Twelve Clans - Official Thread
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Hello, everyone!
I was the primary tester for Twelve Clans during development. This is @Michael-Hoover's first time working with xml and my first time trying to seriously test a game and make it as good as we can.
@Cernel those are some good observations. I agree with you completely when it comes to a no unit cap version. I was against capping the units when I first started to test the game myself, actually. But the more that we discussed it and tested it out the more that making caps seemed like a good solution to the AI problems. Our issues with the AI may be fixable in other ways. But caps were the best solution at the time given our limited experience. I also agree that more documentation would be helpful. Please continue to give more feedback as you notice things. Any suggestions are appreciated and will be taken into consideration for future updates.
Hopefully, as the game gets more people playing we can take all of everyone's feedback and improve the experience.
Here is some background on why we settled on the way that the units in Twelve Clans are capped and some of the problems that we noticed during testing.
We noticed that without a cap the AI would only ever buy certain units. They loved Ashigaru in the Alpha, when they were the same as the Bushi (this is before the Bushi existed). To solve that we decided to make the Ashigaru not purchasable. This was inspired by the Dragon War Auxiliary units. Then the AI had a new favorite unit the Ronin. We tried re-balancing the unit stats and prices, but they always seemed to buy tons of the same units. This was especially problematic with Ronin, as they leave after one round (meant to represent mercenaries only following coin) In an attempt to fix this we decided to implement caps.
With the caps in place the AI started purchasing more varieties of units and seemed to be more fair and competent. I am not sure that the AI fully understands that the Ronin leave after one round though because they make some questionable moves sometimes. But it is a lot better than it was prior.
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@NetHackFan1006 Thanks I forgot about the AI purchasing hijinks when I was thinking through @Cernel's observations last night!
I also forgot to mention that the bonuses provided by the various units are not stackable with duplicate units, i.e. two nobori does not give +2 to all units, etc...
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@NetHackFan1006 said in Twelve Clans - Official Thread:
Hello, everyone!
I was the primary tester for Twelve Clans during development. This is @Michael-Hoover's first time working with xml and my first time trying to seriously test a game and make it as good as we can.
Hi. I'm not sure, at this point, is this game meant primarily as a solo experience with the AI or more like Feudal Japan, with a few human players and rest to AI? Or maybe preferably a 1v1, one power each, rest to the AI? Talking about the main game, not the 4 mods.
@Cernel those are some good observations. I agree with you completely when it comes to a no unit cap version. I was against capping the units when I first started to test the game myself, actually. But the more that we discussed it and tested it out the more that making caps seemed like a good solution to the AI problems. Our issues with the AI may be fixable in other ways. But caps were the best solution at the time given our limited experience. I also agree that more documentation would be helpful. Please continue to give more feedback as you notice things. Any suggestions are appreciated and will be taken into consideration for future updates.
Hopefully, as the game gets more people playing we can take all of everyone's feedback and improve the experience.
Here is some background on why we settled on the way that the units in Twelve Clans are capped and some of the problems that we noticed during testing.
We noticed that without a cap the AI would only ever buy certain units. They loved Ashigaru in the Alpha, when they were the same as the Bushi (this is before the Bushi existed). To solve that we decided to make the Ashigaru not purchasable. This was inspired by the Dragon War Auxiliary units. Then the AI had a new favorite unit the Ronin. We tried re-balancing the unit stats and prices, but they always seemed to buy tons of the same units. This was especially problematic with Ronin, as they leave after one round (meant to represent mercenaries only following coin) In an attempt to fix this we decided to implement caps.
I guess you are referring to a state with very different stats from now, as, with the current ones, the AI (and everyone) will prefer Bushi over Ronin for sure, even without taking the Ronin removal, and anything else, into account.
With the caps in place the AI started purchasing more varieties of units and seemed to be more fair and competent. I am not sure that the AI fully understands that the Ronin leave after one round though because they make some questionable moves sometimes. But it is a lot better than it was prior.
Ah. This game's unit balanced was made looking at the AI purchase choices (so it's all @redrum fault:face_with_tongue: ). I should have guessed. It is just so much of a thing I would not do that I didn't even consider the possibility, even though we did have had several other mapmakers doing the same.
However, I'll have to agree that, for what I believe it can understand, the AI is purchasing quite correctly, in this one, as I'm seeing that, on the first round, the AI buys mostly Bushi and a few of Teppo, Kyudoka and Nobori, and this is what I would do too, if I could only see what I believe the AI does (that support to 15 units is so good that the Nobori are already the best complement to the Bushi even if they would not be able to dump on the map 2 Ashigaru each round).
So, also based on what you are saying, it might be not entirely the AI fault, this one time, as I'm not sure you realize how much "fodder" based your production choices actually are. If I couldn't understand the Nobori specials (which I'm pretty sure the AI doesn't either), I would certainly agree (with the AI) that buying almost only Bushi is the way to go, here (the "fodder" unit, once you exclude the Ashigaru).
