Map Scenario Categories In Download Windows

Cernel

@Hepps said in Map Scenario Categories In Download Windows:

@Cernel I don't care anymore...you have proven yourself incapable of listening to what other people are saying. Despite multiple people making recommendations for English terms that people will recognize easily and immediately... you continually ignore what they are telling you because of a compulsive need for an organizational system so insanely specific, while at the same time creating names for things that no English speaking person would ever fathom to use under these circumstances.

I surrender.

Wow. I've actually kept changing the names a lot, if you have followed. And I've also said that all names are open to be changed. The problem is that I need alternatives.

For "Antique", for example, either we go back splitting up, as I did initially, as you can see at the first post (but then we have very small categories), or I'm fine using like "Ancient/Medieval", if preferred.

But, for example, in the case of "Revolutional" aka "Early Modern" I've not an idea about what to use for that in case of "A/B/C"; nothing more, nothing less.

Cernel

@prastle said in Map Scenario Categories In Download Windows:

@Cernel umm Feral? Like animals vs animals? do we have that? do they have rabies? Neat idea for a map tho. Guess ya mean zombies.

For now, the only map of such a category is "Jurassic".

Cernel

Using the multiple names suggestion, we could have:

1.Primeval/Ancient/Medieval (until 1492)
2.???/Colonial/Steam (1492-1914)
3.WW1 (1914-1929)
4.WW2 (1929-1945)
5.Recent (1945 today)
6.Multi-Age (at least two of the above fully covered)
7.Fictional (any mainly or totally fictional settings)
8.Abstract (maps not aiming at representing any settings)

Those should be fairly understandable names. We can assume that Feral is part of Primeval.
I only need a name for 1492 before steam, and, if possible, something better than steam (not industrial, as it doesn't stop with WW1). I don't think Renaissance would be very good, as it is in the middle of Medieval and Early Modern, rather than the pre-steam part of Early Modern.
But an option would be to extend the timeline of one or the other to have all the Renaissance inside.

Cernel

@prastle The Feral category I believe is a minor matter, as such maps would have to be so fictional that can stay there. So "Jurassic" can be surely moved to Fictional. Still, even tho it doesn't exist yet, somebody might make a map before Ancient but with men (Primeval or Prehistory).

prastle

@Cernel a few minor edits

otherwise np but just mho of course
fic and abstract can be one cat
im also curious if we really need multi age just throw it in above
Since most here play historic games I also ? do we need recent
or could it all be tied into a futuristic stand point?

The main point im trying to get as is shouldnt we have as minimal a number of categories as possible?

Cernel

@prastle I think categories with few maps are in a way more needed than categories with many maps.
"Recent" is an example in that, if somebody wants to search for a "Cold War" scenario, it could click on that and get the few options, rather than having to delve to search for it. So, yes, I think Recent (1945-today) is good to have.
I'm not against merging "Fictional" and "Abstract", but I like having a category for maps with no setting at all, like HexGlobe.
I think 8 categories is really a number we don't need to go below.
The "Multi-Age" is just theory, as currently there are no maps at all in it, since I would put "Age of Tribes" in Fictional, mainly because of the East vs West thing.

prastle

@Cernel ok i have 1 ? before i continue do you have any idea how vague "recent " is?

to explain better RECENT? as compared to WHAT?

I love ya but choose a new term or name

Cernel

@prastle I'm strongly against calling it "Modern". My initial suggestion was "Late Modern". I don't like "Recent" much either. "Contemporary" would be ok, if most prefer it over "Recent", tho I'm not a big fan. I'm open to other proposals, as with multiple we can have also "ColdWar/???", if preferred.

Maybe "ColdWar/Contemporary"?

prastle

@Cernel all your terms are vague. They reffer to a perspective of time. Except the problem is your using your own perspective. I cant explain further than that glhf my fr

CrazyG

I'm a teacher. I could see a test question asking "which of the following words best describes the wars between Rome and Carthage?

a)Antique
b)Ancient
c)Old
d)Feral

And the correct answer is b)Ancient. This isn't subjective, the better word when speaking English in 2017 is Ancient. Antique is wrong because that word is not commonly used with that meaning

When I read the name Revolutional, it sounds like this category will contain maps than revolutionized tripleA. Or maybe maps that are going in circles around the sun? Nothing about that word implies that time period. If the variety of other words suggested (Colonial seems pretty reasonable to me) don't work, you should simply name the category "1492 to 1914".

