Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread

Frostion

@Mora I took a look at the v0.1.6 XML and did not find any errors related to your Trolls and Quality Bow problem. (Although I fixed a Gnome problem/typo with Gnomen ranged weapons).

I did a test play through myself, with Trolls, and was lucky enough that he Quality Bow spawned just besides Trolls. I did not see a faulty change of Troll hero stats. It matched what I expected when taking my hero's items and starting stats into account.

I loaded your savegame and took a look. I can see that your hero has the item Horn of Cenarius, and that unit “Gives 5 Friendly Ranged Units +3 Targeting Power”. Like all the other items with similar description (“Friendly Units”) this also applies to the Hero itself. If it was to say “Enemy Ranged Units” it also applies to the enemy Hero. So in your game, the hero had TP 4 + TP 3 from the item.

Friendly Ranged Units is here "AllRangedLandAndAirUnits" that accually mean ALL units able to AA:

<attachment name="supportAttachmentHero-of-Trolls-uses-Horn-of-Cenarius" attachTo="Sian-tsu" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitSupportAttachment" type="unitType">
        <option name="unitType" value="$AllRangedLandAndAirUnits$"/>
        <option name="faction" value="allied"/>
        <option name="side" value="offence:defence"/>
        <option name="dice" value="AAstrength"/>
        <option name="bonus" value="3"/>
        <option name="number" value="5"/>
        <option name="bonusType" value="Horn of Cenarius"/>
    </attachment>

@gr8gamerguy Yes, as ff03k64 says, a savegame can explain a lot

Here is an updated v0.1.61 XML, but it is not with disabled Airways. Its the normal XML warcraft_war_heroes.xml
Open your zip and the "original xml" directory, then drag and drop this file to overwrite. Or delete and redownload the entire map to update

Please keep the test feedback coming!

Mora

Here's situation at the end of 15th turn (v1.6 under engine 2.5, air routes disabled, playing as Troll, all others are AI). Everything runs smoothly. All factions are playing smartly. Tauren invaded islands, some factions even established Watch Towers, which made me happy. Hero's attack roll makes sense. Now, Sian-Tsu has Mystical Scepter and targeted roll of 10 (always hit), which isn't uncommon.
I'll try to use hero in a suicide missions as much as possible, to see if my theory works.
In this and also in my previous game, I noticed that Dwarves are quick to establish navy and smart in making surprise landing, which they do not attempt to reinforce later in the game. On the other hand, Undead don't like to build ships, even when it would make sense. Looking into it, I see that they lack woods. I don't know whether distribution of trees is random in this map.
I would still like to have info about how target selection for targeted attack works.

autosaveBeforeEndTurn.tsvg

gr8gamerguy

@ff03k64
This is the game after 12 rounds. Arthur is already Level 8; now xp per turn seems back to normal. I changed Horde to human-controlled on turn 11.
WoWAlliance.tsvg

Frostion

@gr8gamerguy You got free 100XP per turn with humans, instead of only 10 XP, as you are playing with map version v0.1.5 XML. If you download the map now, it is v0.1.7.

You should also try to play with the newest pre-release of the engine. The AI now can use "Airways" it seems

https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases

bel246

I just played a game as Alliance. I am very impressed how the map has developed. I am glad to see that the Horde is now playable by the AI. I also love to see the AI building factories when needed. Here is what I noticed:

The Information given in the map has improved a lot. Especially knowing what the hero levels do is great. Yet there are still quite a few items without tooltips and I can't figure out what they do. For example: Energy-Shard, Arcanite-Hauberk, Sobi-Mask, Amulet of Accuracy, Moonstone Item etc. The same thing is true for map features like: Gold-Mine, Oil-Well, Brown Worgen Chest, Gold-Smelter etc. The exact amount in a tooltip would be great.
I noticed something weird when attacking map spawned factories (like Manor or Tower). If I capture them they get the maximum amount of raid damage even though I didn't attack with any shots set to bombard. Is that intended? Capturing factories built by players doesn't do that.
That brings me to the next point. 25 PU's to repair a factory seems quite harsh, especially given how easy it is to get enough bombard. Thats a lot more then the average unit I buy (20 for footman). A new factory costs 30 PU's. I can almost build a new one if I don't want to repair and gold is not a problem. I played on AI income of 200% and I could easily outbomb the Troll production by standing in Hammerfall.
This was the first time I played Alliance and I think they are a lot stronger then the Horde. I remembered how difficult it was to get harbours as Horde so a part of my strategy was to deny the Horde ship access and get all those water ressources for myself. This worked very well.
Undead have a long way until they get their harbour. I was able to conquer it with my cavalery faster than they were. Also having access to a harbour a lot earlier as Dwarfs means I could build transport ships and just conquer their coast. Once you have a transport ship and a warship or a flying machine in reach of their harbour the AI just doesn't build ships at all. That is logical since they can only build one and I could easily destroy everything they build.
Tauren is the same idea. Nightelves get ship acces earlier and if you park a transport and a battleship in front of their harbour they won't bother with building ships. It is a little more difficult to do because of the more limited ressources of the night elves but the gains are high.
Orcs are similar to Tauren. Goblins basically start with a harbour and can therefore easily capture a second one. If you can get sea superiority before them they have a hard time taking it back because they are limited to one ship per turn. They have quite a few flying units but here I have another observations. The AI doesn't seem to take into account that they can land flying units on water. I have never seen them do that.
Trolls have a starting harbour and it is hard to deny them access to the sea. They are one of the weaker races ressource wise though and in my game they built just one ship anyway.
The reason why I write about this in length is that the sea has huge amount of ressources, especially food. I have seen the AI build a lot of irregulars which made the game much easier. If you control the sea you also have the advanced tactical option of naval raids. With so many lands to defend it makes the AI split up their armies to be prepared for naval invasions which in turn makes defending and advancing the front line easier.
Balance wise I think it is not fair that all the Alliance factions have air units but not all of the Horde factions. Escpecially when the Horde also suffers a disadvantage at sea. Alliance in general seems a lot stronger than Horde.
The level 3 trap of Ayanna reads: Lays a trap that kills one enemy unit. That sounds like a suicide attack. But actually isn't, you can kill 20 units with one trap if you get lucky with the dice. It effectively is a normal unit with 0/1/0. Free units every turn is very strong in my opinion even if it is only in defense.
Khormanns level 4 reads: Gives one unit +10 defense. The tooltip of the potion itself says this is only for the first battle round which is correct. Maybe make them the same. I only read the level on Khormann and it took me while to figure out what was wrong. The same thing with Arthurs level 3 and 9 and Khormanns level 2.
Frost spell of the gnomes is overpowered. Two big armies facing each other, let's say 30 units each. Marryk comes and throws a frost spell at the other army. Most of this army can't move at all anymore (with the exception of 2+ movement units). I can use my 30 units somewhere else while Marryk just throws a frost spell every round and stun locks 30 units with it.
I still think cav is too easily countered by spearmen. -3/-3 seems a little harsh.
Can Air units target submarines in the first battle round like in nwo?

Thats all I have right now. It has been a pleasure to play the map again and I am glad how it has improved. Keep up the great work!

zlefin

I'm exploring this map. Played one game part way through vs ai; and let the ai just run against itself to see who won (alliance got a clear dominant position ~round 35). Very fascinating use of triggers, and quite pretty.

In the game I played, as Humans, it seemed to take a long time before I was actually reaching any of the enemies. I start quite far from all of them, and there's lots of empty land to grab, so I don't get to engage real foes for a long time.

It seems odd how many of the territories are wholly undefended; it makes the early stage very much about sending out single units just to land grab as much as possible, at least for stuff that's not too near an enemy. And often even then just to grab artifacts.