Basically, once you take caps into account, I would buy almost only Nobori and a very few Samurai (if any) until I hit the Nobori cap. Then I would buy mostly Samurai and a few Bushi and Ninja until I hit the Samurai cap, unless I'm short on Ashigaru, in which case I'll buy mostly Bushi until I hit the Bushi cap (of course it greatly depends on how many Ashigaru I lose, meanwhile). Then mostly either Bushi or Samurai and a few Ninja until I hit either the Bushi or Samurai cap (assuming I've already hit one or the other). And so on and so forth, Ronin coming into question virtually only when I cannot buy anything else.
Actually, I missed the fact that the Ronin all go away at the start of your next "Purchase Units" phase (maybe because I never even considered buying any of them (have not played long enough to hit enough caps for that)) (also, it would make the only sense, at this point, they are removed at the start of the Non Combat Move phase, instead, if I'm understanding correctly they are removed wherever). This is another thing that really needs to be documented in notes. Also, I'm not sure if you are aware you can have custom tooltips and also automatic tooltips with some custom description attached at the end, if you so prefer (you could had a line telling that Ronin are usable only till the end of the next turn). I guess I should have imagined since did you borrow the concept from Feudal Japan Warlords? I notice only now that the game explains the Ronin, and the units in general, on its own top-left corner. This is pretty much the problem with virtual boardgames, where you usually don't see the whole board at once. Maybe it's the TripleA program fault, that should rather start the game zoomed so much to have all the board on view at once, then letting you zoom in where you want to.
I guess the unit information on top-left should specify how many units the Nobori actually supports (15), as well as how many Ashigaru recruits (2).
In my book, the Ronin was an underpowered unit without even taking into account the fact that it is removed (which I completely overlooked). I'm not sure if I'm overlooking anything, but, just for the basic stats, a Bushi is 3/3 cost 3 and a Ronin is 5/5 cost 5, thus a Ronin has the same relative power of a Bushi but almost half the hitpoints (the terrible swordman and very good peltasts of traditional 270BC Macedonia come to mind). On top of that, you have the virtually granted "HeroBonus" that, by raising everyone by 1 power, makes the Ronin into a truly terrible unit, as, then, you have Bushi at 4/4 cost 3 and Ronin at 6/6 cost 5, thus the Roning being inferior both (!) in power and hitpoints to the Bushi, for the same cost. But all of this is even completely overshadowed by the fact that getting Nobori and Samurai, thus eventually having a huge army of Ashigaru supported by a few Nobori and Samurai is way better than going for combining Bushi and Ronin.
Taking into account that Ronin are even removed after 1 round of service, then it is definitely the worst unit in the game.
Of course, having hard caps "fixes" all issues, as you eventually hit one cap after the other, and start buying the unbuyable.
Anyways, taking into account the "caps" fix (definitely not a fan of that, but of course it works), I would say this game has objectively no issues, and can stay in good quality, already. I've not tried out the other 4 mods that come with it.
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Thanks again for the feedback @Cernel. I actually did not know you could customize the tooltips (I thought the info was set based on the xml unit attachement stats), but I will check that out for sure!
I should probably also point out that the Ronin have no purchase cap at all. So let's say you are getting into the endgame and you have a max army (kinda like the old shogun board game - there was a set size to how many troops you could have). And that max army is standing on a 6 PU territory, if you have 50 PUs you can buy 10 Ronin and place them on that 6 PU territory. I don't know if that would change your opinion of them at all?
Just earlier we were discussing some potential update changes and I will be sure to reference back to these posts to factor in your opinions!
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@Michael-Hoover The Ronin do technically have a cap , but it is quite high (max for xml?). You can purchase 99 Ronin per turn. And you can place 99 Ronin per turn.
Phrasing what you said in a more TripleA terminology way is, Ronin are considered constructable, so the value of the territory and factories have no relevance on them.
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@Cernel said in Twelve Clans - Official Thread:
Hi. I'm not sure, at this point, is this game meant primarily as a solo experience with the AI or more like Feudal Japan, with a few human players and rest to AI? Or maybe preferably a 1v1, one power each, rest to the AI? Talking about the main game, not the 4 mods.
We tried to balance the game in a way that it can be played solo or with any number of other players. That is why the AI is very important. As if the AI is acting dumb that makes playing solo not challenging at all.
I guess you are referring to a state with very different stats from now, as, with the current ones, the AI (and everyone) will prefer Bushi over Ronin for sure, even without taking the Ronin removal, and anything else, into account.
There have been a lot of changes to Twelve Clans during the alpha. A lot of units either were not in the game or their stats were very different to what they are now. This affected how the AI purchased and used them. None of these changes were documented because the game was still in Pre-Alpha/Alpha.
