Mega New Elk WIP

[wc_sumpton]

@black_elk

French have a lot of 2PUs territories, so it should take longer to reduce them. So, I'll try 1:3. Also all PUs are removed.

Cheers...

[wc_sumpton]

@black_elk

MNE WIP '40 version 1.35.13.zip
(notifications.properties included)

aaGun can now be taken a casualty
Peking-Tientsin is now Chinese Capital at 2PUs and a damaged factory_minor added
Chungking changed to 1PUs
LoP (Loss of Protection)
Ownership of 2/3 PUs territory w/o factory, granted factory_minor
No ownership of 2/3 PUs territory will receive 1 infantry per every 2 territories owned
May place 3 per territory up to a maximum of 8 units per territory during placement

Cheers...

[Black_Elk]

@wc_sumpton Looking sweet!

I like this very much. In terms of a general design philosophy and the basics on the rules and presentation, I like when we can have that sort of universality or symmetry to how the stuff works between factions just so it's easy to pick up.

Some random spitballing. So right now VCs are sorta more incidental and can of course be dialed. The starting VCs and bases are visual cues and gameplay drivers, but really it's more down to controlling the minor factory hubs and the back and forth there to control production/income round to round. This vs the placement restrictions generally (like how many hit points each faction can bring to bear, and from what locations.) Specific rules and win conditions by VC or capital capture/purse stealing and cash, those just need to be sorta stated, and then helpfully clarified on the map with a visualization. So it's nice when we can say things like "territories worth 2 PU" or VCs, and have it sort of generalize in a way that's easy to parse at a glance. I dig it

The concept of Original ownership for territory/VC etc, that is somewhat difficult to handle from the standpoint of a map that could service multiple scenarios or timelines but I think this will work. I think we can start with the 40 I mean for that. So on the physical boards, there is always some standard treatment there for the default ownership painted on the board, I mean that is the baked-in, then we have the control roundel which can be used to change starting control around. So starting control is sorta what we see displayed when we first launch right, and it's hard if we want to go back to say 1939 from 1940, to have the player guessing at what the original owner control would be from that standpoint. Basically to know whether a territory will be liberated for themselves or a teammate, if that wouldn't be clearly indicated from the visual on the map somehow at game launch. Reason I mention is because, things like original owner USSR or China, for territories under occupation at the start date. Here I think we just go by the World War II global arrangement, and key it off 40ish.

I think if we can just handle 1940-45 that would be pretty satisfying in itself. 1936-9 is pretty ambitious and would likely require more rules overhead, perhaps a different production spread and handling for original ownership, I'd table it for now as something we can attempt down the line. Whereas for this one 1940 can be more starting flavor. Really the scenario is designed to jump us from 1940 well into 1941 by basically the first turn of the game.

In the way I envision, G1 is essentially the 1940-41 recap turn. Really everyone's first turn is like that in some way, catching the player up in a compressed timeline. Like a film reel montage. The timeline there is condensed, say Fall of France into early Barbarossa. In the same way Britain attacks into Italian Somaliland on their first turn and makes a little hit vs Regia Marina, but elsewhere is more 41. Japan's turn captures the 1940-41 as well. So effectively the first 2 game rounds are catching us all up and well into a 1941-2 ish dynamic. The familiar one from the classic game - total war conditions, where all factions are already belligerents and the politics are more simplistic.

For Subs I think we will just need a very simplistic way to describe and visualize how their placement might work more generally. I like that there is a convention for this now on a standard board that we can lean on. I think that will definitely help to support the concept.

Some basic wording like 'can place into adjacent Convoy zones' and then we just find an easy way to describe that adjacency or visualize that stuff on the map. Determining where those spots might be and just making them real easy to spot at a glance. Usually we got some kind of flag to make it make sense and then use the starting units there to indicate control. Effectively allowing players to place at a range there would be the idea.

