[Open] 2 bugs in Civil War map

redrum

@Ondis Thoughts:

There does seem to be some inconsistency around what infrastructure is destroyed/downgraded. I'm not 100% sure how its supposed to be. @wirkey Any thoughts on what needs fixed around this? This line is included towards the end of the notes: "Infrastructure captured from sympathetic or hostile neutrals never downgrade."
Torpedoes seem to work fine and here is a LL 100 torpedoes vs 100 ships where it seems to properly kill 25 (3/12 * 100): test.tsvg

wirkey

@redrum all resource producing and defensive infrastructure should be downgraded upon capture:
Supply Center->Depot->Storehouse->destroyed
Industrial Center->Mill->Foundry->destroyed
Civilian Economy X->CE x-1->. . . ->CE 1 -> destroyed
Fortification->Entrenchment->Breastwork->destroyed
All recruiting industry (RC X, Paradeground/Barracks/Drill Camp, Shipyard, Railyard) are destroyed

But yeah, the gamenotes say that infrastructure in hostile neutrals is not downgraded. Not sure if this counts for recruiting infrastructure, too.

redrum

@wirkey Right, I think the main question is for hostile neutrals. I guess what needs fixed is that some hostile neutral infrastructure appears to be downgraded/destroyed when captured and it shouldn't be. I don't think there is any starting neutral recruiting infrastructure so those probably don't matter.

Cernel

I'd summarize the matter in this post:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/906/civil-war-units-issues
and lock this topic (to avoid duplication).

So, once the bug reporting appears reasonably stable, a single push can be made to hopefully solve all known collected issues, instead of having them spread amongst multiple topics.

But leaving this up to the admins already involved in this discussion.

wirkey

@redrum actually, there are quite a few neutral territories with Recruitment Center (Frankfort and Louisville for the Union, Bowling Green and Stanford and Mill Springs for the Rebels just to name some).

redrum

@wirkey Ah ok. Well I lean towards making the infrastructure capture rules as consistent and simple as possible so would lean towards having those work the same way as the rest.

Would you agree with fixing it so when hostile neutrals are captured that none of the infrastructure is destroyed/downgraded? I think that gameplay wise is probably the most interesting as well so that both sides want to prioritize the neutrals early game.

@Cernel Well, it doesn't matter to me which thread we use. I'd just like to come to a concise list of changes we want to make as that was the issue with the past thread.

Cernel

In case any admins want to consolidate there, feel free to edit my first post at:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/906/civil-war-units-issues
(I thought this was obvious)

wirkey

@redrum

@redrum said in 2 bugs in Civil War map:

@wirkey Ah ok. Well I lean towards making the infrastructure capture rules as consistent and simple as possible so would lean towards having those work the same way as the rest.

Would you agree with fixing it so when hostile neutrals are captured that none of the infrastructure is destroyed/downgraded? I think that gameplay wise is probably the most interesting as well so that both sides want to prioritize the neutrals early game.

I think I remember a conversation I had with pulicat. It was his intention to keep infrastructure intact if the territory was taken without a fight and destroyed if a battle took place.
If we don't want to do that (or it's not possible) I'm fine either destroying/downgrading infrastructure in hostile neutrals or keep it

Cernel

@wirkey That is definitely not possible in a clean/direct way. But if pullicat wanted that to depend on battling, isn't this contradictory with the fact that if you take a neutral hostile with battle it says that nothing downgrade. If the matter would be waging actual war, why to make an exception for hostile neutrals you fight just the same way as your enemies?

redrum

@Cernel Yeah, probably best to consolidate to the original thread since it already has some of the details around some bugs. I'd like to try to create a concise list of things that need changed in the first post before making the fixes.

wirkey

@Cernel said in 2 bugs in Civil War map:

@wirkey That is definitely not possible in a clean/direct way. But if pullicat wanted that to depend on battling, isn't this contradictory with the fact that if you take a neutral hostile with battle it says that nothing downgrade. If the matter would be waging actual war, why to make an exception for hostile neutrals you fight just the same way as your enemies?

True, maybe he thought battle in those territories wouldn't be so intense or maybe I just made this up from my memory. Haven't seen or hears from him for years, unfortunately.
As I said, if that is not possible, I'm fine with either solution.

Ondis

Alright I've replicated the bug.
Uploading the save file. Don't know what I did before (I'm pretty sure I replicated it with 99 ships too but who knows) but here's the deal with the Torpedoes according to the save I will upload: The Fewer enemy ships, the lower the chance of hitting more ships.

99 Torpedoes will consistently destroy 25 ships, yes, if there are 99 enemy ships there. But 99 torpedoes will destroy only a couple of ships if there are say 5 or 6 ships there. They will never destroy them all.

Uploading save.

Bug 3 Fort Riley cannot be reached from Council City in 1 move. Similar to the bug where the units in one of the classic/revised modes in North America won't move as expected. Probably can't be fixed easily. (North Western lands)

Possible? Bug 4 I think there might be a bug with generals and stacking as production facilities but I'll double check later.

IMO Recruitment centers are always destroyed and should be destroyed in hostile neutral territories as well. I don't count those as infrastructure tbh. Let's not argue the semantics though! Centers are obviously some form of infrastructure but if there is anything that shouldn't be remaining it's them. They also can't be built in foreign lands.

