💥 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread

[JohnnyCat]

The quest for game Mechanics and Unit INTUITION:

Dear Devs,

I’m getting deep into the play testing of this game and now have some questions about how various units and game mechanics were/are intended by the devs.

1. The first is the bomber unit. In the basic A&A game the bomber is a sort of super unit. You roll for tech like heavy bombers and you likely win the game. And, inexplicably, the bomber can be used to significantly mess things up like enemy fleets.

This game is much more refined and I certainly appreciate that but I’ve yet to find any good purpose for this unit.

Sometimes 5-6 bombers can destroy a factory and that’s a great way to use them….. except that more often than not, and without any defending fighters (and there are no explicit AA units on this game), the bombers are decimated and the factory is barely touched. Hence this is not a viable use as I found they cannot be reliably used for destroying factories.

And apparently they cannot target sea vessels.

And there is no way they are cost effective in causing repair damage.

So what good are these things? Could you please provide some examples of how these units were intended to be used ?

THANK YOU

[wc_sumpton]

@thedog said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

What were you thinking?

I was thinking along the lines of what happens to these non-air-SBR units after the SBR attack. Basically, they disappear from the battle.

I've created a map property that would allow these units to patriciate in the territory battle.

Just was wondering if this was the reason for the removal of "isStrategicBomber". If I remember correctly, I seen it in 1.170, but when I went to check and test with 1.175, it was no longer there.

Just Ideas.

Cheers...

[wc_sumpton]

@johnnycat

The bomber, along with the tac-bomber, are the only 2 air units that can attack all ground units.

The bomber does between 0 and 2 SBR damage, while the tac-bomber does between 0 and 1. So even though they may survive the industry's built in AA fire, they may still miss their targets.

All units have built-in AA capabilities, so the AA gun was removed.

Cheers...

[beelee]

@wc_sumpton said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

I've created a map property that would allow these units to patriciate in the territory battle.

sweet Is this new java code that needs a prerelease or a custom property that you made with existing triplea ?

[wc_sumpton]

@beelee said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

sweet Is this new java code that needs a prerelease or a custom property that you made with existing triplea ?

Yep

While redoing my support code, I found a way to let SBR unit be included in the main battle. So yes I created a new property, and some code, but have not as of yet submitted it for prerelease.

Hopefully answered not answered.

Cheers...

[beelee]

@wc_sumpton said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

Hopefully answered not answered.

I'm thinking I'm gonna go with answered One of the big guns got approve it first I'm guessing

Well that's way cool ! I can see it being very useful.

If you can find a way for the AA hits to be able to fire back instead of death only or Have AirBattle able to use a different sided die would be super Cool too lol

Then I can have my Bmbr defend at 1 in 12 in a six sided game. Wanna do it for infrastructure aaGuns too ha ha ha

[Black_Elk]

@johnnycat

I think the bomber unit is problematic for a couple reasons, but mostly because the computer doesn't seem to know what to do with them.

In general I don't think units should be un-targetable and still able to hold a tile as a defensive unit, if that makes sense. I favor bonuses over maluses for all combat units, and a situation where nothing would ever be a hit 0 unit and still able to take or hold ground. The battle round limit allows a unit which cannot be targeted by enemy ground to lock a tile out of play and to me this feels a bit strange. I think there is a precedent in A&A for a unit which has a hitpoint but no defense value (the v5 AAgun) and a unit with no defense value and no hitpoint (the post v3 Transport). We tried a Strategic Bomber with no Hitpoint in the G40 HRs, which I feel might make sense, like where undefended strat bombers are basically destroyed the same way undefended transports would be destroyed in the modern A&A games. In A&A I think the bomber's most useful role is actually as a defensive unit that can move 1 hitpoint across 6 tiles. Everything else it does beyond that is a bonus in A&A. I'm not a huge fan of the way the standard rules work, but they do work. There is for sure a reason to purchase strat bombers in v5, since it's the most OP unit in all of A&A, and the Computer opponent uses them pretty effectively.

