Proposed Map: Domination 1941

[Black_Elk]

Yeah that could work I'll admit I keep waffling a bit in terms of what sort of actual game to try and create lol.

Initially my thought was to create a baseline templet that wasn't attached to any particular game, but conceived more as a map creator's resource. When doing that, certain divisions recommend themselves more than others. Like for example, it doesn't really make sense to remove lines and collapse TTs for that, because that just makes it harder for someone to come along later and modify in a sensible way. If for example, the number/shape of territories are defined in terms of occupation zones at some specific point in time for a specific game, that baseline will be less useful generally, than one which shows many more lines, but where those can simply be erased later, once someone knows what they actually want to achieve with it. But then I'm already like halfway along in the process of ignoring a lot of that stuff, to just make the map for the requested scenario lol.

I'll use Italy as a quick example. So the modern state has what something like what 20 provinces? If I draw all 20 of them in the baseline templet, then a map maker can come along later and decide like "OK I want Piedmont, Lombardy and Liguria to be a single tile in my game" or "I want Tuscany and Umbria to be a single tile for my idea" etc and they will know how to get there by just erasing lines. If instead I start with say the Gothic line or the Gustav line, because it makes more sense for the specific WW2 game we have in mind, that's cool, but it's use is then much more limited. Basically for the exact sort of reason Cernel mentioned. If I show you first where Piedmont is, or Lombardy or Liguria, then you can know "OK that's Turin, that's Milan, that's Genoa" etc and they'll have a better sense of how to attack and redraw the baseline for their specific idea.

You could do the same thing in the Balkans as well, and that's probably an even better example. So like do we want a broader region that shows Dalmatia, Panonnia, Bosnia etc or do you want to see a divided Croatian rump state where the lines fall according to occupation zones in the 1940s? See what I'm saying.

This is my main dilemma for the generic baseline thus far, because the more information I erase at this point the less adaptive it is for other uses. I mean conceivably we could draw a baseline that works for anything from like the 16th century on probably, provided we do enough mini regions lol. But then if we get sucked into the minutia of "that tile is too small" or "that line/ownership doesn't quite make sense for November 1941" or "that place isn't far enough from the other place for tanks, or too far for strategic bombers" etc then it's sort of a different convo right. Cause then it's about adapting the template to a specific purpose rather than trying to make a generic one.

One of the things Hepps did when constructing 1914 game out of the Domination baseline, was that he created circular TTs or more abstract blob TTs, that were essentially cities. So sorta vaguely you'd have a regional province and then some adjacent urban center next to it (just going off his labelling I mean) that sorta abstracted many regions. But that definitely makes it trickier for me to go in and repurpose now, as I'm basically adding back information and redrawing a lot of lines, where they wouldn't make sense for 1941 compared to 1914. Drawing is a chore, whereas erasing is much easier, provided you understand the referents at the start. Part of me wants to go in and just break up Europe by like provinces/counties or whatever, so people could create pleasing shapes/combinations out of them, but then that's going to take forever again lol. So I don't know. I guess I can be happy enough that I got a set of Global divisions that felt fairly decent. Perhaps 1 baseline templet to rule them all was a bit too ambitious heheh.

I think we should make this one the best we can for WW2 I suppose, with that start date and that sorta playscale, and if people want to adapt it for other stuff down the road, they can figure out what needs to be redrawn to adapt it lol.

That one has a blocking that seems somewhat more sensible for me, in terms of the Balkans and such. I think the only reason to consider giving Germany that portion of Thrace is just so they have a tile somewhere in the Med. I think I'd prefer to give all of Greece to Germany just for that reason maybe, although I guess it depends who controls Bulgaria and those minors, or Vichy, whether that goes to G or Italy. Just seems like it would be nice for Germany to have a toehold down there at the outset haha. Here for Japan I selected the next yellow down in the web palette, just for something slightly less vibrant. More Ochre/Mustard than Yellow, little easier on the eyes maybe hehe.

Best Elk

[beelee]

@black_elk looking way sweet ! Glad you included Thrace. Maybe someone will do a Spartacus one

[Black_Elk]

Hehe right! On

So here is the same, but with Greece under German control. I think it actually looks cool both ways for a visual balance, so I'm not sure which is best lol.

To the question about assigning control of say Romania or the Balkans states, that might not be a bad idea, if only for the fact that (due to A&A gameplay) Italian units are likely to end up on the Eastern Front anyway for can opening type stuff. So in that sense, if say Hunagary/Romania were assigned to Italian control, it might make that seem less weird. Not that Italians didn't fight on the eastern front too, but you know what I mean right, with the checkerboard coloring that tends to happen. If that's an unavoidable reality, it might be nice to just say well those aren't just Italians but Romanians/Hungarians etc too.

Any thoughts on how to subdivide the Med Sea Zones?

I'm pretty sure we can get another SZ into the Adriatic and Tyrrhenian, or split the sz around Greece into Aegean and Ionian zones or something. Then try to get those to split across some of the Islands, like Crete and Sicily/Sardinia.