This could potentially be something we reserve for a tech tree or a more advanced game layered on top of the more basic too, I'm still not sure. The idea being that Germany might have some kind of placement bonus for their subs which allows this to happen, as part of their standard tech, or standard unlocks that maybe happen in the second round. Perhaps each faction gets 1 special tech, but since that would be an asymmetry, these could be things that are staged in and made very clear. So if it happens in round 2 as opposed to round 1, might be easier. I'm still trying to think about how to introduce these concepts and one easy way would be something like that.

Example on the first turn of the game, everyone has a tech advance/prompt that reads something like "Factory Rail: grant +1 movement to ground units" so they're all on the same page. Maybe Germany gets an "Advanced Subs" standard tech, which allows them to place at a distance in the way we were describing. Other techs could similarly go to other Nations for something like National flare or period/historical flavor, though I think I would exercise restraint here, and make that more of an option on/off for now, just to keep things simplistic while we dial the production and starting unit spreads. Could be a way to do it. For now I'm pretty happy with the basic thrust of the thing. I think it's pretty serviceable and should be adaptable for other purposes, though it's nice to have something fun we can just sorta hammer away at. The computer did surprisingly well FastAI. I think the Machine struggles a bit with it's transports, probably owing to the fact that it's still sorta moving those as if it were playing Revised or Classic, rather than the post v3 style transports, but the impact there of their transports goofs is not quite as insane just because they have more cash for transport attrition/replacement. The Fast/HardAIs purchasing behavior seems to stabilize around the player after a few turns, so they still put me through my paces. I've got another game going as Italy right now hehe

Good times! great work

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ps. FastAI playing the long game against itself hehe

I tapped in as France after 16 rounds. I think the computer maybe had a KJF plan and to hold the center wedge, but then it sorta went bust. When they let computer Germany overrun the south and lock them out of the Med, things started to turn back the other way. Computer USA is pushing into Manchuria from the north Pacific route, sorta leaving Brits to their own devices in Europe and Africa. Pretty entertaining to observe. FastAI is fast, but also cautious. It likes to halo around the periphery and stack forward slow and steady, but it's kinda amusing to watch how it stabilizes it's fronts to battle for control over the long haul. Probably it goes 20 rounds against itself I'd imagine, which to me indicates a pretty good production spread. Basically doing what I was hoping it might there.

2025-3-12-Mega-New-Elk-1940_France_Fast_16.tsvg

pps. Oh also one last thought, for USA, since the machine doesn't buy factories really, I think there should be another factory_minor on the Eastern seaboard, just for parity with what's over on the pacific side. I'd just put one in Carolina since it borders both those sea zones. Abstractly the starting factories sorta cover all the surrounding tiles in much the same way that the rail +1 reflects the same. So it's more about just giving them enough placement hitpoints per turn for both theaters. I think should be sufficient to have them pushing in both directions at once, least for how the computer plays typically.

For the Capital display, I think an easy solution would be to do a show Capital marker flags for that, and then it will indicate the specific location if there would be any confusion players can option that on. Right now it would use the large flag puck, but could be whatever. Just a way to indicate which spot if player's want the option. Right now if I set to true in map props it will display sorta right over the VC star, but I can move the stars in the VC place so it displays more cleanly, was going to do that anyway to sorta get the stars in the right spots. But anyway, that should make it easy to see.

[Black_Elk]

Oh also one last last thing, for now I would prob deactivate the direct Sub link into the Atlantic gap, and we can hold the idea in reserve till the rest is dialed, cause currently I think it is working both ways. Meaning Allied transports are sending their Infantry units into France or to amphib from those zones. Took me a few runs to see that going on.

On the China front I think I will just need to retune a bit for the starting factory in Peking under Japanese control, since they can spring a bit harder from there now. Otherwise felt pretty good. I'm ordering Pizza tonight for sure! lol

[Black_Elk]

Few more quick thoughts, just cause I was looking at N. Carolina for the factory_minor edit there.