Actually, I missed the fact that the Ronin all go away at the start of your next "Purchase Units" phase (maybe because I never even considered buying any of them (have not played long enough to hit enough caps for that)) (also, it would make the only sense, at this point, they are removed at the start of the Non Combat Move phase, instead, if I'm understanding correctly they are removed wherever). This is another thing that really needs to be documented in notes. Also, I'm not sure if you are aware you can have custom tooltips and also automatic tooltips with some custom description attached at the end, if you so prefer (you could had a line telling that Ronin are usable only till the end of the next turn). I guess I should have imagined since did you borrow the concept from Feudal Japan Warlords? I notice only now that the game explains the Ronin, and the units in general, on its own top-left corner. This is pretty much the problem with virtual boardgames, where you usually don't see the whole board at once. Maybe it's the TripleA program fault, that should rather start the game zoomed so much to have all the board on view at once, then letting you zoom in where you want to.
You are correct, no matter where the Ronin units are located, they are all removed at the next purchase step. We'll look at improving the tips and notes.
The inspirations for Twelve Clans was mainly Samurai Warriors, Dragon War, and Shogun. Samurai Warriors mainly, that is why there is a ton of unit build up, which some people don't like. I wasn't a fan of that at first myself lol. But you get used to it and it is more "over the top" like Samurai Warriors is that way.
I guess the unit information on top-left should specify how many units the Nobori actually supports (15), as well as how many Ashigaru recruits (2).
The unit information of the board is a little vague and not complete. I think it was more of an issue of not wanting to take up too much space on the corner. We will look into fleshing it out more.
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@NetHackFan1006 I think I'd leave the Ronin without a cap at all, if all other units have one.
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@Cernel From what I understand, the Ronin had to have a cap to give them the "is construction" property. The cap might be a problem if you hold most territories and or save your PUs to buy all Ronin. Realistically, no one should be able to build more than 99 per turn. A player needs 495 PUs to purchase 99 Ronin in one turn.
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@NetHackFan1006 said in Twelve Clans - Official Thread:
@Cernel From what I understand, the Ronin had to have a cap to give them the "is construction" property. That is why @Michael-Hoover made the cap 99. The cap might be a problem if you hold most territories and or save your PUs.
No, those are two completely unrelated caps. You can remove the "99" one, while keeping the other one.
As far as the construction cap goes, TripleA obliges you setting a cap there, and doesn't allow you actually to set infinite, correct, but you can set 1 million or whatever, so, in practice, infinite is virtually possible.
However, and this is what I meant and suggest to do, you can also use the "Unlimited Constructions" property, though that is actually not setting it to infinite, either, but to 10000, but only as long as (in the best naming hack TripleA traditions) the "type" name doesn't end in "structure".
However, the construction cap is a zone stack limit (neither a max units limit nor a production limit).
Long story short, you can just remove the "99" build cap, set the construction caps to 1 (both) and have "Unlimited Constructions" true while being sue the Ronin construction name type doesn't end in "structure", if you want to have no caps for them (in practice, they will be capped at 10000, but this is just a TripleA hack).
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@Cernel Interesting. I wonder if removing the Ronin cap would affect the AI. It's something we can try out.
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Update 1.1 has been uploaded:
This update adds the sounds and music that I originally wanted to have for the initial release....
The next update forthcoming will feature expanded documentation and tweaks each clan to give them a more unique feel and play, hopefully adding a little more balance as well, although I do like the fact that some clans are inherently harder to play...
If anyone has any suggestions please fire away!
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Update 1.2 is well underway with expanded documentation, some minor sound and graphical tweaks, additional sound bites for the starting clan leaders, and a clan specialty system to give each clan a slightly different play style.
I also wanted to point out for @Cernel that we have removed all unit caps except on Nobori, and to keep the AI purchasing in line several of the units' cost and/or attack/defense have been modified, hopefully bringing things more into balance. With any luck I should be able to roll it out this weekend or shortly thereafter :flexed_biceps:
Stay tuned...
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Update 1.2 has been uploaded:
- More sounds and music
- Expanded Documentation
- Clan Advantages
- Ronin upkeep (rather than having the ronin for one round only, they now stick around but cost 2 PUs per round per ronin as an upkeep value)
- No Unit caps (except on Nobori)
- Modified unit stats and costs for balancing
- Traitor tech added (if a vassal switches sides too many times they will be dubbed a traitor and can be destroyed)
- Minor bug fixes/display errors
Feedback is much appreciated!
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@Michael-Hoover If 3 units have the same cost and one is 2/4, another 3/3 and another 4/2, the one that is 3/3 is next to useless (underpowered). A 2/4 unit combined with a 4/2 unit will be always better than two 3/3 units.
