Revisiting an old project
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@hepps said in Revisiting an old project:
I liked the idea of a quality Ancient Era map for Triple A.
All the main things that I believe make the current game not so serious, plus the main things I'm personally not confortable with, plus a bunch of rename changes (historicity) are the reasons I made 270 BC Cernel Variant. That was made as a variant just because I didn't feel I could just update 270BC itself.
If a major change is going to be made for 270BC, I suggest to apply all the units and players names changes I made for 270BC Cernel Variant (I can make a full list of them here, if there is interest).
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I should precise that 270BC Cernel Variant is made starting from 270BC version 1.5 (I don't believe it is available anywhere), while the current version of 270BC is 1.6.
I'm not sure, but I believe the only difference of 1.6 over 1.5 are some bug corrections (wrong connections) and the addition of 1 Numidia spearman in Theveste.
I never understood why that spearman in Theveste was added, and my guess is that Veqryn just made that change unintentionally.
You can see that the current 270BC (1.6) has 953 TUV for AntiRoman and 950 TUV for Roman, while in the 1.5, as well as in the previous 1.3.1, both had 950 TUV.
Both alliances having exactly the same PUs, Production and TUV was a peculiarity of 270BC, since almost ever, so I noticed immediately when AntiRoman got that +3 TUV of the spearman for no apparent (to me) reasons.
Obviously, game wise, that change is closely marginal (I guess even most experts didn't even notice it).Long way to say that if you look at 270BC Cernel Variant from 270BC v1.6, you should also add the removal of 1 Numidia spearman in Theveste to the setup changes made, all listed in Game Notes.
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@hepps I was oriented to just wait the definitive original before updating the variants, but since this sounds like development hell, if you upload here your latest "units" folder, I'll use it to update the variants, meanwhile (and credit in game notes). Not sure what are the map changes, as I recall you didn't intend to make any, but updating maps like 270BC is a minefield, because people tend to be nostalgic. Anyways, if you don't mind the units variant getting updated meanwhile (by me), that would be nice. If I would make any changes to the units (I guess not), I would reupload here, just in case.
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@cernel I wouldn't call it 'development hell'. Simply that I do not feel qualified to re-balance the map due to the differences between the original 270 map and Total Ancient War in the Northern Aegean and Sea of Marmara.
If I played the map perhaps I would undertake this endeavour. However since I do not, it makes little sense for me to customize the map to suit my own tastes.
I will release the map when an avid player wants to help to re-balance the starting situation.
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@cernel nice I would love to see 40% with the new drawings hepps has made
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@prastle That does not solve the issue with the map differences.
"A joyous heart sours with the burden of expectation"
Hepster -
So here is the differences between the maps....
"A joyous heart sours with the burden of expectation"
Hepster -
@hepps gigglez yes I know that
all good a minor unit placement tweak -
@hepps Ok right, I remember that.
But I recall that just happened by mistake (didn't it?), because you took the TAW map, assuming it was just double sized from 270BC, not realizing that it had changes.
So, I umderstood you were in the process of reverting back to 270BC, making an enlarged map with the actual same game drawing.
Is there also a connection between Byzantium and Nicaea and a canal there, like it looks?
Regarding the Byzantium - Nicea canal, I would be against it because, at those time, you could not block ships, and anyways I would be against having different rules for Dardanelles and Bosphorus.
For the different Aegean sea zones, that was made I believe mostly to allow placement in enemy sea zones, without turning the game silly.
I agree that being unable to place in hostile sea zones makes no sense, but 270BC is not really sensible anyways.
But those changes, even without any canal additions, are really making it another game out of it, so that really would imply restarting the balance almost from scratch.
I think whoever would take on itself the responsibility of the change would get a lot of flack from people saying that old was better and you ruined the map, as many people tend to be conservative.
I definitely would not feel qualified as confirming the balance on this matter, also since I've not played 270BC much lately anyways (I tend to play my 40% mod).