So for now I think I'd table any sea zone or territory polygon adjustments, since I don't want to get lost in the weeds on that. Current map is basically working and the work there is basically done, so I think just riffing off what we got in place at the moment will be more expedient. Mainly cause it takes so long to dial the relief after doing that stuff in the base and such hehe. But it is easier, once the whole thing is sorta in place and working, to then revisit some specific spots on the board to make some adjustments. Clean up the geo on that. Buff out a river here or there on the relief so that the player will assume contour=river or mountain or whatever geo feature. There are still some vestigial remains from earlier maps too, and maybe a few spots that could be tightened up to reflect the 1940s start.

Example, along the Central and East Coast of USA, here I think some contours can be cleaned up. Example, enlarge "Chicago" rename to Illinois. Take instead of Washington DC as a telescoped tile, to just like put it in Virginia and redraw that contour around the Chesapeake so we got something looks more like Maryland. Some combinations might make more sense than others like just folding whatever into New England, or trying to squeeze Jersey and New York together. I mean if it was like an 1812 scenario or whatever, we'd probably want a slightly different handling, but then again sorta gets lost in the weeds. In some respects it's probably tit for tat, because elsewhere on the board some definite liberties taken. I could likely be redrawing the map for ages if I get too particular or too precious with it. Still we can pretty easily add a reshaped polygon back into the thing, once the basic thing is all put together and sort working and hitting the right beats generally.

Also the whole idea of layering on top of it a convoy system or money in the water, new ways to get subs doing something fun that seems sensible or recalls other newer boards. Should be fun to tinker with it

For sea zone polygon adjustments, those are somewhat simpler to add in than edits to the polygons on land. For just sorta quickly strongarming the relief I mean. The current geometry feels pretty serviceable to me though, so not really sure if it's needed. Anyhow, point being certainly doable at some later point, or if it may allow a more usable version of staging zones for things like subs. I just figure since that's a more advanced type of play that we could table it for now, get the more basic thing at scale then return to the ideas if they seem like map adjustments would be needed for it.

[wc_sumpton]

@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:

Meaning Allied transports are sending their Infantry units into France or to amphib from those zones.

What you forgot to mention was that this was the AI player that was doing this. This is another "AI" can do violation, because it does not use the same movement/placement rules as a Human player. It's a common problem, but at least for combat, it does follow the same rules.

I can remove them for the next update.

Cheers...

[Black_Elk]

@wc_sumpton Oh yeah good call. It was the AI player for sure. I think it was computer Britain that did the move where I first noticed. It was a pretty tricky play on their part. Like as if they had cracked the computer German enigma code hehe. They decided Bordeaux had to go before G had much chance to get their subs out and prowling hehe

[wc_sumpton]

@black_elk

When the AI is checking to unload transports (amphibious assault). It checks for connecting territories. To create a canal, the two territories must have a connection (<connection t1="Bordeaux" t2="103 Sea Zone"/>). This connection allows the AI to perform the unload. A Human player is checked to see if the unload is through a canalAttachment, but the AI player does not check for canalAttachment. This error can be traced back to 1.9, and maybe ever before. There are maps that create special "Air Canals" (Flying over Chile from 065sz to Pampas) but these also allow the AI to unload to Pampas. I don't know if loading is block.

Again, this has been known for a long time.

Cheers...

P.S And yes there is a way to create these air-ways, as long as they pass through the impassable territory, no over.

Cheers...

[Black_Elk]

Ok ran a few more games, just sorta focusing on the Pacific side to see how things held up with the Peking change. Since Japan and the Allies reset a bit there, with a more of a press towards the North initially, rather than stacking around Chunking/Yunnan - probably just from the FastAI wanting to control capitals or get closer to them, so I tried to put that one under the microscope. Upside is that the Soviets send a bit more support into China now, downside is that China itself spawns fewer HP per turn owing to the control dynamic there, and also the turn order sequence that has USSR moving before China, and China moving before Britain. To counterbalance the Japanese rail on the coast, I think I would try just adding a few more starting units to China, in a rear position to hold that early Japanese springboard in check. I tried 3 inf 3 art 1 fighter added to Sikang. This gives them a total of 15 artillery and 3 flying tigers plus whatever infantry fodder or additional artillery they can muster round to round. I think it should be enough for them to hold the line, provided their computer teammates stay active in the region and keep sending support round to round.