The difference in this scenario is that there are also Bunkers (which can be very hard to clear without bombers), and factories which can be completely destroyed via SBR which is extremely potent. I imagine the optimal use for the unit would be to spam enough that you can reliably destroy any given factory within one round of play, eg say x8 bombers for both UK and USA targeting a single Axis power until they are just nerfed off the front line or off the board entirely. If you can destroy a factory and prevent the opponent from placing units I think that's often worth whatever the cost in TUV from bomber attrition, because the enemy can't do anything to stop it, aside from pray to the dice gods. USA and UK can afford to do this. Germany and Japan can also pull it off. The smaller factions not so much, but even there having a 3rd power get in the mix for a triple team could be pretty deadly. The computer will never really use the bomber unit this way that I've seen, so to me it feels like a bit of an exploit doing it as the solo player. I think Air transports are the same, in that the computer doesn't know how to use them so I feel like I'm taking cheap shots against the machine if using them myself.

Current best use for bombers would seem to be bunker clearing or for SBR to kill the factories outright. Damage alone doesn't seem terribly useful, unless it's to set up a ground invasion that will then kill the factory on a teammates turn. I think right now the unit is somewhere between OP (the mass bomber factory killer) and borked (the bunker/defending bomber combo vs an enemy that attacks without Aircraft or after losing fighter aircraft to AAfire).

I've been playing vs Fast AI exclusively ever since that note was added to the launch infographic. I've noticed when doing this that the Computer will frequently airblitz into a tile with insufficient ground to ever take the tile, but where because air units can hard/impossible to target it allows for heavy TUV exchanges with much higher air attrition. The computer occasionally retreats but more often I see them press the attack, wipe a tile of units but then fail to take the TT. Or they'll go in with low or no fodder basically, is what I'm trying to say. Not sure what approach would be ideal for these things.

I think it's problematic though if a unit has a low attack value to begin with and can then be nerfed down to a 1 on d6 or d10 say or if it can be nerfed to 0. I think bonuses bringing the unit up to attack 3 or 4 would be better, like as a way to handle special targeting or terrain. Example would be instead of reducing the attack value of an attackers unit, to give a bonus to the defender or vice versa. Just all bonuses for the pips, +1 rather than -1, across the board. Whether that's a bonus from terrain or some form of combined arms targeting.

[wc_sumpton]

@beelee said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

If you can find a way for the AA hits to be able to fire back instead of death only or Have AirBattle able to use a different sided die would be super Cool too lol

Treat battle AA hits as not firstStrike may take some doing. As to different sided dice, just about everything makes a diceSides call, so just about everything could have a different diceSides.

@beelee said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

Wanna do it for infrastructure aaGuns too ha ha ha

AA attackes (aaGuns) already use different diceSides for both offence and defense.

You could add these to the Feature Request & Ideas section.

Don't know what would happen after that. Maybe get lucky and someone would look into it.

Cheers...

[beelee]

@wc_sumpton said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

just about everything makes a diceSides call, so just about everything could have a different diceSides.

this looks promising

[beelee]

@wc_sumpton said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

Don't know what would happen after that. Maybe get lucky and someone would look into it.

hee hee

[wc_sumpton]

@beelee said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

If you can find a way for the AA hits to be able to fire back instead of death only

This is really a tangled knot. TripleA was designed with aaGuns in mind, and they were only defensive fire at air units, and only during the first round of combat. This was a defensive use only.

When AA attacks were changed, the only thing that was changed for the order of battle was an offensive attack for AA was placed at the top of the order of battle, in effect taking away the defensive players chance at eliminating attacking units moving into the territory.

So, there it is a good idea badly implemented, like giving isStrategicBomber to non-air units, or bonus stacking for supportAttachments. But hay...

Cheers...

[JohnnyCat]

@wc_sumpton thank you. But I think I need to clarify.

A. In play testing I found the tac Bombers to be the best at attacking enemy ground units especially with bunkers.

And Tac bombers are essential for anti ship use.

Regular bombers were found to be useless at naval (they cannot hit those types) but I did not find them as useful as the tac bombers against ground units. Should they be????? I could be missing something here because they are rather rare in the game. But if they are in fact better than tac bombers against ground units I’ll invest more into them. It would be nice to see some sort of discrete evidence of their superiority such as a compilation of the dice rolls you just mentioned and I immediately forgot lol. Rolls of 2. Rolls of 1. Great to know but what’s the context???

