EXP G40 Game 4 Trout vs JCat
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So the game is preventing my USA fleet from passing over the subs so that I can invade Southern Europe.
This game still confuses me at times
The game is not letting my ships past the subs and I thought that sub cannot block so what is happening here?
Thanks
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Nope went to bed early. Just got up
Feel like I should be getting ready to go fishing or head out to the fields Still a couple months before the 20 hour days kick in for the lads lol Glad I only did that part time lol Bouncing around on a little boat on a large body of water not my preferred way to make a living
I will look at it now. Sometimes you may need to move 1 space at a time. Also you are going through a canal, so maybe that is somehow impacting it.
Or it could be the Wolpack units are blocking it but I'm pretty sure I made them "isSub" too.
At any rate, in a worst case scenario, you can move them in edit but that's obviously a last resort.
One other thing and it doesn't apply here, is that unescorted Trprts are blocked by Subs if they try to conduct a amphib landing in a SZ with a Sub and only Trprts present.
I'll see if I can recretae from the last save
Edit
You will have to post a save. The above save doesn't have any U-boats in 92
Haven't been following this one too closely. Interesting situation
If you want to get rid of the unplaced Minor Hvy Ind, edit in a Minor Fctry and then place it in 1st place and then remove it.
Edit
I guess it won't let you do that. I see you have one in W USA. It should be removed. I thought I changed it recently so they would place if someone wanted to before US joins the War and they auto upgrade.I will check.
Should also swap the NC for a red C one so he activates in 91. He will auto boost the strongest unit but it is PE to have the correct number of Ships in the TaskForce
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@beelee wrong game!
Here is the game where the fleet cannot get past the subs
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my guess it is because of the edits. Try editing control to USA during JPN turn and try it
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@johnnycat Game History
Round: 7 Purchase Units - Americans Trigger AmericansTotalWarMechInf: buyTotalWarMechInf added to productionAmericans Trigger AmericansTotalWarTank: buyTotalWar_Tank added to productionAmericans Trigger AmericansTotalWarAirTrprt: buyTotalWarAirTrprt added to productionAmericans Trigger AmericansTotalWarArty: buyTotalWar_Arty added to productionAmericans Trigger AmericansTotalWarFighter: buyTotalWarFighter added to productionAmericans Trigger AmericansTotalWar Bomber: buyTotalWar_Bomber added to productionAmericans Trigger AmericansTotalWarTacBmbr: buyTotalWarTacBmbr added to productionAmericans Trigger AmericansTotalWarNavyFtr: buyTotalWarNavyFtr added to productionAmericans Trigger AmericansTotalWarInf: buyTotalWar_Inf added to productionAmericans Americans buy 8 TotalWarFighters, 1 destroyer, 4 infantry and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; Combat Move - Americans Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceAmericans: Americans has 6 Rails placed in Eastern United States 2 infantry moved from Morocco to 91 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar 1 AirCommander, 1 usa_fighter and 1 usa_tactical_bomber moved from Morocco to Gibraltar 2 usa_fighters moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar 1 elite and 3 infantry moved from Southeast Mexico to 89 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from Brazil to 86 Sea Zone 1 transport moved from 89 Sea Zone to 101 Sea Zone 1 FighterAceUSA moved from Eastern United States to 104 Sea Zone 1 destroyer moved from 109 Sea Zone to 104 Sea Zone 1 elite, 3 infantry and 2 transports moved from 89 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 86 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone 1 elite and 5 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar 1 carrier moved from 101 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone Combat - Americans Battle in Gibraltar Americans attack with 1 AirCommander, 1 elite, 7 infantry, 3 usa_fighters and 1 usa_tactical_bomber Germans defend with 1 G_air_transport, 1 fighter and 1 infantry; Italians defend with 1 armour Americans win, taking Gibraltar from Italians with 1 AirCommander, 1 elite, 7 infantry, 3 usa_fighters and 1 usa_tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 21 Casualties for Italians: 1 armour Casualties for Germans: 1 G_air_transport, 1 fighter and 1 infantry Battle in 104 Sea Zone Americans attack with 1 FighterAceUSA and 1 destroyer Germans defend with 1 GermanUBoat Americans win with 1 FighterAceUSA and 1 destroyer remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4 