Which engine versions are needed to have the map work optimally? it says 'use the most recent version', but the most recent ones often have bugs from being in development, and depending on what the map was last updated the current stable version of the client may be fine; it'd be nice if there was a precise engine version specified as what's needed.

It seems weird that regular units generate a 'veteran' currency that gives free veteran units rather than upgrading regular units to veteran ones. It means keeping units alive, so they produce even more units.

zlefin

Found an odd bug, not sure if its in the games xml or in the triplea engine, so reporting here first; I'm using version 2.5.22294 perhaps the issue is because my engine isn't the most recent prerelease.

BugStormGardeUpgrade.tsvg

I have an outpost and a watch tower in my set of items to build.
At StormGarde keep, it won't let me upgrade the watch tower into an outpost (ie I click on Stormgarde keep, and the list of buildables only shows regular troop). However if I build the watch-tower somewhere else, then it WILL let me upgrade the watchtower at Stormgarde keep into an outpost.

It's very odd that it does that, changing what it will allow based on whether an extraneous item is also in the build queue.

REpeating in an even clearer more bug reporty way:
Load save (it is currently in placement phase)
Click on Stormgarde keep.
Note that the list of buildables does not include the outpost.
Click on another province to build the watch-tower
Click on STormgarde keep again
Note that the list of buildables now includes the outpost.

beelee

@zlefin you could try running it with the 1.9 stable and the prerelease as well. See if the behavior is the same.

Frostion

So I have had some time away from the forum because of real life issues and work. But I can see that the Warcraft map has been play-tested regardless of my absence Nice! Thanks for the feedback @bel246 @zlefin. Constructive feedback always motivates a mapmaker to keep on working on and fixing maps! To quickly state what engine is best:

For PvP I would recommend this version:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases/tag/2.6.22436
as it seems to be the last version with the - soon to be removed - “NEXT” and “PREV” unmoved unit buttons. These buttons are very good for ensuring that ALL unmoved units get attention during a player's turn, also allowing the player to shuffle back and forth between units during movement phase. (On a side note, I personally see this upcoming removal as an unnecessary setback for TripleA’s UI and play experience. But I might stand very alone with this opinion.)

For play against the AI, I see this version as best:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases/tag/2.6.22444
as this version (released just after the above) is the first engine with the important AI-update that prevents AI from stacking units in Horde capitals (and other territories with land canal attachments). An issue that always made the AI lose in the long run. Sadly, this engine version is also the first to have the “NEXT” and “PREV” unmoved unit buttons removed.

Q&A:
Anyway, to follow up on the development of this map, I can say that Warcraft War heroes is practically 99% done. The map notes are about 80% done and I am running out of map specific map issues to tackle. Let just try to address some of the recently posted issues:

@bel246 said:
“still quite a few items without tooltips and I can't figure out what they do. For example: Energy-Shard”

I don’t get it. There ARE tooltips for the items? Maybe they are not as self-explanatory as I think? Fore example the energy shard gives 1 Mana resource to the player each round. Perhaps players think that every item does something very special, but this is not the case. A few items are just resource generators that, unlike buildings and territories, can’t be lost to the enemy.

(Factories that are up for grabs) “If I capture them they get the maximum amount of raid damage even though I didn't attack with any shots set to bombard. Is that intended? Capturing factories built by players doesn't do that.”
Yes it is intentional. This is because it would be unrealistic that an enemy would let a fully functional production facility fall into the hands of an opponent. Also, it would be a too strong advantage for a victor to be able to build in a place just captured from the enemy. This rule/map behavior is also stated in the notes of "Bombardment", but not under "Factories", where I guess you might have looked, and where it is perhaps more logical to look

“25 PU's to repair a factory seems quite harsh (…) Thats a lot more then the average unit I buy (20 for footman). A new factory costs 30 PU's.”
Well it is still cheaper than a new factory. Factories are meant to be cheap and destructible, unlike standard WW2 A&A. I hope this will let the “front” be more dynamic and get the players to make choices between bobarding the enemy factories or try to capture them.

