Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?
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@Panther said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
The rules clearly state that AA fire is executed before the first round of combat (of the General Combat seqence).
Submarines fire either during step 2 (no enemy destroyer present) and/or step 4-5 (enemy destroyer present) of the General Combat sequence.Let's please all not forget that TripleA is a program based primarily on v1 (Classic) rules, that I believe should always apply as default, while a set of properties should exist to implement other rules sets.
Meaning that if someone is making working something by v3~5 rules generally ( @Trevan when I say v3~5 rules, I comprise the first and second editions of Europe/Pacific/Global 1940 too), that is wrong if such rules are not the same for each of v1, v2 and v2 LHTR, if relevant.
For example, in v2 LHTR both the AA fire and the Submarines fire happen during the (same) "Conduct Opening Fire" step, thus I assume should have to be regarded as simultaneous. The casualties selected during such step are also removed all together, during the "Remove Opening Fire Casualties" step, unless a destroyer is present on the opposite side.
So, here, the first thing we should do is asking how this should work for v2 basic (Revised OOB), which is the first game with the kind of destroyers we are looking for (Classic 3rd edition, which is supported by TripleA too, has destroyer units too), then expanding it to all other rules sets. Shouldn't we?
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I agree with Panther, but if it's labor intensive to do, I think it would be fine either way. It would basically just skip over the unused step.
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@Cernel said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
@Panther said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
The rules clearly state that AA fire is executed before the first round of combat (of the General Combat seqence).
Submarines fire either during step 2 (no enemy destroyer present) and/or step 4-5 (enemy destroyer present) of the General Combat sequence.Let's please all not forget that TripleA is a program based primarily on v1 (Classic) rules, that I believe should always apply as default, while a set of properties should exist to implement other rules sets.
Meaning that if someone is making working something by v3~5 rules generally ( @Trevan when I say v3~5 rules, I comprise the first and second editions of Europe/Pacific/Global 1940 too), that is wrong if such rules are not the same for each of v1, v2 and v2 LHTR, if relevant.
For example, in v2 LHTR both the AA fire and the Submarines fire happen during the (same) "Conduct Opening Fire" step, thus I assume should have to be regarded as simultaneous. The casualties selected during such step are also removed all together, during the "Remove Opening Fire Casualties" step, unless a destroyer is present on the opposite side.
So, here, the first thing we should do is asking how this should work for v2 basic (Revised OOB), which is the first game with the kind of destroyers we are looking for (Classic 3rd edition, which is supported by TripleA too, has destroyer units too), then expanding it to all other rules sets. Shouldn't we?
I don't believe the situation I'm dealing with exists in any of those rule sets. Can any AA unit in v2 LHTR target a destroyer? Or anything other than air? Since this code change will really affect only custom games, does it have to follow v2 LHTR, or v1, v3, etc?
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@Trevan Are we not always working with analogies to the rules (if not definitely unwanted by the map maker)? IMHO we do.
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
@Cernel said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
@Panther said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
The rules clearly state that AA fire is executed before the first round of combat (of the General Combat seqence).
Submarines fire either during step 2 (no enemy destroyer present) and/or step 4-5 (enemy destroyer present) of the General Combat sequence.Let's please all not forget that TripleA is a program based primarily on v1 (Classic) rules, that I believe should always apply as default, while a set of properties should exist to implement other rules sets.
Meaning that if someone is making working something by v3~5 rules generally ( @Trevan when I say v3~5 rules, I comprise the first and second editions of Europe/Pacific/Global 1940 too), that is wrong if such rules are not the same for each of v1, v2 and v2 LHTR, if relevant.
For example, in v2 LHTR both the AA fire and the Submarines fire happen during the (same) "Conduct Opening Fire" step, thus I assume should have to be regarded as simultaneous. The casualties selected during such step are also removed all together, during the "Remove Opening Fire Casualties" step, unless a destroyer is present on the opposite side.
So, here, the first thing we should do is asking how this should work for v2 basic (Revised OOB), which is the first game with the kind of destroyers we are looking for (Classic 3rd edition, which is supported by TripleA too, has destroyer units too), then expanding it to all other rules sets. Shouldn't we?
I don't believe the situation I'm dealing with exists in any of those rule sets. Can any AA unit in v2 LHTR target a destroyer? Or anything other than air? Since this code change will really affect only custom games, does it have to follow v2 LHTR, or v1, v3, etc?
This is true for all rulesets and all basic games all the same. As far as custom games go, you can have a Revised custom game in which a unit is able to AA fire on a destroyer just as much as a Global 1940 one doing the same.
Obviously, to me, it should follow whatever rules set that custom game is based upon.
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
Here's what the UI shows when a destroyer is present:
@Panther Do you agree that this is incorrect for Global 1940, in the case of Germans submarines attacking British destroyers? The Germans submarines should not fire during any "first strike units fire" step, but just during the regular attack step. Am I correct to point out that this image is displaying the v2 behaviour, not the v3~5 (Global 1940) one, for the case?
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@Cernel Yes, and I remember that the combat sequence logic has been subject to some Github issues in the past.
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https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/1645
for example.
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I can tell you that if you somehow create a map with v2 LHTR ruleset (not sure how this is done) with an AA unit that can hit submarine, then the AA fire will happen before the submarine fires and if the AA hits the submarine, the submarine will not be able to fire. So the engine doesn't allow you to create a v2 LHTR game where both AA and subs fire at the same time.
But ignoring that issue, if the rule set allows the AA to fire before the subs and the rule set allows destroyers to block the subs "first strike/sneak attack/silent kill/whatever it is called" and the AA hits and removes the destroyer from battle, should the remaining steps act like the destroyer is still present or should they be changed to act like the destroyer is not present?
It sounds like both @Panther and @beelee agree that the steps after the AA phase should act as if the destroyer is no longer present.
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@Trevan Then, in my opinion, you should reformulate your question as to clarify that you are asking for an answer only for the v3~5 case (postponing the issue of TripleA generally applying such rules sets to v1~2 too, for all relevant elements, if this is currently the case).
Still, this would have in the way the inconsistencies that I've pointed out (mostly that the behaviour is to keep first strike casualties in battle, that is how destroyers work in v2, but not in v3 and following rules sets).
So far, it seems to me that the TripleA program is incorrectly applying v2 destroyers rules to v3~5 too and incorrectly applying v3~5 AA fire rules to v2 too. If this is the case, you are at risk of ending up creating a spurious solution for a rules set that is substantially a mash-up of different ones (the risk would be averted only if the conclusion would just happen to be the same in all cases).
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
It sounds like both @Panther and @beelee agree that the steps after the AA phase should act as if the destroyer is no longer present.
That is my opinion for v3+ games.
In v2 AA fire is totally messed up however, so I am not sure whether other issues should maybe be addressed before. -
@Panther I think what should be done here is answering for 3 cases:
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What should happen under v2 LHTR rules (then see if v2 OOB is different).
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What should happen under v3~5 rules.
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What should happen if we would have a rules set in which the AA fire is by v3~5 rules but the destroyer anti-submarines ability is by v2 rules (which is what seems to be the current TripleA behaviour, maybe). I don't actually know if this point is even possible to be answered, and would rather suggest the basis being fixed as to work properly, before answering the question at this topic (so that we don't have to answer point 3, maybe (unless the program would still allow mapmakers to do such a mix, of course)).
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@Cernel So, here it is my take.
The situation is having submarines defending against an attacking force comprising also destroyers, the defending force also having one or more units able to make defensive AA fire against the attacking destroyers.
What happens is that the defending AA units manage to sink all attacking destroyers, during their first (and maybe only) AA fire.
The question is whether or not the defending submarines should take part in the same combat round as if no destroyers are present on the attacking side.
@Trevan Are the 3 paragraphs above fully capturing the essence of your main question at this topic? Please, let me know if they don't.
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Under v2 LHTR rules, submarines fire and AA fire happen at the same moment (they are substantially both "first strike" attacks/defences, albeit the AA one having some additional special rules). However, destroyers taken as casualties during the Opening Fire from AA fire are being removed immediately after the Opening Fire is over. However, I tend to think that their mere presence during the whole Opening Fire step and at the start of the subsequent step should avoid submarines casualties being removed before reaching the normal step for removing casualties. Therefore, under v2 LHTR rules, I tend to believe that destroyers will save submarines casualties from being removed immediately after the Opening Fire even if the destroyers themselves are all removed immediately after the Opening Fire due to "anti-destroyer" AA fire. The destroyer themselves, of course, will not be able to fire, as they are removed before they can reach the normal step for it. Obviously, submarines that are hit by "anti-submarine" AA fire should be able to fire, instead, also no matter if a destroyer is present on the opposite side, as the submarines and AA fire both happen at the same time (on the same Opening Fire step). It is also opportune to notice that naval bombardment also happens at the same time as submarines fire and AA fire. Thus, for example, if destroyer-like units would be removed by naval bombardment, under v2 LHTR rules, exactly the same concept should apply as per the case of them being removed by anti-destroyer AA fire (it's really exactly the same thing, happening exactly at the same moment, as long as casualties removal goes). I'm almost sure all at this paragraph should be the same for basic v2 too.
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Under v3~5 rules, submarines fire happen exactly on the same step when any normal attacking fire happens, albeit at the start of it, that is before any other fire done on the same step. This is true both for attacking and defending submarines, meaning that also defending submarines will fire during (at the start of) the attacking units fire step, albeit after attacking submarines do the same (if they are present and no destroyer is present on the opposite side). Instead, AA gun fire, and are also removed from the battle, and returned to the zone of the battle, before the attacking fire happens. Therefore it seems logical to assume that if destroyers are all removed by anti-destroyers AA fire, the battle should, then, be fought like destroyers were never part of it. Similarly, submarines that are hit by "anti-submarine" AA fire shouldn't be able to take part in the actual battle, either, as the AA fire is, let's say, a higher level of "first strike" than their own first strike. On this matter, my understanding (but, please, @Panther check what I'm saying here, as I'm not sure) is that, for the mentioned specials, first you conduct the naval bombardment, whose casualties will be removed in the normal step for removing casualties, then you conduct the AA fire, whose casualties are removed immediately, then you conduct the submarines first strike, whose casualties are removed immediately, if they are from defending submarines, and are removed at the end of this special sub-step (thus after the defending submarines have fired and also after the attacking units taken as casualties from such fire has been removed), if they are from attacking submarines. Destroyer presence just imply that the submarines of the opposite side will fire as if they don't have any first strike ability, albeit still with the peculiarity of being unable to hit air units (so, they roll together with all other units in the battle, but you have to take care to keep the rolls separate if the opposite side has any air units (the opposite side will have to assign the maximum number of hits possible, which practically means assigning hits from non-first striking submarines first)). However, since in the basic rules you never have battles in which both submarines and AA guns fire, I think we cannot exclude that the underlying concept might be that such units are conceptually both "first strike". This is what they certainly were in v2 LHTR and this may be what they are supposed still to be in v3, as well, the difference merely coming from a different explanation of them, and not from any deliberate intention to make the AA fire more preliminary than the submarines fire. Therefore, also on consideration that older rules sets have the precedence in TripleA (if they don't, it's wrong), I'm not sure that it is due to have v3 changing (thus making a "property" based exception to) the clear v2 LHTR concept by which submarine and AA fire happen exactly at the same moment. Obviously, if one would assume that they happen at the same moment in v3 too, then destroyers removed by anti-destroyers AA fire would be unable to fire, yet would still impede (infinite) enemy submarines from having the first strike ability on that combat round (here actually with a certainty not given to me by v2 LHTR rules, due to how the anti-submarine ability of the destroyers work in v3~5 rules).
In any case, I encourage any developer involved in this matter clearly to document the intended behaviour in the mapmaking guide (which means the pos2 XML game file).
I'm reserving more time to give an opinion about any custom rules set obtained by mixing the rules of two or more basic rules sets, if ever.
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@Cernel I think that is roughly the gist.
So, for v2 LHTR (and similar rule sets), the AA and subs fire during the same phase. Any casualties in that phase are only removed at the end. A destroyer being present and hit during that phase still affects the subs.
In v3~5 (and similar rule sets), the AA fires and removes casualties before the subs get a chance to do anything. Destroyers hit by AA fire are removed before the subs get to fire and so they don't affect the subs.
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
@Cernel I think that is roughly the gist.
So, for v2 LHTR (and similar rule sets), the AA and subs fire during the same phase. Any casualties in that phase are only removed at the end. A destroyer being present and hit during that phase still affects the subs.
You are using the term "phase" in place of "step". However, I agree that "phase" and "step" are logically the same concept, as primary subdivisions of rounds.
Also, they are actually removed not at the end of the step, but in another immediately subsequent step.
Terminology and details aside, yes, but, while if v2 LHTR destroyers would work like v3~5 destroyers, I would be sure about it, because they are still there when they are needed to negate the submarines special abilities, the fact that v2 LHTR destroyers, instead, act on the casualties of the submarines, by keeping such casualties afloat until the normal phase in which casualties are removed, one might argue that destroyers going out of the battle before that point should not be able to do that (this is not what I understand, however). I want just to point out that what you say is correctly what I believe, but I'm not sure about it.
In v3~5 (and similar rule sets), the AA fires and removes casualties before the subs get a chance to do anything. Destroyers hit by AA fire are removed before the subs get to fire and so they don't affect the subs.
It certainly (or at least literally and logically) appears to be so, but this may be a change from v2 LHTR just coming out of a different explanation given to it, without any deliberate intention to make AA fire "more first striking" than submarines fire, especially since there is absolutely no reason to make such a change, in the moment you never have both in the same battle, in the basic games. However, if nothing would exist before v3 (or if TripleA would support only games starting from v3), then quite clearly yes.
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
A destroyer being present and hit during that phase still affects the subs.
Also, again, as far as my understanding goes, the destroyers of either Revised rules sets never "affects" the submarines, at least not directly. They, instead, avoid submarines' casualties to be taken out in the step immediately after the Opening Fire one (so, actually, destroyers do nothing at all during the Opening Fire step and, instead, are effective in the step immediately following, that is the one during which you remove the opening fire casualties) (so, these casualties remain there and, therefore, will be removed in the normal step for removing casualties). Meaning that it doesn't sound correct to me to say "still affects the subs", but I defer to @Panther whether or not this is an acceptable formulation. Rather than affecting the submarines, they affect the submarine's casualties, thus comprising possibly affecting themselves (if you take one or more destroyers as casualties during the Opening Fire step).
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@Cernel Correct. In newer editions a destroyer - among other things - cancels the submarine's ability to perform its surprise strike. In v2 however, the destroyer enables the sub's casualties to fire back at the normal time in the combat sequence.