Casualties for Germans: 1 GermanUBoat Trigger Remove All Wolfpack: has removed 1 Wolfpack owned by Germans in 112 Sea Zone Non Combat Move - Americans Trigger Wolfpack at112 SeaZones: Germans has 1 Wolfpack placed in 112 Sea Zone Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceRemoveAmericans: has removed 6 Rails owned by Americans in Eastern United States 1 FighterAceUSA moved from 104 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone 1 usa_tactical_bomber moved from Gibraltar to 91 Sea Zone 1 AirCommander moved from Gibraltar to 91 Sea Zone 1 usa_fighter moved from Gibraltar to 91 Sea Zone 2 usa_fighters moved from Gibraltar to Morocco 2 infantry moved from Western United States to 10 Sea Zone 1 Escort_Convoy, 1 Heavy_BB, 2 NavyFighters, 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, 2 infantry, 1 pacific_carrier, 1 submarine and 1 transport moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 26 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands Place Units - Americans 4 TotalWarFighters and 2 infantry placed in Western United States 4 TotalWarFighters and 2 infantry placed in Eastern United States 1 transport placed in 101 Sea Zone 1 destroyer and 1 transport placed in 10 Sea Zone Trigger AmericansTotalWarFighterPlaceEUS: has removed 4 TotalWarFighters owned by Americans in Eastern United States Trigger AmericansTotalWarFighterPlaceWUS: has removed 4 TotalWarFighters owned by Americans in Western United States Trigger AmericansTotalWarFighterPlaceEUS: Americans has 4 usa_fighters placed in Eastern United States Trigger AmericansTotalWarFighterPlaceWUS: Americans has 4 usa_fighters placed in Western United States Turn Complete - Americans Note to players Americans: It is Early 1943 and Our Shipyards are Hard at Work. 1 Battleship and 1 Transport are placed off the West Coast. They may only Operate in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. Trigger PacificFleetRD7: Americans has 1 pacific_BB and 1 pacific_transport placed in 10 Sea Zone Trigger PacificFleetJPNRD7: Japanese has 1 pacific_BB and 1 pacific_transport placed in 6 Sea Zone Americans collect 53 PUs; end with 54 PUs Trigger Americans AdvancedProduction: Americans met a national objective for an additional 14 PUs; end with 68 PUs Trigger Americans Loses Philippines: Americans met a national objective for an additional -3 PUs; end with 65 PUs Trigger USA Controls IwoJima Pacific Expanded: Americans met a national objective for an additional 1 PUs; end with 66 PUs Objective Americans 1 Homeland: Americans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 76 PUs Objective Americans 3 Defense Obligations: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 81 PUs Objective Americans 2 Outer Territories: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 86 PUs Purchase Units - Chinese Trigger Chinese Loses Burma Road: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Closed Chinese buy 4 infantry; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; Combat Move - Chinese Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceChinese: Chinese has 2 Rails placed in Kansu 1 infantry moved from Shensi to Kweichow Chinese take Kweichow from Japanese 1 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol Chinese take Jehol from Japanese Combat - Chinese Trigger Remove All Wolfpack: has removed 1 Wolfpack owned by Germans in 112 Sea Zone Non Combat Move - Chinese Trigger Wolfpack at112 SeaZones: Germans has 1 Wolfpack placed in 112 Sea Zone Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceRemoveChinese: has removed 2 Rails owned by Chinese in Kansu Place Units - Chinese 3 infantry placed in Shensi 1 infantry placed in Suiyuyan Turn Complete - Chinese Chinese collect 12 PUs; end with 13 PUs Objective Advanced Production 1 Infantry: Chinese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 16 PUs Purchase Units - British Trigger UKTotalWarSeaFighter: buySeafireTotalWar added to productionBritish Trigger UKTotalWar Tank: buyTotalWar_Tank added to productionBritish Trigger UKTotalWarAirTrprt: buyTotalWarAirTrprt added to productionBritish Trigger UKTotalWar Arty: buyTotalWar_Arty added to productionBritish Trigger UKTotalWarTacBmbr: buyTotalWarTacBmbr added to productionBritish Trigger UKTotalWarInf: buyTotalWar_Inf added to productionBritish Trigger UKTotalWarMechInf: buyTotalWarMechInf added to productionBritish Trigger UKTotalWar Bomber: buyTotalWar_Bomber added to productionBritish Trigger UKTotalWarFighter: buyTotalWarFighter added to productionBritish British buy 1 harbour, 5 infantry, 1 transport, 2 uk_armours and 1 uk_para; Remaining resources: 18 PUs; 3 AirLendLease; 3 NavyLendLease; Place Units - British 1 harbour placed in Gibraltar Combat Move - British Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceBritish: British has 2 Rails placed in Union of South