Then on the USA Atlantic side just added the factory_minor so they can spawn 3 more hitpoints into that theater per turn, to counter the 3 hitpoints Germany can now bring from Marseille. The change there made Axis control of the Med a bit more likely, since Germany is sorta the opposite of Italy - high cash but lower placement (least into the water into the Med). So when Italy had control of that minor, they just didn't have the cash to drop much in the way of a pocket fleet for the western med. G is a bit more flush now though, and esp. after G1, so I think Allies/USA just need a few more placement on that side of the board to keep pace.

I rather like that the German baltic fleet is under pressure from an Air blitz, although currently this is coming more from the threat of Soviet Bombers on G2/G3 (whereas usually in older boards that's more the job of the RAF). Still, it has a nice tension where Germans can be tempted to do naval expansion, but because of their coastal production restrictions (hp per turn) and difficult coverage vs Aircraft, it can be a double edged sword. Or similarly where trying to guard the fleet with aircraft can keep fighters locked in position for the scramble, rather than moving forward for stack defense on the ground. I just like that little pendulum swing, since it recalls to mind the situation on other A&A boards. It was a little hard to gauge the impact though, cause of the whole sz 108/103 thing - it had FastAI allies resetting a bit and coming more direct at Bordeaux, or up into Scandinavia/Denmark, rather than crashing the party into Normandy. Also where Axis were holding onto North Africa for a bit longer with a fleet build in the Med, sorta stalling the USA arrival down there or vs Italy from the South. But then I think just giving the USA a couple more hitpoints per turn out of a factory_minor eastern seaboard may help Allies to get out just a little sooner.

Otherwise only thing I can think of for now, would be to raise Baghdad to 2 PU, just so that there can be another Production lily pad contested as a counterbalance to Baku, Egypt/India. So whether Allies or Axis get there first, could be part of the tip on the scales by sides. Especially when the board sorta resets for the endgame around controlling the middle of the board.

Here's a quick edit mode save with those starting unit adjustments mentioned. I left everything else the same, so as not to shift the pattern too much.

2025-3-13-Mega-New-Elk-1940.tsvg

[wc_sumpton]

@black_elk

MNE WIP '40 version 1.35.14.zip

Baghdad changed to 2PUs
Connection/Canal to 103/108 sz has been removed
New starting setup by @Black_Elk

Cheers...

[Black_Elk]

Lookin' good! I ran a quick trial while cooking dinner Fast vs itself. Computer Japan stumbled a bit with their initial advance, and then got rolled back across the middle. Seemed like Allies were trying a KJF again, but this time with the Soviets in the lead on a big breakout to storm Korea! lol Computer Japan recovered a bit and it looked like computer Germany might save their bacon by snatching Moscow, but then USSR repositioned. This time Axis had better luck with their fleets up north, slightly less luck with their med fleets. Allies just started the push back across North Africa. Not too shabby

I think having so many hitpoints on their doorstep refocused Japan's attention, but it seems to work pretty well, sorta powder keg to rng, sorta same deal as the med and a few other spots. Mostly on account of the way the machine will edge it's fights, but I think it should work out well enough to stabilize the various theaters during a solo. Or one can hope

Tapped in round at the end of round 7 to survey view

2025-3-13-Mega-New-Elk-1940_fast_france_7.tsvg

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ps. After dessert trial

So another save around the same point, different game to 6 rounds, Fast vs itself.

Here computer Japan did somewhat better vs China, but somewhat worse vs the USN at the 'battle of Midway' lol. On the Atlantic side Germans seemed to have the luck going their way early on at Algeria and with a carrier buy, but then the USA showed up and crashed their party in Tunisia setting off a big exchange and some back and forth. Computer Italy ended up taking over the spot at Tunisia. USA tried to get the drop on Normandy and Brits have been harassing the coast. Both theaters seem to be pushing hitpoints now, like for the USSR in central asia and such. So far so good!

Tapped in end of round 6

2025-3-13-Mega-New-Elk-1940_fast_rematch_france_6.tsvg

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pps. Third Trial, night cap hehe

So in this game Computer China whiffed hard and lost one their flying tigers in a round 2 attack. Computer Japan was quick to take advantage so they faired somewhat better up the middle early on, despite the Soviets dropping in with heavy support. Over all the balance there felt pretty tight like it could tip either direction, might hinge on a difference of like 1 or 2 hitpoints saved/lost to attrition in the first few rounds. Pretty good overall though I think. In round 4 computer Japan got tripped up trying to unload for an amphib assault into Magadan vs a Russian submarine. Here again I think the AI just doesn't understand really that it's play a post v3 transport game rather than a classic/revised transport game, so that was a snafu for them, losing a lot of TUV in one goof. 2 stacked Transports, 3 aircraft into an attack with no amphib fodder support, sometimes those are just the breaks for the machine. Despite that loss, they still recovered position, just with a bit of a delay on coverage there. On the Atlantic side also some variability from the first few trials. There Germans got into Algeria a bit sooner and a bit cleaner, which seemed to have an impact on how computer Allies then positioned against them. By now computer Allies are in the med and starting to take some shots at Naples. Up north though the Germans made a breakout with their fleet, captured Svalbard and blocks some of the UK approaches. Should be interesting

Here's the save at the end of round 5. Usually where I try to tap in and see if there's a big turning point or a big pivot move from one computer team or the other hehe

2025-3-13-Mega-New-Elk-1940_fast_third_france_5.tsvg

When I get a few hours later on tonight, I'll toss my hat into the ring and start seeing how it feels in the drivers seat. But from the passenger view, it was lookin' pretty solid I think

[beelee]

@black_elk @wc_sumpton

Update to git

Transylvania was fitting nicely and I had already done danzig, thus why they changed.

Detailed update coming, wanna get this out before it becomes dated

Edit
hmm ... the Fctrys still not showing damage. I will add "isFactory" back so they work correctly next time I update to git.

I am just gonna focus on pu_place, name_place and place. I'm gonna shorten names and go with ones I've heard of over ones I haven't.

Not an expert but if I've never heard of it, the average N American hasn't either.

Obviously these can change as needed.

git link https://github.com/beelee1/mega_new_elk

[Black_Elk]

@beelee Right on! I just grabbed it now

I was playing as Italy solo earlier, under that last templet. Pretty fun! It felt sorta like classic with x999 inf thing, but then that did seem to produce an interesting game, as the AI purchasing was better. I just kept to the limit at x3 for myself, but anyhow, Allies definitely came at me! I focused on fleet first, then into some light tank drive and big infrastructure investment into Baghdad, although now we're more into a managed defense of the home front lol.

We managed to stand the computer Americans up at Naples, but alas we could do nothing to prevent Overlord into Normandy! They're in France pretty deep now. I pressed hard vs the Middle East, but then now we are getting ejected from North Africa as well. Bit of a scramble. I'm made a mad dash into to India since our pals the computer Japanese we're advancing in force. Now we're racing to grab Gabon - Trying to swing the momentum back in our favor! hehe

Good times, mad science hehe

2025-3-13-Mega-New-Elk-1940_Italy_9.tsvg

[beelee]

@black_elk said in Mega New Elk WIP:

t felt sorta like classic with x999 inf thing, but then that did seem to produce an interesting game, as the AI purchasing was better. I just kept to the limit at x3 for myself

Oh ? Is the AI overproducing at Fctrys ? I didn't know it could do that.

Glad you having fun with it. I made the eclipse but bedtime now

[Black_Elk]

@beelee yeah pretty wild! It was a contest for sure - Good times vs the machine!

Oh cool just download and fired it up. Lookin' clean! Nice work

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DEt_djGGAY6Oxl8_G3qmspUMTqMRW5nU/view?usp=sharing

Oh also here is a unit set that has all the factory_disabled images. Once I put those in with the others I didn't have any issues for the graphics stuff

Units

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10GzukQNlAFCZMkhmuyL9ZQc-IsVss7p8/view?usp=sharing

Haha sounds good go catch some snooze and rest well!

[Black_Elk]

Just for a heads up on that last GIT, the zip there has the master folder unizipping into another nested master folder of the same name. Still fires, just another layer in the directory there. Oh also, using that most recent xml the default and 39 would still show the games list which would kick off the missing game when clicked on, so I think those would just need to be tucked away in that working drafts folder? So it's not looking for them in the directory when downloaded. I would name the current wip game UHD WIP 1940-45, or something along those lines for a catch all.

[wc_sumpton]

@black_elk

Yes, I noticed that also. So try this:
UHD WIP 1940-45.zip
This contains a map.yml to replace the one in the primary directory.

Cheers...

[Black_Elk]

Looks good!

Random play balance idea, so rather than introducing UK Pacific as a kind of sub faction (with it's own purchasing phase and such) I think it's much simpler to just keep Britain/India as a single faction. That said, because it creates a much higher baseline production/income level for them, we could explore something like a "Commonwealth Defense" or "Lend Lease" "Victory Debts" or whatever we want to call it, but basically where they just get dinged every turn with some added cost in PUs to running the empire.

So say for example that they're bank rolling Anzac, which would be similar to India in Global but just sorta understood to be applied in this case to Anzac. Not actually, but in the abstract justification. Sun never sets and all hehe. Or I mean doesn't have to just be Anzac, it could be sorta all the Allies. To me this could just be an abstraction/catch-all, so sorta building into it there the whole idea of support for France and China or the other Allies which had already been overrun in the Axis advance. The whole team in exile, sorta camped out in London, but on the UK's dime? hehe

Something similar could be done for USSR, where they're somehow understood to be also bankrolling what's happening in China. I don't think it's needed just yet, but it would be a simple way to balance the totals in a more cumulative way. As opposed to just collapsing a ton of tiles or making a bunch of British and Soviet spots worth zero (the usual method) instead it could just be sorta tacked on generically. Not sure there what the actual cost might be, but I think that's a way to rationalize an added burden when the PUs are counted for them. I think any time an asymmetry is included for how factions are handled, it's helpful if this is framed out in advance and made easy to count/calc.

To me this could be something simple like a flat rate cost in PUs per turn, say 10-20-30 PUs, whatever might be needed ultimately and as a balancing mechanism by sides, sort of alternative to bid. Anyhow, just a spitball. I'd table for now, but to me it makes sense. Effectively an inverse war bond for the British or USSR, as a way to keep their totals a bit more manageable when compared with the Axis team, if that's needed. They do get gobbled up on quite a bit though, so their swing on income/production can be pretty extreme in both those cases. Not really sure if it would be needed, but could be held as an option in reserve.

[beelee]

@black_elk

oh I just added "map" not the yml too. That extra folder still there too ? I'll check wc's and see if he was able to get rid of it.

So we need even more Fctry images for it to work as is ? Because when I added "isFactory" back in, my images showed up. Well, I'll check what you have.

Edit
So it looks as if you need the "disabled" fctrys to make it work. That probably means we don't need the "factory_hit" ones then. Also can probably get rid of "factory" and just keep the major and minor ones.

A lot of the tech disabled ones are missing. I'll go ahead and put together another units folder with the missing disabled ones and get rid of the other stuff.

Edit 2
@Black_Elk I don't get the extra folder on dl. Also, the "-master" at the end doesn't need removed anymore. I think that's only if you try and run it in 2.5 but IDK for certain.

Anyway, I just slammed in your units folder for now and added wc's map.yml

We can streamline the units folder somewhere down the line. I'll add the above in next update.

[wc_sumpton]

@beelee

If you take the little emblem of the airfield, remove the flag-buoy for the harbor, then all these units, including the factory_major, factory_minor and factory_upgrade are all the same (with the bunkers, bunker_small, etc..), and can be moved to the units folder and shared by all players. This will cut down on maintaining all these separate icons within each player unit folder. It will also decrease the size of the download file.

Cheers...