I'm for keeping all the initial infrastructure except for the above mentioned centers in hostile and non hostile territories, just fix the bug with the confederates not getting to keep the same stuff as the unionists!

Download the save, check all battles: Bugged Torpedoes.tsvg

Feel free to move or merge my replies here.

redrum

@Ondis That is the intention. You must have the same number or more ships than torpedoes for them all to fire. So if you say have only 5 ships then only 5 torpedoes will fire.

General bonuses aren't meant to stack on the same units. The idea is that you should try to spread out your generals across the front and build a variety of units not just mass the same type.

Ondis

@redrum
Hiya

General bonuses do stack in combat in all instances, just the production doesn't seem to. It doesn't even stack with production facilities so a barracks and a general won't be able to upgrade 6 units...I think. Im not in a position to try right now tho.

About the Torpedoes, that is written nowhere in the notes and must be made clearer imo! All that is written is that "more torpedoes to sink more ships" meaning 1 torpedo doesn't fire on all the ships like in the case of say AA in revised or artillery in Civil War ( that fires on 12 targets ). Are you sure it is the intention? Why?

Granted with the manpower mechanic the torpedoes could become over-powered at some point with about 48+4 initial possible at most at 24 turns equating to about 13 ships. But by turn 13 you should have more than 13 ships or you are to have already smashed the confederate fleet or lost the sea. And then those torpedoes are just sitting ducks/wasted supplies.

redrum

@Ondis Correct, the territory takes the largest production facility/unit as the max production and doesn't add them together. This tends to promote better game play as its better to spread out your generals and production facilities in different territories and not stack them.

Torpedo description could probably be improved a bit but I do believe they are working as intended. The idea is they are a cheap cost-effective unit to help the confederates defend some of their ports as the Union will eventually have a larger fleet. You want to in theory build as many torpedoes as the Union has nearby ships and not any more since then they wouldn't be able to fire.

Ondis

About Torpedoes

I mean it makes some gameplay sense but no other unit in the game, on any map, works like this and from a purely logical/consistency kind of perspective it is just silly.

But sometimes you gotta compromise with that to get a working map.
Still to me it makes Torpedoes near useless then.

You want Torpedoes to delay the enemy advance.
If I can only kill 1 ship then I'm just loosing money on it for every delay.

So I lose a gunboat + 4 x 2 in supplies and 4 in money for every enemy ship I kill in a stack and that's in the best case scenario, to hit an ironclad I need 8x2. Complete wast of resources imo. Only good they could have is in a huge stack battle but the intention in the mississippi delta seems to be to delay the enemy, not fight him. With all those sparsely placed torpedoes.

Both the Torpedoes and the Generals need some clarification. There's also an unusual case in St Louise which starts with both a drill camp and a barracks! I wonder what the intentions are there since the notes clearly state that is not allowed, lol.

wirkey

@Ondis said in 2 bugs in Civil War map:

There's also an unusual case in St Louise which starts with both a drill camp and a barracks! I wonder what the intentions are there since the notes clearly state that is not allowed, lol.

The drill camp in St. Louis has no implications at all. I think they are just a leftover from the days when barracks could only upgrade militias. It could therefor be removed in future releases.

Cernel

@wirkey If you know of other minor things like this one, maybe make a list. Just a suggestion, in case the map will get a fix at some point.

wirkey

@Cernel
ok, here are the issues I remember I once had (not sure if they are solved):

shipyards should be placable in every territory worth 3 or in any territory that had one at the beginning of the game
newly build shipyards not building/upgrading any ships (see Bowling Green, Cumberland River) in the attached game cw Ondis vs wirkey.tsvg
military victory as in the game notes is not the same as by the notifications in game (to get the note of a military victory you have to control one union city at the end of the round, while according to game notes you only have to take it.)
Union can't place subs (at least not in Philly/New York/South Jersey)

I'll keep that list updated as soon as I remember/encounter more issues.

Edited 01/02/19, 8:50p

Ondis

There is an additional issue with forts. They only remove -2 in attack vs General supported Elite Cavalry, nothing else, as it is the only stat difference compared to a entrenchment. Otherwise it's only -1, making the marginally better than Entrenchments for the cost of an expensive Artillery.

Battle calculator doesn't seem to be able to account for the weaker bombardment that forts are supposed to provide either.

There are quite a few descriptions that need work.

edit: @Wirkey just edit if shipyard production isn't working in our game, as in place them elsewhere then move them there.

Take note though that shipyards as any other production facility are only placable in in Union territory for you as an Union player as per notes "Resources are produced from upgradable infrastructure units located in your territories, not from territory values. Territory values represent the historical population density of the territory, not PU production. Some infrastructure requires a minimum territory value to be placed. Union manpower and training infrastructure can only be built in original Union territory or Pro-Union territory. Confederate manpower and training infrastructure can only be built in original Confederate territory or Pro-Confederate territory. Each territory may contain only one of each of the folloing categories of infrastructure:"

This includes shipyard and railyards imo.
Edit2: Though I may be wrong since "training infrastructure" is explicitly defined as well. Where are you unable to place shipyards? I guess its in confederate territory?