By TheTrooper Re: TripleA for Dummies : The Noob's "How to PBEM Guide"
Order Of Losses (OOL) and a little LowLuck (LL) explained:
This may seem elementary to some, but even when I first started LL, it took awhile to really wrap my head around the overall impact it has on some key battles, and just what the hell LL was.
So, in case my words aren't always clear (I have 6 windows open on my browser, 15 total tabs of programs running, listening to iTunes, and between this, if I'm actually at my desk, I'm also reading books for school!)...but, just in case my words aren't clear, I took the time to add pictures for this.
First a word about subs in LL:
Just like RegDice (or OOTB-Out Of The Box Rules) Subs can NOT hit planes, no matter what, so even if they defend at a "2" it wouldn't matter in adding up any total offense or defense for LL. Also, when subs are present, their LL total Atk/Def power is added up separately for the Preemptive Strike Rolls--more on this later.**
Ok, I chose this particular battle for a few different reasons:
- it occurs quite often (and usually with a variance of 1 or 2 subs, and possibly in SZ 5, 6, or 7
- it is a battle that helps explain LL without getting too complicated
- it is a perfect example of a battle that requires the attacker asking for a OOL from their opponent.
So, words version first:
If I am Germany, I have a sub, a trans, and a destroyer: 0 (against air) + 1 + 3 = 4 for defense. I need a 4 or less to get 1 hit on your attacking RAF.
UK attacked with 2 ftrs and 1 bmbr: 3 + 3+ 4 = 10. Divide by 6, UK gets 1 hit automatically, and then need a 4 or less to get the "extra"/"plus 1" hit. But, UK rolled a 5, so only one hit.
So, because my sub can not hit any attacking unit, I choose it as my 1st casualty, because I still have a 4/6 (or 2/3) chance in hitting a second plane if UK remains, and after my defense roll of a 1, the UK attack value is lowered to 7.
If UK stays for a second round, I have a 5/6 chance of my destroyer surviving for a round 3, and I still have a 4/6 chance of hitting another plane. Then if I did hit, UK'd be in danger of a bomber vs. destroyer scenario in round 3 if they did not retreat.
So, see the Graphic example for a longer scenario spelled out from beginning to end in words and pictures.
About OOL: Let's say in this particular event that the attacker went through the motions and forgot to (or did not know better--this forum is for Noobs) ask for an OOL and sends the file to the Axis player. Unless the Attacker chose the exact OOL the attacker wanted, it's going to cause a debate, or at least an awkward moment.
In this same SZ 5 battle, You may have wanted to submerge the sub, and that would be your call, but I would not (for example). Some players may choose to save the subs, some choose to try and kill the Brit planes...and some people will ask for an OOL for EVERY round...in which you have to roll the die, then click on the SAVE section on top left and save the file and send it to them for every round of combat. Its can be a pain/lengthy process in larger battle, but sometimes it IS that crucial.
So, for the scenario in the picture provided, say the German OOL is: sub, transport, destroyer. The sub can't fight back, but can be used for a casualty, and thus increase my chances of killing two British fighters...and in this case, since UK got only 1 hit in the opening move, and Germany did too, it causes to UK to think about pushing a 2nd or 3rd round.
But....if the battle was already fought, and the OOL was not asked for? Now what?
Personally, I'd say this is up to the two players in the challenge, but I would say a default reasoning would be the same view I have: the file is reloaded back to that exact point of the questionable OOL battle, and the result of round 1 made to stick--and from there an OOL declared and the attacker decides to press attack or retreat.
I argue that the Round 1 rolls stick, because those rolls already went through MARTI and are "official," and starting the whole battle over could give an advantage to one or the other player.
I know...it can be argued that in a subsequent round of combat, the desired OOL didn't matter (say for example, Germany's Dest/Trans rolled a 5 in the 2nd round, so "it doesn't matter." That's a fallacy, because it DOES matter. Would UK still press the attack if they were facing 2/3 attack vs. 50/50 in just the Destroyer? That cannot be answered after the fact, but only in that moment, and the absence of asking for an OOL negated everything after round 1. That is why the First Round should be reloaded and only that round, and then press on from there with the OOL.
Again, that can all be avoided with the simple rule: if in doubt: ASK FOR AN OOL. And 95% of Naval Battles with mixed Naval units will require an OOL!
** Ok, little scenario to further explain the subs in LL:
I have 3 subs, 1 Aircraft Carrier (AC), and 2 fighters in defense (Attacking forces won't matter to explain this).
So, in LL, my subs first strike is 3 x 2 =6. I will automatically get one hit with my subs.
Then the Attacker fires, and then I get my defense rolls for remaining units:
AC+2 Ftrs = 3 + 4 + 4 = 11. Divide by 6, I get one automatic hit and then need a "5 or less" for a 2nd hit.
Round 2. I lost 1 unit, and chose a sub. So, First Strike: 2x2= 4. No automatic hit, I roll my one die, and a "4 or less" gets a hit. Rinse and Repeat.
I hope this all makes some kind of sense.
If not, or there are more questions, please keep posting, or if you're shy to be the guy asking a dumb question you can send them to me via PM or via email: the _AAA_trooper@yahoo.com.
But, you know what they say....there are no stupid questions......
...just stupid people.
-Trooper Posted on: 2009/7/11 0:28
Another Question/comment from the field:
what am I supposed to do to check and make sure that others are using MARTI (dice servers) correctly. Is it just in good faith. I get all the emails from marti but I dont know what they mean or how to use them. I would be happy just seeing the stats for what they did on their turn, movement, combat etc... how do I blend these marti emails in with the game?
as far as Marti and pairing it up with the game....you can open the game file you receive and at the top go to the top tab GAME, and then to VIEW HISTORY. Here you can see what dice were rolled in the game's history every step of the way, and then pair it up with the dice server e-mails in your inbox.
If there is ANY discrepancy, then something is fishy....MORE SO if there was no explanation given in the e-mail that contained the file!! So, even if a "4" would hit, and a "3" is in the history, but a "2" is in the Marti e-mail, then something isn't right, and you should ask your oppoent about the difference.
Once cause of this (a reason for cheating, and cheaters...don't take notes here!) is that players will have an idea of what they want to do, and buy their units based off what they think the end result of their combat will be...then the combat goes all wrong, and they need different items to place...so they will give you a story about computer crashing, power outage...whatever, and the dice won't match because they went back in local and fixed it.
If this happens 1-maybe 2 times, then its probably legit....more than that, they are playing out the combat to see what to buy. ***This doesn't happen very often anymore!!!
Also, if they did have something like that happen, they SHOULD be upfront and honest and tell you, if you find it on your own with an email/history mismatch, something's normally up. Also, ANY EDIT MODE changes will reflect in HISTORY!!!
oh...and computer crashes, power fails, etc....the game will still have autosave from the last phase....so, what I tend to do is SAVE after every combat...if I have 4 places I'm attacking, I will save after each one, just in case there is a problem.
bottom line--dice in history should match marti....if not, and there's an explanation given, the end results should still be EXACTLY the same. This isn't to scare you that everyone's a cheat...but they are out there, and unfortunately, sooner or later you will find one.
On the flip side, MOST players are just trying to have fun, get their fix of TripleA and do sometimes makes mistakes. I myself have been guilty of playing both games of a challenge at the same time, doing one whole game, and then moving on the the next...go to e-mail them and realize that I NEVER saved the first game once along the way!! Autosave only remembers the last "phase" of the last game, so it really sucks, to a) explain it to your opponent, and b) go back and recreate the combat --although EDIT MODE makes this MUCH EASIER NOWADAYS!!!
Still, mistakes do happen, so don't assume someone is cheating. I prefer to assume nobody is cheating, unless I just happen to notice something isn't right. Then I try to steer them back to do the right thing before calling them out.
Another note on files saves: although bung does his slightly different
There are probably 4-5 variants of this, but here's a happy median for the files, just so you know/understand what you're looking at:
where 333 is challenge #, and rd1 is round 1, and 1R is 1st turn, Russia.
or just 333_G1_rd1_1R where G1 is Game 1 of the challenge, and both players know who is playing what side. I prefer to see my name and the side, because I get confused easily!!
you always save the file FOR the next guy's move...so after R1, you just save the file as 2G...then 3B....4J....5A..... then after you do USA move, send back as rd2_2G.
Hi All - I thought that it might be helpful to explain how PBEM works, because in my personal experience, a lot of people like to play live, but they may have a perception that PBEM is too difficult, or don't know how to do it. So, here's an easy to follow guide !!
The process to play PBEM is very simple. First, you just need to register on the Marti dice server. This will allow you to get the dice rolls for each and every round of battle. The link is here:
Next, the process is the following. Your opponent will make his normal moves, and any results from the dice will come to you basically real-time. Your opponent will then save the game file (or the program has an automatic option as well), and send you an email with the newly updated game file.
Once received, you simply follow the same steps:
download the file that your opponent sends to you in an easy to find folder
start TripleA software
click "open saved game"
click on the file and then click "open"
then, click on "start PBEM"
then, click on "play"
After that, you just make your moves, and then save the file and send it back to your opponent in an email !
Very simple, once you get the hang of it !!
If you have any questions, please feel free to let me know, and I am happy to play a few sample moves with you by PBEM if you need assistance. My email = firstname.lastname@example.org
I understand the examples given, I've sacrificed many subs, a plane instead of an INF to capture an important territory, or BS to save an ACC and fighters, so choosing who dies and when is clear.
So I guess to summarize and state the unstated, we are to write down each loss, in the order that they are taken off the board, for every round of combat, so as to avoid possible frustrations.
Is that what is expected of us when someone asks for an OOL?
@cradge Correct. Essentially, any time the defenders order of casualties is ambiguous then you ask them for OOL and the defender then responds with the order they like their casualties taken. If its rather complex, the defender can even ask to roll 1 round at a time then ask for casualties for each round but that is fairly rare. In revised, this situation doesn't occur that often probably just some naval battles and possibly if you are attacking a stack of defenders that have bombers and the odds are close. Other games this occurs much more frequently as they have more complex unit sets.
@redrum Thank you.
I wonder if it would make sense that the player who will be defending is required to request upfront, where he demands a stop for a "situational OOL".
For example, I'm the Allies. I have a British fleets in sz7 and sz12 that concerns me as the "situational OOL" goes, on defense. Maybe it would be better that the British must say to Axis player (during the post).
"I would like to micro manage my OOL for any attacks on sz7 or sz12."
This should resolve any potential issues, while at same time not placing the conflicting responsibilities on the attacker, of reminding the enemy to ask for it.
@general_zod Often players do this for simpler maps but often times on larger maps, its hard to realize all the various potential attacks.