Africa Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: British takes Holland Belgium from Germans EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode EDIT: 1 uk_para moved from United Kingdom to Holland Belgium 3 infantry moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to 81 Sea Zone 1 uk_armour moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to 81 Sea Zone 3 infantry and 1 uk_armour moved from 81 Sea Zone to Trans-Jordan 1 uk_fighter moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to Trans-Jordan 1 uk_tactical_bomber moved from 81 Sea Zone to Trans-Jordan 1 uk_fighter moved from 81 Sea Zone to Trans-Jordan Combat - British Battle in Trans-Jordan British attack with 3 infantry, 1 uk_armour, 2 uk_fighters and 1 uk_tactical_bomber Germans defend with 4 german_paras and 1 mech_infantry British win, taking Trans-Jordan from Germans with 3 infantry, 1 uk_armour, 2 uk_fighters and 1 uk_tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 20 Casualties for Germans: 4 german_paras and 1 mech_infantry Trigger Remove All Wolfpack: has removed 1 Wolfpack owned by Germans in 112 Sea Zone Non Combat Move - British Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceRemoveBritish: has removed 2 Rails owned by British in Anglo Egyptian Sudan 1 uk_fighter moved from Trans-Jordan to Anglo Egyptian Sudan 1 uk_fighter moved from Trans-Jordan to 81 Sea Zone 1 uk_tactical_bomber moved from Trans-Jordan to 81 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 71 Sea Zone to 81 Sea Zone 2 uk_armours moved from Belgian Congo to Anglo Egyptian Sudan 1 Rail and 1 infantry moved from Union of South Africa to Anglo Egyptian Sudan 1 Rail and 1 infantry moved from Union of South Africa to Anglo Egyptian Sudan 1 uk_armour moved from Union of South Africa to Belgian Congo 1 destroyer moved from 106 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone Place Units - British Trigger Wolfpack at112 SeaZones: Germans has 1 Wolfpack placed in 112 Sea Zone 1 transport placed in 106 Sea Zone 2 infantry placed in Quebec 2 infantry and 2 uk_armours placed in Union of South Africa 1 infantry and 1 uk_para placed in United Kingdom Turn Complete - British Trigger BritishParaBoost atHolland Belgium: British has 1 uk_paraBoost placed in Holland Belgium Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 1 Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 98 Sea Zone. Rolls: 5,3 British collect 31 PUs (1 lost to blockades); end with 49 PUs Trigger British AdvancedProduction: British met a national objective for an additional 6 PUs; end with 55 PUs775d69ca-78fc-4928-afcc-5d6c450fcb51-trout-cat-game-4-uk7.tsvg
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@trout
Such an incredible game.EDIT: please remove the 6 naval mines in Southern Italy. I forgot to do that.
775d69ca-78fc-4928-afcc-5d6c450fcb51-trout-cat-game-4-ITALY_END_Turn7.tsvg
Please let me know if you put vessels (non subs) across the 6 naval mines.
From what I read, we would have to state each vessel one by one and roll 1 or 2 to sink it before letter it go through. And this includes 2-hit and 3-hit vessels but I could be wrong since there are so many darn rules.
This is probably the only place on the map where naval mines seem to be powerful. Never again will I use them in the Pacific, hahaha
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@johnnycat Game History
Round: 7 Purchase Units - ANZAC ANZAC buy 1 battleship, 1 fighter and 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 3 PUs; Combat Move - ANZAC 1 artillery moved from New South Wales to Queensland 1 infantry moved from New South Wales to Queensland Combat - ANZAC Trigger Remove All BritishParaBoost: has removed 1 uk_paraBoost owned by British in Holland Belgium Trigger Remove All Wolfpack: has removed 1 Wolfpack owned by Germans in 112 Sea Zone Non Combat Move - ANZAC Trigger BritishParaBoost atHolland Belgium: British has 1 uk_paraBoost placed in Holland Belgium Trigger Wolfpack at112 SeaZones: Germans has 1 Wolfpack placed in 112 Sea Zone 1 air_transport and 1 infantry moved from New Zealand to Queensland Place Units - ANZAC 1 battleship and 1 fighter placed in 54 Sea Zone 1 infantry placed in Queensland Turn Complete - ANZAC ANZAC collect 17 PUs; end with 20 PUs Trigger ANZAC Liberates Celebes: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 1 PUs; end with 21 PUs Trigger ANZAC Liberates DNG: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 23 PUs Objective ANZAC 2 Control Strategic Islands: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 28 PUs Combat Move - French Combat - French Trigger Remove All BritishParaBoost: has removed 1 uk_paraBoost owned by British in Holland Belgium Trigger Remove All Wolfpack: has removed 1 Wolfpack owned by Germans in 112 Sea Zone Non Combat Move - French Trigger BritishParaBoost atHolland Belgium: British has 1 uk_paraBoost placed in Holland Belgium Trigger Wolfpack at112 SeaZones: Germans has 1 Wolfpack placed in 112 Sea Zone Turn Complete - FrenchCombat Hit Differential Summary :