Are we rolling 6-sided dice per the board game? Or 10-sided dice common in modern computer games.

Where is documentation on dice rolls, odds, and what it takes to hit. And what steps may come first such as AA or Air Battles????? I’ll. Need all that for writing up the comprehensive Gamers Guide/Operations Manual or whatever we’ll call this.

B. It also would be nice to get some sort of in game feedback re the AA fire. There seems to be A VERY WIDE set of results here. In one attack the 5 bombers wipe out a heavy factory - great game strat. But restart and do it again and the entire bomber attack is wiped out. So no, not a great game strategy if it cannot be relied upon. And volatility is fine but we have to know that. As it stands I have no idea and cannot find any in-game feedback or docs that would help me make a contentious decision on whether the use bombers to attack a factory.

And while there is a low luck option for general A&A game play, that option DOES NOT appear to affect bomber attacks on factories (are you calling that SBR?). Of course there is always a good chance that I’m simply not seeing something you guys see because I’m so impatient lol.

At very least I’d suggest a low luck option for bombers and AA along with more in game feedback and docs to explain all this.

Is there any option for turning on some sort of TUTORIAL TIPS??? I can imagine how awesome it would be for the game to see that you are about to commence a strategic combing run and, if the option is turned on, the player gets shown a mini tutorial right there !!!

C. Finally, BUT HUGELY IMPORTANT:

1. How do fighters work? What is their role in this game? I see “Air battle” in game play often but no docs on them. Do they defend against bombers? Why are there even air battles?

Do they work well against ships, or ground units???

What triggers an air battle?

I don’t just mean the option to intercept against battles in adjacent territories. Should I station these fighters with industries?

Speaking of those adjacent territory air interception options.

HOW COME EVERY TIME I AGREE to send interceptors THEY GET WIPED OUT??? No exception for a year of play and about a hundred games now. What am I not seeing?

2. What is the ongoing thread about strategic bombers have to do with this topic??? You guys are talking code… but it seems related to my concerns about bombers here.

———————
As I said you devs and this game IS GENIUS !!! And I am serious about this game possibly becoming (or at least being an example of a new genre) a new strategy game option for the millions of people out there like myself that are longing for something new in this genre.

I could see this thing taking off in a viral way once its packaged (metaphorically) and presented well.

In any case having lots of concise examples of play would be immensely helpful to everyone, and I’ll need lots of this for the manual.

So I’m looking to get some examples of battles that work. And those that do not.

If I am to do the user manual (and i sure intend to now) I’m gonna need that.

For example @beelee expressed some reaction to my skipping over the Russian defenders to capture a factory with one airborne and a mix of tac bombers and reg bombers. This was good to know since I have found almost zero use for airborne in this game given my lack of understanding of what they can and cannot do.

So @the_dog and @Black_Elk and @ezgaming PLEASE send me concise text examples of what works and what does not

Specifically I’m wanting a simple description of battles we would all experience and how best to succeed in attack and defense.

Examples:

TAKE A TERRITORY WITH AIRBORNE :: and I’d use my sneaky capture of Stalingrad that I mentioned earlier.

TAKE/DEFEND a CLEAR/FOREST/MOUNTAIN/MARSH Territory. I’d keep it simple but cover each of these.

So I’d want to convey how to best overcome a defense with 1 inf, 1 anti-tank and 1 bunker as a sort of control.

And then show various key differences for diff terrain.

Then i’d show how substituting the anti-tank unit with TWO inf is actually worse!!! Thus showing off the benefits of unit types on defense.

I’d then want to collect a bunch of similar examples of how best to attack a basic defense.

Am I asking for too much here lol???(.

I am truly trying to help here because I get the very distinct feeling that this games transcends the axis and allies simplicity and, very well may be, a natural replacement for Panzer General 2 and such games.

PS. I AM SHOCKED by the current “board game scene”. I’m new to Silly Valley having come from Chicago, but I joined a bunch of meetup gaming groups and I was absolutely stunned over the lack of knowledge or interest in strategy games such as this.

Excluding the “social games” people kept telling me that “ticket to ride” and “Catan” and some bird nest game WERE TRUE STRATEGY GAMES

WTF !?!?!?