We don't need a "Feral" Category. We can put Jurassic into Fantasy/Sci-Fi

We don't need an alternate history category. Isn't every ww2 map alternate history? Several of them make no effort whatsoever to recreate the events, or even start with accurate borders.

prastle

@CrazyG eloquent as always and well written cg

Frostion

I don't want to start a debate, but ...... I just want to point out that "Antique" in some languages refers to the Greek and Roman age. So this might be the reason that some people find "Antique" to be a reasonable term. Like in Danish: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikken

Also in danish, when Antique is used as a very broad term, anything before Antique is Prehistoric and anything after is Medieval. But some times the word "oldtid" (ancient/old times) is used for the ancient mesopotamian and egyptian times within recorded history.

No wonder people can have different views on this period listing

prastle

@Frostion I think the main real ? here is what terms can be easily understood by all with current English language.

Example - "Cute" in an old dictionary from the forties as I recall meant short, fat, ugly, and bow legged.

                      -  Now of course it means an attractive comely young bar maid.

I think ya get the point that the English language evolves as does all languages. What needs to be determined is terms that are easily understood by all. Just my 2 cents

CrazyG

@Frostion
In the past Antique probably meant something closer to its Danish/German counterpart, but the language evolved. Antique is usually used as a noun, antiques are technically supposed to be at least 100 years old, but commonly you see "Antique shops" selling things from the 70's and 80's. Its by far the most common way to see the word used (in the USA and Canada at least). I've never heard someone use it to describe a time period

Black_Elk

If the multiple category thing feels too wordy, could just use a few prefixes. Like if you want a category that describes everything before or after the middle ages, you could just say Pre-Medieval or Post-Medieval, or something along those lines. Or you know, if you want something later in tame Pre-Industrial or Pre-Modern or the like. All the naming conventions are pretty Eurocentric, even the straight dates, but dates are easy to work with. Maybe something like Pre-20th Century?

I'd agree that a category like Classical probably isn't necessary. Classics is too specific anyway, for as much as I dig the Greeks and Romans (and that was my undergraduate major, so I feel like kind of a turncoat saying so, but its just a game here). Ancient is more generic and seems somehow more serviceable for anything well ancient. Better to have a broader umbrella for most of these, unless there's like a flurry of map making going down for all these other others eras. To me Antique suggests objects, like I hear antique and I think jars and chairs and whatnot, as CrazyG mentioned. Maybe if wewant to keep that one just go with Antiquity? The adjective Revolutional also sounds marked to me. I hear that word and strain to hear Revolutionary or something else instead. The less common usages feel somehow off when I read down the list, even if they mean more or less the same thing. In practical terms it probably just comes down to games set during the Second World War, and games that aren't haha. But a more expansive catalog for the other categories couldn't hurt.

Right now you basically have historical maps set before the Age of Discovery, those set after it, 3 categories for stuff in the 20th century (Before, During, and After WWII), and then a large category of non-historical/fictional settings. Seems good to me. Probably doesn't matter what you call them, if the dates are there most people will know what they're getting into.

I still dig that idea about the tags and filters, so that it can be more dynamic and reorganized according to different criteria later on.

Cernel

@Black_Elk "Age of Discovery" is interesting, but I want to avoid using stuff that has to start with "Age of", so I need terms that are self-sufficient, but probably this is not needed, as this seems just a subset of "Colonial".

I'm thinking your multiple category suggestion might be the only viable choice and I prefer it over pre-something or post-something. Likely we should assure the multiple category to be never more than 3 total.

Cernel

So, going with the @Black_Elk suggestion of having multiple named single categories, as a mean to achieve the aim both to keep a low number of them and to be able to find good names for the same, here are my latest suggestions:

1.Ancient/Medieval (about 3000 BC until 1492)
2.Colonial/Enlightenment/Steam (1492-1914)
3.WW1 (1914-1929)
4.WW2 (1929-1945)
5.ColdWar/Contemporary (1945 today)
6.Multi-Age (at least two of the above fully covered)
7.Fictional (any mainly or totally fictional settings, comprising any settings before recorded human history)
8.Abstract (maps not aiming at representing any settings)

Opinions? Any better 1492-1914 label than Colonial/Enlightenment/Steam (I would prefer stuff that about stops before and after; so not Industrial, that goes on after 1914 (I know that "steam" kind of does too)).

p.s.: I agree moving "Jurassic", as well as any feral maps we might see in the future, to "Fictional", in my suggested list. I'm anyway not sure where it should start, as I guess if someone wants to make a map with homo habilis (I know I should say homines habiles) going around that may be arguable if all have to start with the homo sapiens or maybe a map of neanderthals vs sapiens or whatever in 100,000 BC. Anyways, I'm guessing I'm keeping Primeval or Prehistory out too, as one may argue making a map in Prehistory is about the same as making a Feral one.
So let's say we start with the Sumerian, and anything before is Fictional.
In a way, having a setting before recorded human history is almost the same as guessing what will happen in the future.