a0ae8950-8642-4519-9e2d-aaa8286aa5ac-trout-cat-game-4-f7.tsvg
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ok
1774911521928-a0ae8950-8642-4519-9e2d-aaa8286aa5ac-trout-cat-game-4-GERMANY_endTurn8.tsvgstill confused about multiple armies and army groups but will just continue and see what happens
EDIT I removed the 6 mines
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@johnnycat Game History
Round: 8 Purchase Units - Russians Note to players Russians: <body><b>It is Late 1943 and Our Factories are Now Producing Tank Destroyers !<br><br><img src="TankDestroyerFS.png"/><br><br></body> Trigger TankDestroyerFS: buyTankDestroyerFS added to productionRussians Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Syria: 2 German_LCVs EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Southern Italy: 6 NavalMines EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Greece: 2 German_LCVs EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode Russians buy 3 Mass_Tankss, 4 TotalWarFighters, 3 TotalWar_Tank_2s and 1 elite; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 3 AirLendLease; 3 TankLendLease; Combat Move - Russians Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceRussians: Russians has 1 R_Europe_Rail and 2 Russian_Rails placed in Russia Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Russians takes Bulgaria from Germans EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode 1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Romania 1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Slovakia Hungary 1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Poland 1 Army_Conscript moved from Baltic States to Novgorod 1 FighterAce moved from Russia to Novgorod 1 Army_Conscript moved from Baltic States to Novgorod 1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Romania EDIT: 1 2ndCorps moved from Eastern Poland to 2nd Corps EDIT: 1 guard_infantry moved from 2nd Corps to Romania EDIT: 2 armour moved from 2nd Corps to Romania EDIT: 1 Soviet_Commisar_3 moved from Overflow to Romania EDIT: 1 russian_para moved from Eastern Poland to Bulgaria 1 FighterAce moved from Belarus to Slovakia Hungary 1 fighter moved from Belarus to Poland 1 tactical_bomber moved from Belarus to Poland 1 elite moved from Eastern Poland to Poland 1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Slovakia Hungary 1 fighter moved from Belarus to Novgorod 1 submarine moved from 111 Sea Zone to 109 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Chahar Chinese take Chahar from Japanese Combat - Russians Battle in Novgorod Russians attack with 2 Army_Conscripts, 1 FighterAce and 1 fighter Germans defend with 1 airfield, 1 elite and 1 harbour Russians win, taking Novgorod from Germans with 1 Army_Conscript, 1 FighterAce and 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 1 Casualties for Russians: 1 Army_Conscript Casualties for Germans: 1 elite Battle in Romania Russians attack with 1 Soviet_Commisar_3, 2 armour, 1 guard_infantry and 2 infantry Germans defend with 1 infantry Russians win, taking Romania from Germans with 1 Soviet_Commisar_3, 2 armour, 1 guard_infantry and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0 Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry Battle in Poland Russians attack with 1 elite, 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber Germans defend with 1 infantry Russians win, taking Poland from Germans with 1 elite, 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3 Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry Battle in Slovakia Hungary Russians attack with 1 FighterAce and 2 infantry Germans defend with 1 infantry Russians win, taking Slovakia Hungary from Germans with 1 FighterAce and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3 Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry Trigger Remove All Wolfpack: has removed 1 Wolfpack owned by Germans in 112 Sea Zone Non Combat Move - Russians Trigger Wolfpack at112 SeaZones: Germans has 1 Wolfpack placed in 112 Sea Zone Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceRemoveRussians: has removed 1 Russian_Rail owned by Russians in Eastern Poland Trigger RailMovementAutoPlaceRemoveRussians: has removed 1 R_Europe_Rail and 1 Russian_Rail owned by Russians in Russia 1 FighterAce moved from Slovakia Hungary to Belarus 1 fighter moved from Poland to Belarus 1 tactical_bomber moved from Poland to Belarus 1 FighterAce moved from Novgorod to Belarus 1 fighter moved from Novgorod to Belarus 5 infantry moved from Caucasus to Northwest Persia 1 elite moved from Caucasus to Northwest Persia 1 artillery moved from Caucasus to Northwest Persia 1 3rdCorps moved from Volgograd to Caucasus 3 infantry moved from Novosibirsk to Urals 1 infantry moved