Of course, once you take the "national advantages" into consideration, if you give +1 offence to Bushi, and nothing to anyone else, then Teppo are absolutely useless for purchase, while, if you give +1 defence to Bushi, and nothing to anyone else, then Kyudoka are absolutely useless for purchase. If only Teppo or Kyudoka get any bonus, then Bushi are even more useless for purchase, naturally (and singularly useless if the bonus is on the offence of the Kyudoka or the defence of the Teppo).
No idea why, for example, in case of Chosokabe, you kept the Bushi as a purchasable unit? I'm sure you relize that the Teppo has 4 offence, instead of 3, for the Bushi, while all other values are exactly the same (am I overlooking anything?), making the Bushi abosolutely non-purchasable, singularly, once the caps are gone. I'm assuming the Bushi is still there for no particular reasons? By the way, the notes say that the value increase is for the offence, instead (well, it actually says "Offfense").
These are not the only issues with the current production frontiers.
My suggestion, get rid of any "National Advantages", and have the same units, with all the same values, for everyone, at least until you feel confident with those (just a suggestion to make things easier for you, and still wondering if there might be anything I'm missing).
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@Cernel Thanks for the feedback!
I must admit I didn't give a whole lot of thought into the [2/4 + 4/2] > [3/3 + 3/3] argument. I was looking at it from an offense vs defense perspective, i.e. buy more Teppo if you are getting aggressive or buy more kyudoka to turtle up and defend. Looking at the percentages though I do see your point and will have a think on that for a bit.
I didn't remove any units from the frontiers just because I thought it would look weird. Obviously certain clans would have no reason to purchase certain units given the bonuses but I couldn't bring myself to not allow them to be available.
The units were modified so that nobori only increase ashigaru defense (except the Oda Nobori do +1/+1) and the samurai only increase ashigaru offense (except the Azai samuari do +1/+1) as part of the clan advantages theme.
I also believe the lowering of cost has helped balance them out, as without caps the AI does seem to purchase a variety of units (leaning toward their advantages of course).
Thanks for pointing out the typo. I went ahead and fixed that so if you want you can pull it again that'll be corrected. I also thought i had replaced the chart in the upper left corner but apparently what got released was the old chart, so I fixed that as well.
If you see anything else please let me know. Thanks for all your suggestions too, it is much appreciated.
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@Michael-Hoover said in Twelve Clans - Official Thread:
I didn't remove any units from the frontiers just because I thought it would look weird.
Well, weird for weird, to me it looks also weird that you have two couples of factions that, for example, start with a 3/3 unit upgraded defensively to 3/4 or a 2/4 unit upgraded offensively to 3/4, ending up with the exactly same frontier, once you omit the strictly worse units, but in name only. But this is not an issue, so I didn't mention it, to keep it short (and since my suggestion was to set aside the national advantages, anyway). What I mean is, in the example, Chosokabe has exactly the same usable frontier as Uesugi, beside the facts that the first one has a 3/3 unit never to buy and the second one has a 4/2 unit never to buy.
Obviously certain clans would have no reason to purchase certain units given the bonuses but I couldn't bring myself to not allow them to be available.
I see your point of view, but, for example, if I'm in WW2, nothing stops me from producing "pikemen" (and the English actually thought about it), but, if the "pikemen" unit would be something that I never want actually to purchase, then better not having the ability to do so. Really, leaving in the frontier something that the player is assumed never to buy is not sound, but this is just a minor annoyance, I suppose (having a unit that you need keep ignoring).
Thanks for pointing out the typo. I went ahead and fixed that so if you want you can pull it again that'll be corrected.
Actually, the typo was a side note. The matter is that it says "Improved Teppo Offense", while it should say "Improved Teppo Defense".
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@Cernel Would you suggest changing the dice system to allow for more variance in units? As with a d12 system I don't know how much we can change stats around from how they are now. Do you have any stat change or PU change suggestions instead of removing units from the map?
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@NetHackFan1006 I would strive to avoid going anywhere above a d12 system, but, of course, the higher the dice sides the easier to find solutions. Also in the moment the d12 is flavour for these kinda games (because of the boardgames), I think you should better stick with it.
Honestly, it would be very hard even for me to come up with a balanced system that keeps every unit worthwhile for everyone while having a mostly single value boost national advantage system in place for 12 different powers. And I'm not even going to think how to, then, deal with a requirement to work with any AI too.
As far as the basic units go, if the "national advantages" would not exist (everyone having exactly the same frontier), I could furnish a full set of balanced values, but I don't think either me or you want me to do that. This is your game, after all, not my mod of it.
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Actually, the typo was a side note. The matter is that it says "Improved Teppo Offense", while it should say "Improved Teppo Defense".
I'll get that fixed shortly...thanks! Somehow I completely missed that
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Update 1.3 should be out soon. This update will add clan objectives for bonus PUs, tweaks to the Bushi unit, and some additional graphical/audio modifications
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