“I played Alliance and I think they are a lot stronger then the Horde” “If you can get sea superiority before them they have a hard time taking it back because they are limited to one ship per turn. They have quite a few flying units but here I have another observations. The AI doesn't seem to take into account that they can land flying units on water. I have never seen them do that.” “If you control the sea you also have the advanced tactical option of naval raids”
Yes. The unequal access to sea seems to be a returning problem. I am not sure that the problem is big during Human vs Human play, but the AI clearly has problems handling the situation. I have been thinking of updating all map resources to only give the player 1 resource per turn, not 3. So a fish would give 1 food, not 3, an Oil Rig 1 Oil, not 3 etc. Maybe this would make controlling the sea leas important. However this would not help the AI in regards to tactically exploiting the sea. Any input on how to handle this would be nice.

“its not fair that all the Alliance factions have air units but not all of the Horde factions”
I hope that the unbalance in access to Air Units can be countered by adjusting unit prices and strengths of units. This will be ongoing balancing work.

“The level 3 trap of Ayanna reads: Lays a trap that kills one enemy unit. That sounds like a suicide attack. But actually isn't, you can kill 20 units with one trap if you get lucky with the dice.”
I can’t explain that. The code of the trap should only let it kill 1 enemy and then die if it actually has a hit:

<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="Trap" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
            <option name="defense" value="1"/>
            <option name="isSuicideOnHit" value="true"/>
</attachment>

There is not really any other code attached to the Trap unit. I wonder what could influence the trap?

“Frost spell of the gnomes is overpowered”
Maybe you are right. I guess I have to experience this in action to see it as a problem. I guess if you are not the player with the stuck units, it is just a comical situation But seriously, this is an issue to keep an eye on. My fist thought is, "but this also requires the the gnomen hero to keep pretty stationary and keep casting his Frost Spell at the same territory for the rest of the game."

@zlefin said:
“It seems odd how many of the territories are wholly undefended; it makes the early stage very much about sending out single units just to land grab as much as possible, at least for stuff that's not too near an enemy. And often even then just to grab artifacts.”
Well, this map clearly has inbuilt “stages” of play progression. A player starts out land-grabbing and also fighting lesser AI players, before finally meeting other major players. It was the hope that the player during early game would look at the map and go “that item is a must-have, therefore I ride towards it ASAP”, “That building is essential to reach before the enemy gets it” or “OK, with those buildings at my disposal, I will chose this and that Origin Skill”. There is a lot of randomness affecting early game, but I hope that it is ok and works.

“It seems weird that regular units generate a 'veteran' currency that gives free veteran units rather than upgrading regular units to veteran ones”
I struggled and still struggle with how to best implement a veterans and elites system that both made sense and could work for real. I did at one point want to have regular units upgrade to higher tier units by placing the upgrade on them, but I “dumbed” down the system for the current one. Honestly I can’t remember why, but I guess that I reached a wall (of a nature that I can’t remember. Probably a practical hindrance?) in regards to making the concept into reality. If anyone has an example of a working system of another map, please point at it.

“Found an odd bug … I have an outpost and a watch tower in my set of items to build. At StormGarde keep, it won't let me upgrade the watch tower into an outpost”
I managed to load your save game, and I see what you explain. But I have no explanation why one can’t have both types of units in the bank (a simple factory unit + an upgrade unit) and therefor not be able to place the upgrade. It would be cool if a developer could investigate. If I get around to it, I will at some point make an official bug report. But before this it would be nice if a person more experienced in XML could maybe identify if this is actually an XML or engine problem. (???)

bel246

Hey Frostion,

sorry for the late reply. I don't know why, but I don't get to see the tooltips on many items. I was really surprised to see your picture. For me it looks like this:

I tried it one the latest stable release and on one of the prereleases: 2.6.22453