Cernel

As I said, I'm not sure "Fictional" is a good term, and probably too broad, but like "Fantasy/Science-Fiction" would leave out all the things that are not part of real ages nor of these genres (like alternative but regular worlds, just not our own; for example, Neuschwabenland, that of course it is not this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Swabia), plus I've a strong personal preference that extremely fictional stuff like Zombieland or Steampunk go there, instead of in its own timeline.

Frostion

@Cernel
I know that setting fixed years on categories might seem reasonable when making a list of periods. But I don’t think it would be good to list dates anywhere in conjunction to the map list. For example, a WW1 game might start out pre 1914 if the map has some intention that included a political prelude or other actions before the war breaks out. Same would apply if a map wanted to simulate the Age of Discovery and start out from scratch, before 1942. I would say that the most important thing when categorizing maps is the “theme”. If it is a WW1 themed map, it should be under WW1. If the map theme is related to colonial times, then the map could be colonial.

Multi Age is redundant as I see it. Even if a map would span like WW1 and WW2 and somehow have units that represented both wars, the first and starting theme (WW1) could just be the determining factor. In the case of Age of Tribes, that spans many periods, I still see the original “Primeval” start at the primary, and therefore it would just be Ancient. (Even though the map can also be played as and include futuristic/sci-fi elements.)

Fiction? TripleA is a game. All events happening in all maps are fiction, including all WW2 maps, just like every WW2 movie is fiction. It would not make sense to have a “Fictional” category.

Fantasy and sci-fi seem to be pretty accepted terms in media and literature to represent futuristic and/or fantastic themed stuff. Everyone knows the words, what it is, and have a pretty good idea about what to expect. Again, every TripleA map playthrough is fiction, but not all maps make use of futuristic or fantastic elements.

Modern? People are not historians. The primary understanding of this word is something ”of or relating to present and recent time; not ancient or remote” (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/modern) Also, maybe for this reason, high end games that let players progress through time, like Empire Earth, use the word modern in this way (http://empireearth.wikia.com/wiki/Epoch), as do Forge of Empires (http://forgeofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Ages) and Rise of Nations (http://riseofnations.wikia.com/wiki/Ages).

Based on that, I would modify your list to this:

1. Ancient
2. Medieval
3. Colonial
4. WW1
5. WW2
6. Modern
7. Sci-Fi
8. Fantasy
9. Abstract

Neuschwabenland – I would say it is WW2 themed. Fictional maybe, but so is all other WW2 maps.
Zombies – I would say Sci-fi. Just as alien invasion movies, meteor strike movies, end of the world movies etc. these movies are labeled horror/sci-fi, sci-fi/drama, sci-fi/action etc. Zombies are after all mostly a result of some science experiment gone wrong, or the whole plot is about some scientific solution to the zombie-problem.
Steampunk – “Steampunk is a subgenre of science fiction or science fantasy that incorporates technology and aesthetic designs inspired by 19th-century industrial steam-powered machinery.” – wiki. I would say that if there is the slightest degree of magic or fantasy in the map’s universe, then it is fantasy, if not magic, then it is sci-fi.

CrazyG

@Frostion said in Map Scenario Categories In Download Windows:

Based on that, I would modify your list to this:

1. Ancient
2. Medieval
3. Colonial
4. WW1
5. WW2
6. Modern
7. Sci-Fi
8. Fantasy
9. Abstract

Neuschwabenland – I would say it is WW2 themed. Fictional maybe, but so is all other WW2 maps.
Zombies – I would say Sci-fi. Just as alien invasion movies, meteor strike movies, end of the world movies etc. these movies are labeled horror/sci-fi, sci-fi/drama, sci-fi/action etc. Zombies are after all mostly a result of some science experiment gone wrong, or the whole plot is about some scientific solution to the zombie-problem.
Steampunk – “Steampunk is a subgenre of science fiction or science fantasy that incorporates technology and aesthetic designs inspired by 19th-century industrial steam-powered machinery.” – wiki. I would say that if there is the slightest degree of magic or fantasy in the map’s universe, then it is fantasy, if not magic, then it is sci-fi.

That list looks great to me.

Here is what I would do. Rather than just sort the maps into categories, we use a system of tags. Each map has at least 1 genre tag, but can have more as well. So Age of Tribes could fall under Ancient, Medieval, Colonial, WW1, Modern, and Sci-Fi. It would appear under any of those columns

Steampunk is sci-fi and ww1

Neuschwabenland is abstract and ww2.

This is a flexible system that we can easily maintain and adjust long term. Any map should be able to fit into one of those 9, and by having more than 1 we accommodate weird maps (like if someone creates ww2 with vampires)

Long term, we could add an advanced search feature and additional tags, for things like map size, year created, play time, etc