from Western Ukraine to Eastern Poland 1 Russian_Rail and 1 elite moved from Russia to Eastern Poland 1 Elitearmour moved from Russia to Belarus EDIT: 1 Tank_General moved from Russia to 2nd Tank EDIT: 4 armour moved from Russia to 2nd Tank EDIT: 2 armour moved from Russia to 2nd Tank EDIT: Russians undo move 16. EDIT: 1 armour moved from Russia to 2nd Tank EDIT: 1 2ndTankArmy moved from 2nd Tank to Belarus 1 armour moved from Russia to Urals 1 armour moved from Urals to Kansu 1 armour moved from Yenisey to Buryatia 4 infantry moved from Belarus to Eastern Poland 1 infantry moved from Belarus to Eastern Poland Place Units - Russians 3 Mass_Tankss, 4 TotalWarFighters, 3 TotalWar_Tank_2s and 1 elite placed in Russia Trigger MassTanksPlace3: has removed 3 Mass_Tankss owned by Russians in Russia Trigger RussiansTotalWarTankPlaceRussia6: has removed 3 TotalWar_Tank_2s owned by Russians in Russia Trigger RussiansTotalWarFighterPlaceRussia4: has removed 4 TotalWarFighters owned by Russians in Russia Trigger MassTanksPlace3: Russians has 3 armour placed in Russia Trigger RussiansTotalWarTankPlaceRussia6: Russians has 3 armour placed in Russia Trigger RussiansTotalWarFighterPlaceRussia4: Russians has 4 fighters placed in Russia Turn Complete - Russians Trigger RussiansParaBoost atBulgaria: Russians has 1 russian_paraBoost placed in Bulgaria Russians collect 45 PUs; end with 45 PUs Trigger Russians 1 Lend Lease: Russians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 50 PUs Objective Russians 2 Spread Of Communism: Russians met a national objective for an additional 12 PUs; end with 62 PUsf2ed8085-823a-470a-b00a-50691a984502-trout-cat-game-4-r8.tsvg
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@trout said in EXP G40 Game 4 Trout vs JCat:
f2ed8085-823a-470a-b00a-50691a984502-trout-cat-game-4-r8.tsvg
never mind...
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Those paras are a pita
Edit
another reason that AA Guns are so valuable. I still never by enough -
@beelee dont understand. Was ist "pita"
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@johnnycat said in EXP G40 Game 4 Trout vs JCat:
@beelee dont understand. Was ist "pita"
well it's not a mexican snack
PainInTheAss PITA
Edit
Wow ! What a bloodbath this isReich pushed back to Berlin, still powerful though.
I'll have to watch the finish
Someone definitely needs to do a Game report on this one
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SLOVAK HUNGARY HOW TO COMPUTE.tsvg
I am providing a save game that shows one of my elite inf and one Waffen armies (4th Waffen) attacking two inf in Slovak Hungary
How do I do this rolling?
If I just put the units down they will NOT get the extra dice rolls.
If you have a moment please tell me how to do this.
Thanks
Cat
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Yea so you have the dudes in Berlin to create 4th SS. Easiest way is to edit the Oberst out and edit in Oberst 3 as he gives the SS PnzrGrndr a extra Die roll as well as himself.
Then just move in to attack normally. No edit needed to move as long as you do this before anything else in CM.
Also you need to switch the AB and Fctry in France to German
Edit
Note that if the battle goes south you have to take the Oberst as a casualty first once the Army is disbanded.Otherwise it will incorrectly continue to give it's bonus.
E.g.
Germans get 1 hit and Soviets get 2.
SSR loses 1 Inf and G has to lose the Oberst and one other unit as there is no way for the Army to still be active.
So when the army or Corps goes inactive, first casualty has to be the Oberst or commisar to prevent the Bonus going forward.
In some situations, you can swap out any surviving members of the Army/Corps to replace the Oberst/Commisar.
Or if you wanna get ultra technical you can handroll it
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What does this mean: edit in Oberst 3 as
Are you referring to that top bar? You mean that one of the Oberst there is special?
OK
This was was a sample not a real game.
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just edit directly to Berlin in this case. Ignore the Box
Edit
Go to edit and add Oberst 3 and remove Oberst in Berlin then do turn at start of CMI am going to remove the overflow Boxes as they are to confusing.
Actually I am going to make a option if one wants to use it but have it turned off by default
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@beelee Sorry mate BUT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND
When I put the units on the map and run the battle THEY DO NOT get extra rollls.
Are you telling me to replace my Oberst unit with some special Oberst unit?
If so, where do I get that?
THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I really need to learn how to do this. ANd how do I get the extra rolls from the ARMY GROUP?
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