUs + 50 Mana would/should most likely result in the player buying twice the amount throughout a game, compared to if the unit cost 30 PUs + 100 Mana.

Only taking PUs in mind and the effectiveness of units, I am not really sure how much comparisons and price balancing I have done by now. I think I did price balancing in the beginning of the map making process, but at some point I began tweaking every race's prices individually, and I have quite frankly not recently given special unit prices that much priority and thought. But I probably will by the next update.

It is not at all a simple thing to set PU prices on 2HP units, positive and negative support units, and on the top that, support units only giving support to certain units. No easy task

[TheDog]

@Frostion
Thanks for explaining how PU relates to other resources.

So to Origins.

The above table attempts to show how important the Origins are.

They are split into two groups, Frequency used per turn;
High - used every turn
Situational

So to rebalance the Origins the
1 XP could be removed from the High Origins or
Reduce all the Resource bonus say by 1, so PU would go down from 4 to 3PU.

Also it would be good if the Origins list displayed could reflect the two major groups just by changing the order they are displayed.

The High Frequency Origin Resources should be displayed in the order that they appear as in the Resource status row at the bottom of the main screen, perhaps in the order of the table?

[TheDog]

Is it possible to hard code the AI to have the first four Origins?

Tool Tips Change all Fiendly  :angry_face_with_horns: to Friendly

Tool Tips Origin Seafarer should also say, you must own the Territory Port/Harbourer to be able to place the Workboat.

[TheDog]

@Frostion
Each Item (Treasure) has an associated PU value, is this its relative worth?

What does the AI do with this PU? (Nothing or is it used for placing, capturing etc)

Is it possible, however unlikely, that all the 25PU items could be placed very near each other?

[Frostion]

@TheDog said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:

@Frostion
Each Item (Treasure) has an associated PU value, is this its relative worth?

What does the AI do with this PU? (Nothing or is it used for placing, capturing etc)

Is it possible, however unlikely, that all the 25PU items could be placed very near each other?

The PU values are only used by the AI to figure out what to capture, what is worth alot And what is worth a little less. And it seems to work. At least it seems like the AI is pretty focused on rushing towards the closest Port. Especially Tauren, Orcs and Unread clearly does this.

I have not noticed if the AI places totally random or if the PU value affects the pattern of placements. If it does then at least all items and resource generators should have the exact same PU value.

[TheDog]

@Frostion
Thanks for the explanation.

Items (Treasure)
Here are a few suggestions that I value differently.
Long-Range-Artillery 25PU Gives All Friendly Shots +1 Movement
Horn-of-Cenarius       15PU Gives 5 Friendly Ranged Units +3 Targeted Power

The replacement Ranged Weapons PU are too cheap, they have a Combat and XP component and should cost more than 25PU, but I think you have imposed a 25PU limit?
As an example The Crystal Ball is 25PU and is +5XP
The Magic Bow is 25PU and is +10XP and has a Target Power: 7

So Ranged Weapons XP should be reduced. To rebalance these items they should generate a lot less XP.
Suggest taking the current PU / 5 = new XP value.
This on average would generate 1/2 of the current XP.

[TheDog]

@Frostion

Air Power
The table below attempts to compare air power.

Consider changing to the following;
Hippogryph 25PU and 35Mana as its PU appears too cheap and its a transport 25 for being a flyer + 5 for each TC = 35mana

Airship/Zeppelin as they are transport 25oil for being a flyer + 5 for each TC = 50oil

Wind-Hexer is difficult to balance, 40PU (because of the 4Atk) and 25mana to match the other non-transport flyers.

The Oil/mana cost as you have said is more subjective depending on the races forces and how many of that type you want.

For now I have done reporting on "things" so I will await the next version.

[TheDog]

@Frostion
I cant help myself thinking more about Fortifications/Factories they are still too easy to take, perhaps in addition to their archers they should provide support to allied units, as they garrison it.
Eg.
Guard-Tower: Support on Defence: to 1 Allied Unit,
Capital:                                            to 5 Allied Units
or similar.

Also noticed this
Line 15736 I think should say            <option name="players" value="$AllPlayers$"/>
as its missing
There are many missing $AllPlayers$ lines, are they required?

[ff03k64]

Just wondering if there is anything downloadable for this yet. Thanks!

[Panther]

@ff03k64 Find it ingame: