New Map: World War 1 End of Empires

[iratoric]

@Schulz

• Germany with 1914 borders has 20 PUs on land and 4 PUs in convoy centers, for a total of 24 PUs. Russia with 1914 borders has 25 PUs. So it is a difference of just 1 PU. However, you do make a good point; a lot of Russia's economy was focused on subsistence farming which could not be converted to military power. Meanwhile, Germany's economy was focused a lot more on the military. As such, I might increase Germany's production by a few PUs.
• It depends on what you mean by "stronger". If you mean industrialization, stability, leadership, etc. then France was definitely stronger. This is reflected in the fact that Russia has a lot of low value territories and it is pretty easy to send Russia into Revolution. However, if we are just talking about raw resources then Russia definitely had more. Technically Russia's army was even larger than Germany's! However, this was mostly an illusion as Russia could not effectively supply all those troops. I was considering making Russia's units have lower attack values but figured it would be offensive, essentially saying that their soldiers are somehow "lesser". So I just gave them fewer units. A better solution might be to add a movement cost to units; I believe the Civil War map did this. That way you would have to supply units to be able to use them.

[Cernel]

@iratoric About the "players" colours and the colourization of their units, I suggest you take a look at the "Over The Top" map. I wonder why the Austria-Hungary territories and units are yellow? Makes me think it's the Holy Roman Empire. The colours used by the "Over the Top" map are more in line with the colours of the uniforms of the common soldiers at the time, and, pretty much, @GenerationKILL has set some skin standards, with that map, which can hardly be improved by any other World War 1 game, so I'm not saying everyone should just use exactly the same colours, but it is a good point of reference, preferably referring to the displayed territory colours as modified by the map details (not as defined in the "map" properties).

[Schulz]

@iratoric

Once I had tried realistically rating major WW1 combatants considering, GDP, war making capabilities, steel productions, electric comsuptions, vulnerabilities, stability, leadership etc... I had came up with these numbers;

Germany: 11
Austria: 4
Ottoman: 1

British Empire: 9
France: 6
Russia: 6
Italy: 2

---

If we could take into account the fact that the Central Powers were able to fight against basically the rest of world for 4 years while taking 4 enemy capitals and knocking out of one of major entente member. These ratings seems realistic to me. If Germany was weaker than both the British Empire and Russia in 1914, there is absolutely no way the war could last 4 years, the Central Powers would be decisively defeated within 1 year.

Also some realistic aspects are harder to take into account like Austria's terrain advantage over Italy that's one of the reason why Italy couldn't even advance Austria significantly despite outnumbering Austria 2-2.5 to 1.

[RogerCooper]

I have done a fair amount of research on the economics of the world wars, especially with regards to databases, the most useful being the Maddison Database and the Correlates of War. It is surprisingly difficult to relate GDP figures to actual military capacity and production. (There are also quality problems with both databases, such as abrupt, inexplicable changes between adjacent years, and not agreeing with each other).

In both world wars, Germany & Russia had roughly similar GDP's, but in WW1 the Germans beat the Russians in every battle with basically a quarter of their resources, while in WW2 the Russians stopped the Germans when the Germans used most of their resources to fight the Russians. The Russian mobilization was very inefficient in WW1, while German mobilization was somewhat inefficient in WW2.

An interesting example is the Sino-Japanese war of 1937-1945. The GDP's were similar and the Chinese armies were larger (but less well equipped). But a combination of Japanese Air/Naval superiority and Chinese inefficiency meant that Chinese could only fight a defensive war and were unable to hold their major coastal cities.

To really replicate 1917 situation, Russia needs to have minimal offensive power. Russia had basically lost its offensive capability after the ultimate failure of the 1916 Brusilov offensive. (My grandfather, fighting for Austria was captured then). They can have lots of units, but little attack capability. This puts the Germans in their historical dilemma, of committing large forces to conquer Russia or focusing on the West.

Historically, the German leadership, tantalized by the goal of Paris, chose wrong. Had they stood on the defense in 1918 and focused attention on turning Russia into a series of pro-German client states, they probably would have achieved stalemate in the West and a negotiated peace leaving the Germans dominant in Eastern Europe. The limited efforts made to create client states were fairly effective (these countries are still around). An orderly purchase of agricultural products from the Ukraine would have averted the food shortages that sapped German home front morale in 1918.

By the way, Schulz's production values are fairly similar to the ones used by Kirk Uhlmann his excellent game The Lamps are Going Out.

Germany: 12
Austria: 3
Turkey: 1

Great Britain: 7
France: 4
Italy: 1
Russia: 4

[iratoric]

@cernel I do like the color scheme "Over the Top" uses, so I will change the colors and use those instead. The main thing I don't like about that map is that Austria-Hungary looks kind of weird. By map details, are you referring to the map relief? I think the map relief uses a semi-transparent layer which would look better than the opaque colors I am currently using.

I changed the border between Alsace and Belgium so that they are connected now:

This definitely solidifies Germany's hold on Belgium because they can attack into Belgium from two territories now.