Since I fear that this will just end in you remaining stuck waiting forever (as those changes would need several good players to playtest the map a lot, and I doubt that is happening) my suggestion is to go back to your (initial?) intent to just update the map visually, without gameplay changes.
I'm not saying that is a bad initiative, and I agree that the Aegean situation is not that good, and those changes would make for a better game, if balanced. I'm just not seeing the needed playtest, with very good players, happening, as I'm currently seeing 0 very good 270BC players active for feedback in the forum (since we also lost ice).
I'm sad I fear this will just end up in the graphic upgrades getting wasted, and that you will just wait forever.I just doubt that the current state of the community would allow such a rebalancing effort to be pulled off. Also, if the new map is not available by official channels, how that is going to happen, unless you keep sponsoring it privately?
If you want to upload just the unit images, I'm still disposable at GitHub updating those only (wasn't this the original intent of this thread?), both in 270BC and the variants (or only the variants), while waiting for the rest, if ever.
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@general_zod Beside the fact that @Hepps here meant to update 270BC, not my mods (thus why I intended to just wait for the final update, and then see what I could import over to the variants), there is also the problem that I don't want to have that canal or whatever in Byzantium - Nicaea, that I would keep my other changes from the original 270BC, and that I guess Hepps remade that unit display on the board, that the variants cannot have (you see I've removed it in the current one), as the units have different stats from the original, and anyways I'm against having on board things that would need graphic update for making any stats changes, if this is the case, especially for a variants skin (that may have different stats across the various games, anyways).
Aside from this, I think I would be fine at changing the Aegean sea zones to @Hepp proposal here, for my variants (and, being my variants, nobody can complain I ruined them), but, doing that, I would also allow placement in hostile sea zones and allow loading in hostile sea zones.
So, if @Hepps wants to redirect at updating the (my) variants, instead and before the original 270BC, and make all the above changes I said, sure, cool for me, but I don't think so.
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@cernel Long way to say I guess we just wait for the 270BC update (I just doubt it will happen), then I will think about what to move over to the variants (maybe only the new units graphics).
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I was under impression @hepps was watching our 270bc 40% multi games when there was a lot of interest in those/that version (your version). None of the other versions have been played much, if at all to my knowledge.
Yeah canal stuff is just xml, so no issue there.
Anyways I rather see the artwork get used in the most popular 270 bc version than none at all. An then those others will remain as they are since there's no gamers for those atm.
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@general_zod So, as I said, I would be cool at skipping 270BC and directly updating the variants with @Hepps work or even making my "Cernel Variant", plus the sea zones changes, into the new official 270BC, but there are the few problems I underlined (I really don't like the addition of canals in any straits) and it depends on @Hepps.
I want also to point out that I had people that said that my version ruined 270BC and the original is much better, but they were referring to "270BC 40%", not to "270BC Cernel Variant" ("270 BC Cernel Variant" is the variant of "270BC"; "270BC 40%" is the mod of that variant).
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@general_zod said in Revisiting an old project:
Yeah canal stuff is just xml, so no issue there.
There is the issue that the version @Hepps posted is clearly displaying a canal in the Bosphorous, and I'm against both that or having the visual inconsistent with game data.
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Hmm, didn't notice the canal in his pic.
The version I have looks like so.
I think your version was the best version from a multi player standpoint. It even had some 1v1 action when peeps wanted to prove themselves.
Anyways, ask him if you can tweak the map skin to no canals look.
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@general_zod Not a fan of surging. That would need the sea zone pattern being fully redone, without that canal display.
Not a fan of asking, either. I would use it, totally or partially, if it is made officially freely usable, like by uploading it to GitHub, or by other ways of declaring it publicly free to use. -
@cernel Hepps already told us we could use it. Yes it was your 40% that got played. The things left to fix were the support abilities for some of the units. Like chariots and axemen etc.
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What I'm saying is that it I would use it if everyone can use it (with no need of asking), and I don't believe @Hepps publicly released it, if I'm not overlooking.
If you mean that in "Cernel Variant" Chariots cannot support and axeman cannot receive support, that is intended (original 270BC they can, and I removed it on purpose).
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