Not sure about the stuff around Africa though. Like if we want to try to get another horizontal division going there for a bypass/transit sz or for convoys, or just keep it to mainly verticals?

If I shift Malta a bit to the right, we could break the Libyan sz in half and have Malta riding that line. Basically we'd have a SZ for Tripoli and then another for Tobruk, which might be fun.

Or nearby, I think the Black Sea is large enough to divide horizontally was well for 3 or 4 zones instead of just 2, which might make that sz a bit more interesting even with the Bosporus closed.

[beelee]

@black_elk Going by the oob map, if you split the Malta zone vertically to meet the Sicily one by moving Libya/Tobruk slightly west, so they'd all line up, would be cool imo.

That way, using G 40 rules with NB boost, one couldn't move from GIB, S France to Egypt or vice versa in one move/turn

Edit
Ahh ... yea what you said above lol

[beelee]

@Black_Elk i like your more generic approach and let people adjust as desired, as opposed to hardwiring it one way or another too much

[Black_Elk]

So for the Channel and the Med etc how about something more like this?

Basically the idea there is to give the Regia Marina a few fall back points. You know, instead of just getting blown out of the water instantly like in Global hehe. Or to have at least a few cat and mouse type zones in there. Or for the Channel I thought we could maybe do it that way to sort of break it up without messing with the air transits too much. Kinda gives the low countries more of distinct flavor from the Channel/Normandy sz.
Anyhow, let me know how it feels. I can dive back in on it wherever.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tugjcvsb5y106rl/TripleA_4k_Domination_1941_painted_more_sz.png?dl=0

[beelee]

@black_elk nice I wonder if that might be one too many off Algeria ? Be nice to still hit GIB to Malta in one turn G 40 wise. And you couldn't hit Italy from the Atlantic still. Of course, as you said, it'd be easy enough to erase.

Guess i"m thinking two things at once lol

[Black_Elk]

@beelee You can still do the Gibraltar to Malta thing, you just have to fly through the Majorca sz instead of going through the coastal Algerian subdivisions. I was thinking it might be fun to have a zone inserted there for like Axis early invasion in that part of N. Africa, or for when the Allies make their landings.

I tried to put in a few shortcuts like that in various places, just so it doesn't turn into a complete slog. That was part of the dilema with Italy too, cause too many breaks and their reach gets nerfed. I couldn't find a great way to bisect Sicily that I liked, so I did it for Sardinia instead, which was probably more important anyway, for the King at least lol.

[beelee]

@Black_Elk like the way way GIB Norway is 2 turns now too. I guess the Azores already did that. Makes that Normandy NB more important. Maybe G want's to fight for it a bit more ?

Edit
Holy Bong Water Batman ! Haven't looked at the Atlantic in a while lol Lotsa of fun to be had there

[Black_Elk]

Yeah it just seems like everything is a bit of a tradeoff. Just based on the ideas floated thus far it seems like the proposed Domination game is quite a bit different than say Global. With a completely different playscale. Like it'd be hard to say, "it's just Global or AA50 but with way more TTs and SZ." Especially if units are behaving differently or there is upkeep or many of the other suggestions. It just becomes a pretty different game altogether at that point. Though honestly when dividing up the map like this, I can't help but think it would be fun to play something like this using the bare bones rules of G40 or AA50 or 1942.2. You know, where the new strategic interest basically being the map design, and all the familiar being basically the units. Though that might not satisfy the real desire laid out in the OP. I guess I'm still just defaulting to what I think looks cool, since it's hard to say what it will transform into once the Unit roster and the Economy and the starting forces are added into it.

[beelee]

@black_elk that's why this map is so badass. it can do multiple things lol

Edit
Ah yea can still hit Malta in 3. Wouldn't want me for a navigator lol

[Black_Elk]

I wonder, just since we've been kicking around ideas about the range on aircraft, and since the G40 templet assumed Air Bases or Naval Bases giving at least a +1.

What if we instead went with something rather simple. Like units can just get +1 (ships) or +2 (aircraft) but only on Non Combat movement? That would preserve the ability to transit units for reinforcement purposes, though not necessarily for running attacks. Seems simpler to me that having a gang of bases everywhere.

Here it is with dark oceans, just to make those sz borders a bit easier to see.

[beelee]

@black_elk yea you'd have to player enforce though. I can't think of a way to do it splitting between CM and NCM. Maybe it'd be a fairly easy feature request ?

One of the ISU guys might take it on Probably not

i know you said the bases make it more complex, but I also found those A0C5 Bmbrs like more targets lol

[beelee]

@black_elk cool That water looks cold :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

[Black_Elk]

hehe it's funny, because the reality is that we don't perceive color in isolation, only in relation to the surrounding colors.

So simply by changing the ocean to a dark blue, the value of the others colors appears to change, even though they haven't (well except for Japan's mustard.) Just kinda one of those curious quirks of the color palette and whatever the overall read in value is going to be lol.

