@redrum said in World At War - Official Thread:
@Cernel Once you push up the changes to the WaW repo (https://github.com/triplea-maps/world_at_war) then I'm fine with updating the version in the download list.
I strongly suggest getting around updating WAW shortly before the start of August, so that everyone will get the update notification after that. If it is too low on your list of priorities, I think you can delay updating the download description, besides updating the version number (so to figure as updated), if that would otherwise mean waiting after the end of July.
There is a problem with either the behaviour or the current notes of World At War version 2.1.0 and 2.1.1, as well as WAW 1940 version 2.1.0 and 2.1.1.
The "Combat Movement Before Purchase Phase" ingenerates a rules change that it is not explained in notes.
A player retaking its own capital may have saved income (that it captured from other players while not controlling an own capital itself) that he would not normally be able to spend on that same turn, but, by retaking an own capital without battle, he would be, instead, due to the fact that combat move is before purchase and the engine behaviour that anticipates the ownership change at combat move when a battle is not required.
Here you can see an example, in which the case of a player having no capitals, yet having saved income, is presented and clarified:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=16555.0
The difference of combat move before purchase is that you can liberate your capital before purchasing, thus (if your captured capital is left undefended by your enemies) you can use any captured PUs on that same turn.
Mind you that this can also couple with the other special rule, already spelled out in notes, of capturing income before purchase. For example, if a player (beside Russians) starts the turn with no capitals and, on that same turn, it both liberates an undefended own capital and captures an undefended enemy capital, it will be able to spend the captured income on the same turn, that would have been impossible, under the normal phase order, for the duplice reasons of not having that captured income yet and not having a capital to spend any income anyways.
I realised this problem just recently because, in a game of "270BC 40%", I took Carthago with RomanRepublic, then Carthage took Roma its next turn, thus taking all RomanRepublic income plus the Carthage income I just captured, but having no capital to use it. However, on the same turn in which Roma fell, he also manoeuvre so to be able to retake Carthage its next turn and, having 3 ballistas in Carthago, and no reinforcements at hand, I left 1 ballista in there, just so that Carthago wouldn't have been retaken before purchase, hence delaying of 1 turn the Carthage ability to spend its massive looted income, and, even more important, having the possibility to recapture it, actually likely in the case both my ballista survived to then counterattack. This game proved it possible for such a rule change to have a very great impact!
With this said, "270BC 40%" is a game with few units around, so having to spare a ballista to delay a capital liberation is something of some major impact, while I guess having to leave a unit is not anywhere that big deal for WAW. However, this doesn't decrease the importance of this item that much, as I'm under the impression that this matter can be easily overlooked by many (thus forgetting to leave the unit to impede the early liberation, not seeing the matter at all).
I believe there is also the item that the WAW clarifications may be used as a basis, and copypasted, in other games having combat move before purchase, as they are not only the special rules of that game, but also probably a referring point (and the best detailed one thus far) of what changes you incur once you apply such an altered phase order to a v2 rules game, which would have quite an extensive influence, as bot v2 is the most popular ruleset and the combat move before purchase is a popular choice for custom games, that might want to copy all or part of the WAW notes on their own ones (think about all custom games having combat move before purchase, plus mods of classic games adopting it).
So, I believe this is an actual rule change, due to the combat move before purchase, that we all missed (or at least I don't recall anyone pointed out here or in any other Sieg maps and related topics), and should, either:
1- be added and explained in notes, as a rules change of the altered phase order, or
2- be added and explained in notes, as a user enforced limit of the engine, in that you should avoid making any purchases if they are allowed only by capitals reconquered on the same turn (meaning limit yourself never to purchase anything, if you are not Russians and start the turn with no capitals), or
3- be corrected at the engine level, restricting the capital requirement for purchasing to territories you owned since the start of your turn (basically, it would be like you test if you have enough capitals in which you can place units, instead of testing just for any capitals) (so that purchase being before or after combat move won't matter) (probably in this case it would be opportune to clarify in notes that retaking a capital on the same turn won't allow you to purchase anything, if you weren't able at start turn (not having any capital at that point), to not have people wondering), or
4- add a property that causes always destroying captured income for players not meeting their "retainCapitalNumber" at end turn (it should be end turn, not immediate, so not to have different outcomes depending on battles' order, when both capturing an enemy capital and liberating your own on the same turn); meaning that, when that property is true, if the conditions that make you unable to collect new income are met, then there is also the effect of losing all resources (not just PUs) you may already have (I suggest this applying tho whatever resources, comprising tech tokens), then adding this property, setting it true and not editable, and adding this special rule in notes (not as part of the Combat Movement Before Purchase Phase, in this case), or
5- make a set of triggers, for World At War, implementing what the above described property would do.
@redrum, do you agree this needs to be either added in the special rules, one way or the other, or corrected at the engine level?
My clear preference would be 4, as I also think that the "normal" behaviour of players with no capitals hiding the captured income in some secret treasuries and it remaining hidden forever nowhere, even if all territories of that player are conquered, is really nonsensical to the extreme. So, I think it would be nice to give the mapmakers a property to have a sensible behaviour, for custom maps (they can already do it with triggers removing income, of course).