@Schulz I let the Hard AI play against itself with the new Belgium-Alsace connection and got this result:

As you can see, the Central Powers took Paris by round 12, winning the game. So it is definitely possible for the Central Powers to win.

Here are some tips on how to win as the Central Powers:

• Use your submarines to capture convoy centers
• When warships try to attack your submarines, either submerge or retreat, you will do more damage by attacking convoys
• The Entente as a whole is stronger than the Central Powers so you will have to practice defeat in detail
• Focus on knocking Russia out of the war first, defend against France and Italy
• When Russia makes peace, you will get a boost to your income from the conquered lands
• Use your navy to prevent Britain from naval invading you, plus a few troops along the coastline
• Move your units to the west and defeat Italy and France
• If you can hold Paris to the end of the round you will win

[Schulz]

@iratoric I didn't mean to discuss the game balance since I haven't played the map yet. I had just intented to share my realistic ratings of nations but all off them are negligible of course.

I have different approach for colors of nations. I think it is wiser to prioritizing distinctive colour rather than using their uniform colours (it is problematic because there will be 3 brown, 2 green and 2 blue nations). For example Russian uniforms obviously weren't red in WWII (neither German ones were pure grey) but red matchs just perfectly for Russia and creates more contrast.

There is of course no historical reason to use yellow for Austria I guess it is used because yellow is one of the primary colour and has to be used somewhere. But I can say I don't like the this shade of yellow. Too bright for me I would suggest to make it slighly more orange-ish if you want to keep it yellow.

You could maybe like my Japan's colour.

[iratoric]

@schulz
The only problem with using your Japan color is it looks close to the Impassable color used for Switzerland, Denmark, etc. I do like your suggestion that Austria-Hungary be orange-yellow, so I decided to test it out:

I think this looks much better! Tell me what you think.

[Schulz]

Yes it is better now. (though I would still suggest to making it orange-ish, you could check NAP FFA 8 players and see the Swedish color. It is really distinguishable colour.)

Also I would advice adding a bit grey-ish tone to Russian pure white when they left the war. I've used this color for impassables.

[iratoric]

@schulz
I changed neutral Russia's color to light grey, now they look like this:

With the current mechanic Russia becomes neutral but not impassable, so German units do not get "stuck" in neutral territory and are able to exit Russia.

[iratoric]

@Schulz
By the way, I was considering giving Belarus to Germany, however it seems that this territory may have remained Russian under the treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

[Cernel]

@iratoric I think the most questionable ownership on the map is Greece being Italian. Of course, a game has to make approximations, and it may also be good to do so, yet, also on the account that the game aims at realism to some extent, I mostly wonder if Italy is the best choice amongst all existent players (instead of, say, France).

About this, Bulgaria is certainly a player one may consider worth (or not worth) being a player, maybe more so than Greece.

Anyways, I also support your general approach to keep the complexity of the game fairly low. You are quite exceptional here (as most map-makers make big and complex games).

[Schulz]

@iratoric

Congress Poland and Baltics were the only areas which the Germans were able to establish client states hence turning them Grey is correct when Russia left the war.

Ukraine became independent state but had grain agreement with Germany and Austria in exchange of military protection from the Bolsheviks. Belarus was in similar situation. If Ukraine becomes German, then Beularus could be too.

Finland became independent not a client state.

Southern Caucasus was very complicated.

[RogerCooper]

@schulz German troops took Helsinki in March 1918. I think we can count Finland as another German client state.

[Schulz]

@rogercooper I've though because the Germans considered the actions of red Finns backed by the Bolsheviks is a violation of Brest-Litovsk.

I'am not sure if it would be correct to turn Finland grey just because German troops stationed there. As far as I know Finland wasn't a client state (please correct me if there are evidences against this.)

[iratoric]

@schulz I think I will follow your suggestion to make Belarus German as well because it appears that there was a serious attempt to form an independent Belarusian state on the territory controlled by the German Imperial Army: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_People's_Republic

Here is a 1918 New York Times article discussing the newly independent Ukraine:

I think Germany should get income from these newly independent states because the German Army occupied them and exploited their resources. In terms of gameplay, it will give the Germans incentive to knock Russia out of the war because they will increase their income without having to deal with the Russian army anymore.

[iratoric]

@Cernel
The only reason I chose Italy is because their proximity to Greece makes it easier for them to move more troops there. However, I will change Greece to French ownership as the Allied Army of the Orient which operated in Greece and Macedonia was headed by France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Army_of_the_Orient
I will change the units in Greece to be a multinational force as Britain and France were fighting in Greece alongside Italy.

[RogerCooper]

@schulz You could plausibly make them Gray, or make them "White" anti-communist Russians.

[Schulz]

BTW I'am not sure about national flags of Italy and Russia if they were really containing crown symbols. Using the Russian flag to represent Russian Empire might be inaccurate.

Here is the Russian flag with the crown symbol:

[iratoric]

@schulz Here is a Russian flag with the coat of arms on it for reference:

[Schulz]

@iratoric Thank you but its circled version might be not aesthetically pleasing unfortunately. Maybe its possible to make a version of it with the crown symbol will occupy only quarter (or half) of circle.I will try that.