You can see the knock on color effect when I put em right next to each other hehe.

Yeah might be too hard to pull off the CM/NC thing for air. I guess I'm not opposed to Air bases on general principle, but it'd be nice if we could figure out something that's flexible and not too tricky. Might be a tall order lol

[beelee]

another thing that makes it more complex but from redesign ideas, is the base is required to build air or naval with capital ships and Bmbrs only built at home Factories

makes em a lot more important then

9) "FactoryLimited_ChangerMustActivate"
Air and Naval Bases now cost 12. All captured and newly constructed Minor Factories may only produce Artillery, AAguns, Armor, Mech Infantry, Mobile Infantry, Marines, Elite and Infantry. If a NB is present you may also build Subs, Transports, Escort Carriers and Destroyers. If an AB is present you may also build Fighters and Tac Bombers.
ABs are required to build Fighters, Tac Bombers, Bombers and Air Transports. Bombers and Air Transports may only be built in Factories on originally owned Territories that also have an AB. In addition, Bombers and Air Transports may not be built in the following territories: Kwangtung, Egypt, Norway, Alaska, West India and Korea. May not build at an AB with 3 or more damage.
Note: You may not place new Fighters on CVs. All air units may only be placed in the Territory that contains an AB as well as the correct Factory.
NBs are required to build all Naval Units. BBs, CVs and CAs may only be built in Territories with originally owned starting Factories. These Territories must also have a NB (Need not be original NB). May not build at a NB with 3 or more damage.
New Zealand receives a Minor Factory to allow ANZAC Air builds. Quebec receives a NB to allow for Naval builds. The Central United States receives a NB to allow for additional prewar Naval builds.
This addresses Capital Ships and Bombers being built in newly conquered Territories. It should also be noted that UK may only build Air Units in UK at game start. This makes the UK AB a prime Axis target.

[beelee]

@Black_Elk I'm just gonna look at the map for a while Think I'll make it my screensaver :grinning_face_with_sweat: :grinning_face_with_sweat: :grinning_face_with_sweat:

[Black_Elk]

haha right on!

The main reason I like to switch borders from white to black, or sz from light blue to dark blue and vice versa back and forth, is so that I can catch floating pixels and weirdness like that. Which tend to pop and jump out if I can isolate and then change the value of the colors for the switcheroo. So it's kinda utilitarian in that way I guess, but also makes for a kinda cool variety in design. Just depending on what people like for a look with their maps.

[TheDog]

@Black_Elk
This might help map making, currently in game;
Move
8 = 4 engined strategic bombers
4 = 1 or 2 engined dive/tactical bombers
3/4 = Fighters

Factories have their own AA and Air defence of 2 in 6 AA built in, players can add more AA or Fighter units.

Factories also have rail links built in, and all ground units have a total move of 3, Infantry move 3, Light Tank moves 3 when starting on a factory

Ships will probably move 3 on the big map.

I am trying not to give any pluses to movement for shipyards or airfields only rail links, but testing might prove otherwise.

[Black_Elk]

Sounds good. Here I blocked in some quick provinces for Spain and Sweden, Turkey and Iran and whatnot. I must have erased those when I was making the Global 1940 baseline from it. Anyway added some divisions back in just so those spots wouldn't look weird compared to the others heheh.

I added back in some provinces to Italy as well. We can revert to the defensive lines and the blocking of the previous draft if desired, but I just wanted to save one out that was a bit more carved up, for future reference.

Basically (going off the divisions below) we want everything in the north of Italy, Piedmont, Milan, Genoa, Venetia, Istria etc as a single tile right? like Cernel suggested. Then Tuscany Rome, and the Marche-Abruzzo space together as a single tile. Then the stuff at the bottom of the boot as a single tile. So basically 3 main territories in Italy, with the one the very top being the most important strategically. So having that TT be the fall back zone. Also for the fleet fallback, like either to Genoa sz or the Venice sz, when they start getting rolled up on by the Allies. Basically they should be dropping their new ships out of that northernmost tile, which would border both the Adriatic sz and the Ligurian sz. That makes sense to me, even if Rome and Sardinia are like the prestige tiles, the core should be up there in the Milan tile where the Industry was. A scenario set earlier, like WW1 or a pre-Unification era or whatever, could use the baseline draft that has Italy more busted up. But for WW2 we just collapse the smaller tiles into larger ones. I'd like to do the same tomorrow for Germany and clean those up a bit.

Here is a detail showing some units on Italy...

I just randomly slapped them down to give a sense of relative scale.

You can see there should be plenty of room if we group those TTs together.

I think we could probably fit 24 almost 30 units pretty comfortably into the larger TT ( the one comprising everything north of the Gothic Line), before the sculpts start spilling over.

Ships take up a little more room, since many are fairly wide at like 92px I think, but with some nice center seems like there'd be plenty of space to get the job done.