However, considering that this map is "World At War", it would be out of its style to make custom rules for cases not gameplay related, thus this would drive to exclude 4 and 5 alike.
Anyhow, I tend to think this would not exclude 3, as, in my mind, it is kind of intuitive that if you have no capitals in which you can place any units, thus no capitals able to produce, then you should not be able to produce at all.
The number 3 behaviour would be also in line with other turn-based behaviours, like the case of passing through canals, in which the engine tests for what was owned at start turn, not at that moment.
So, maybe, even tho in a custom map my preference would be surely 4 (and I would still advice to make a property for that anyway), in the interest of keeping the behaviour as it would have been in regular Revised, then I would probably advise option 3, for this game.
However, that is up to a developer to do such an engine change and, if there is not the intention to do so, I would say proceed as per point 1 would make the most sense, considering that all other instances of rules changes due to the altered phase order are resolved the same way.
In case 3 or 4 get made, pos2 will need to be updated (I can do that).
Still pointing out that I advise not touching the map, but doing it at the engine level (3 or 4; probably 3 is more fitting here), if otherwise decided, instead, I would prefer doing the change myself. Are you fine with me doing it or do you prefer doing it yourself? Of course, it should be done the same way both in "World At War" and in "WAW 1940".
Also, should the version, in this case, be increased to 2.1.2 or 2.2.0 (I'm really undecided, since this would be a rules change not previously clarified, thus, arguably, a change to the gameplay dynamics, which would require upgrading to 2.2.0) or should it rather stay as 2.1.1, since you haven't yet merged my commit to upgrade to 2.1.1 or since it is just a change in notes?
This is what I think I would, then, add, as a point of "Combat Movement Before Purchase Phase", in the case number 1:
Liberating an own capital empty of combat units (combat units are all units but Factory and AAGun) allows spending all (captured) PUs one might have (comprising income just captured from undefended enemy capitals) right away in the same turn's purchase phase, even if controlling no own capitals at start turn (it is advised to leave at least one cheap combat unit in capitals liable to be liberated by the original owner, if it may have a considerable captured income and it is not expected to control any own capitals at start turn, except for Russians).
On more general terms, I personally believe that it would be cool if putting combat move before or after purchase would not cause any rules changes (or maybe having a new integrated phase, in which you can both combat move and purchase), beside only the case of not being able to validate movements requiring landing on new carriers, thus I support 3, as a step in such a direction (tho I also support 4, as that is what would make the most sense).
Myself, I would suggest to do both 3 and 4, tho for this issue only one of the two would be required, if solving this issue at the engine level.
p.s.: If this is not going to be addressed at the engine level (my suggestion), I suppose I will add an analogue clarification to my "270BC Cernel Variant" and "270BC 40%" variants, as it is a subtle difference easy to be overlooked (my opponent in the aforementioned "270BC 40%" game took a while to realise why I left a ballista in Carthago, despite me explaining the difference in the behaviour, due to move before purchase).
p.p.s.: As I anticipated, I believe it is not clear if this topic is about talking of the "World At War" map or of the "World At War" game; meaning if it should be used for talking about "WAW 1940", or whatever other mods may be added for the "World At War" map, beside the "World At War" game, or not. Personally, my preference is "WAW 1940" having its own thread, but I doubt that "ice" will reopen it in this forum and I'm not sure if people should be supposed to talk about it in the related topic in the old Sourceforge forum (I guess not, since it is deprecated) and there is also the unclarified matter if "ice" is still the "owner" of the "WAW 1940" mod, or if you did take ownership of the whole current map, comprising it (in case: no, I don't want to be the "owner" of "WAW 1940", and I'm not re-opening the related topic, now in the old deprecated forum, either (I guess if it is clarified that this topic is not for "WAW 1940", and noone is opening a topic for that, then people are supposed to open a topic themselves each time they want to talk about something related to that, that I believe it would be dispersive, and it is a problem for whatever maps or games having dedicated topics in the old forum that have not been recreated in the new one, likely because the referring user being currently inactive)), or if it may be regarded as an un-owned particle (or owned by "ice", no matter if he agrees?) inside the World At War map owned by you?
p.p.p.s.: Just for your info, from discussions I had elsewhere, I am under the impression that ice won't soon come reopening topics for his maps and mods in this forum (comprising reopening a "WAW 1940" topic in this forum), if we are waiting for that to happen.
p.p.p.p.s.: Waiting for clarifications regarding if "WAW 1940" discussions are in topic here or not (I'd suggest not), I'll go ahead remarking (and giving the readers of this topic the information) that the "WAW 1940" 2.1.1 comes with an important correction in the costs of transports and t-boats (that I set wrongly in the current version), which is particularly critical for the latter, as the 2.1.0 costs make t-boats absolutely inferior purchases (I already said this in the old thread for WAW 1940 in the deprecated Sourceforge forum).