Dozens of folks over the past three months. And this does not appear to be an aversion to “war games” which I can see with groups trying to lighten up the violence in many video games.

Instead These people tell me that they see Chess and Go as pure strategy games. And that makes sense.

But then they adamantly claim that the board games I just mentioned are the next closest thing.

But I see Catan and all the others as simple, RANDOM (RNG) Social games !! And my expressing that actually shocks people.

I feel as if I went to sleep in 2020 at the start f the pandemic only to wake up in 2024 to find myself in an alternate universe where WW2 games and any actual strategy game were never created and are unheard of.

What am I missing hahaha!???

[JohnnyCat]

PS. How come I cannot get @ The Dog to pop up when I type the “@“ character? What am I doing wrong?

[JohnnyCat]

@black_elk

Thank you as always. But some Qs:

You said:
“In A&A I think the bomber's most useful role is actually as a defensive unit that can move 1 hitpoint across 6 tiles.”

What is a tile? I guess what I call a territory. But what means “move a hot point across 6 tiles”??? Please use English for us Dummies!

“ There is for sure a reason to purchase strat bombers in v5, since it's the most OP unit in all of A&A”

What means “v5”

[JohnnyCat]

My apologies for the recent long text - no indentation or tabs response.

I’m new to this forum and just not sure how to post something in a readable format.

I have no idea if ```
even

And my last long post really has some hugely important content so I’m gonna try to repost it

OMG. there’s gotta be a better way hahahaha

[wc_sumpton]

@johnnycat said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

PS. How come I cannot get @ The Dog to pop up when I type the “@“ character? What am I doing wrong?

Yea I know. There have been many respondents in the topic, that his name doesn't show right off the bat. I do @ Th, then he shows up around midway down the list. Or you could just type in TheDog.

Cheers...

[wc_sumpton]

@johnnycat said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

My apologies for the recent long text - no indentation or tabs response.

None needed, you have offended no one. I for one welcome your comments.

Has to HTML, simple bold, italic, lists, strikethrough, etc.. are listed at the very top, just under the title but before the edit box. Beyond those I'm not sure I could help with more.

Cheers...

[wc_sumpton]

@johnnycat said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

A. In play testing I found the tac Bombers to be the best at attacking enemy ground units especially with bunkers.

I will trust you on this, tac bombers attack at 2 and may receive bonus from command units, armor units and fighters. So, they are very effective in this roll. Bombers, on the other hand only attack at 1 and only receive command bonus.

@johnnycat said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

How do fighters work? What is their role in this game? I see “Air battle” in game play often but no docs on them. Do they defend against bombers? Why are there even air battles?

Fighter attack/defend at 1 and they can't hit infantry. But they can give tac bombers a bonus, so they play more a support role.
There are two types of air battles. Interceptors' vs escorts and bombers and scrambles into a main battle. After the attacker completes all their combat-movement, the computer calculates all intercepts and scrambles and gives the defender a choice to move those units. Prior to an SBR run, if the defender has air units in the same territory either by placement or intercept movement, the air battle will show. There will be another selection box for the defender to choose the number of interceptors to use, the default is 0. Choosing the default at 0 means the defender is retreating his interceptors from the air-battle. Retreated interceptors are returned back to their original territory. If the defender selects more than 0, then there will be an air battle, which may last up to 3 rounds. Surviving interceptors are retreated back to their own territories.
Scrambling works about the same, with the major different being that surviving, not retreated, may join the main battle.

Cheers...

[wc_sumpton]

@johnnycat

I'm really sorry that I cannot give you more information on gameplay examples. My play of this map was during it early development. I, more or less, now just read the xml to get a feeling for the gameplay. I see problems and I try to solve them, either in the xml, or directly inside the engine code.

I'm not a developer, since java-OOP gives me fits. Most of my work is brute force, so to date I have had only 1 change pass. But I keep trying. Ask @beelee and @TheDog (see I almost typed out his whole tag.).

Cheers...

[beelee]

@wc_sumpton said in 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:

Ask @beelee and @TheDog (see I almost typed out his whole tag.).

actually ask Elk as i've never played it