Flames and Steel (official thread)
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Late in the war, the performance of the German army sometimes declined. Their military age men had been killed, replaced by boys or old men. Whereas the performance of the Red Army improved as the war went on. Their generals and officer corps gained in proficiency, and they overcame the problems which had plagued them during Barbarossa.
At some point after WWII, the U.S. military did a study about combat effectiveness. The Battle of Kursk was chosen for the study. The reasoning was that this battle was early enough in the war that the German army still consisted of military age men. Late enough in the war that the Soviets had overcome their early war problems.
According to the study, Soviet soldiers were 25 - 33% as combat-effective as their German counterparts. Similar studies found that British soldiers were about 50% as combat-effective as the Germans. American soldiers were 80 - 100% as combat-effective. A follow-on study concluded that American soldiers may have been overestimated, and that their combat-effectiveness was equal to that of the British.
At least according to a quick search, 13.6 million Germans served in the German Army during WWII. Whereas, 34 million Soviets served in the Red Army during WWII.
In the key year of 1942, the Soviet Union produced almost twice as many military aircraft as the Germans, and 3 - 4 times as many land weapons. Because of all this Soviet production, as well as Lend-Lease aid, Soviet soldiers were provided with weapons. The "one rifle for every two soldiers" stuff may have been true in 1941, but had ceased to be true as the war progressed. The difference in combat-effectiveness at Kursk, which the U.S. military study found in 1943, was not due to the Soviet soldiers lacking weapons. They had plenty of weapons in 1943. I don't know what caused the difference in combat-effectiveness.
Regardless, I wanted to translate all this into the language of TripleA. A truly vast Red Army, but with soldiers individually less combat-effective than the Germans, British, or Americans. That is why I gave the Soviet Union the conscript.
Then I guess, if you still want to have the Soviets having the regular "infantry" unit which the Germans have too (same cost and values) but sided by this other cheaper and weaker alternative, you can call it "replacement_infantry" or "replenishment_infantry".
This would represent mainly less well trained infantry and would somewhat account for your general concept of depicting the Soviets as less effective man-per-man and pound-for-pound than the Germans.
However, I've some difficulties seeing what you are seeing because (according to what you said) I would guess that it should be the Soviet infantry being worse than the German infantry (and I guess not only the infantry) rather than the Soviets having an infantry equal to the German infantry and also this other unit if they want to buy it.
Your point is valid. If Soviet infantry had good weapons, but were less combat-effective than some other nations' infantry, one way to handle that in game terms would be to make them cost the same as other infantry, but at conscript-type combat values. An infantry costs 1 manpower point (to reflect the need to conscript men) and 1 PU (which reflects the need to provide the men with weapons). Soviet infantry were equipped with good weapons, so letting them get out of that 1 PU does seem a bit ahistorical.
However, if I constrain the Soviets to conscripts only, then people will tell me they had some good infantry, and I'll hear about Revolutionary Guards or some such. One idea which I can toss into this discussion would be as follows:
Soviet infantry: cost 1 PU, 1 MP. Attack 0, defend 1. Receives support.
Revolutionary guard: cost 2 PUs, 1 MP. Attack 1, defend 2. Receives support.Interestingly enough, Revolutionary Guards received higher pay than normal Soviet soldiers, even though the whole point of the revolution they were guarding was to make everyone economically equal.
I'm not committing to this idea yet--a change like this requires mulling over first--but it's certainly worth adding this to the discussion.
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@KurtGodel7 Well, "Guard" would be the most typical pick for elite Soviet infantry but would not be a very good one for something which you purchase directly: Guard status is usually earned on the field, so that would really only make sense as an upgrade. What you are searching for is more like the Shock status (ударная армия), which is actually top-down elite from day one. However, that is primarily correlated to having more organic artillery and such: I don't know how much that would (or would not) relate to the infantry itself being elite, though I do remember to have read somewhere that they were paid more than regular infantrymen rank-per-rank (cannot give a reference and may be wrong), and I guess they are also better trained and equipped as a matter of infantry weapons, but I don't actually know (guess you can make a search or ask Claude).
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By the way, this could be alternatively (or also) represented by making the Germans unable to buy regular infantry as well as anything lesser, so making them able to buy only "elite" or "grenadiers". This was actually formalized late in 1942. I will let the AI explain better.
If I tell Google AI "Tell me how Hitler gave the elite status of grenadier to every infantryman during World War 2.", the answer is
Adolf Hitler did not actually grant elite status or specialized training to every standard infantryman; rather, he executed a massive, cost-effective propaganda and morale-boosting rebranding campaign.
On October 15, 1942, Hitler ordered all standard German army (Heer) infantry regiments to be renamed Grenadier Regiments (Grenadierregimenter). This sweeping change relied entirely on psychological warfare and historical prestige rather than changing structural reality:- The Power of "Branding" & Historical Illusion
Historically, "grenadiers" were the physically imposing, elite assault troops of the 18th and 19th centuries, famously associated with Frederick the Great’s Prussian Army. By decreeing that every basic foot soldier was now a "grenadier," Hitler sought to link the struggling, heavily fatigued Wehrmacht landsers to a legendary lineage of unstoppable military heroes.
- Boosting Crashing Morale
By late 1942, the German army was facing severe strain, immense casualties, and an agonizing winter stalemate on the Eastern Front. The rebranding was designed to give the average, exhausted "straight-leg" foot soldier a psychological lift, making them feel like chosen shock troops without the state having to invest in new equipment or extra rations.
- Masking Material Shortages
Simultaneously, Germany's mechanized and motorized infantry regiments were renamed Panzergrenadiers. This created a linguistic illusion of overwhelming armored might. While a Panzergrenadier sounds like a high-tech, heavily armored soldier, the stark reality was that Germany faced severe fuel and vehicle shortages. In fact, only about 11% of these "elite" Panzergrenadier battalions were actually equipped with armored half-tracks; the vast majority relied on standard cargo trucks or simply marched on foot alongside horse-drawn artillery.
- Late-War Desperation: The Volksgrenadiers
As the war turned entirely against Germany in 1944, the regime took the naming scheme a step further by creating Volksgrenadier ("People's Grenadier") divisions. Though the name implied a fierce, elite vanguard of the German people, these units were actually understrength, desperate defensive formations. They were rapidly cobbled together from raw teenagers, older conscripts, and transferred personnel from the Navy and Air Force who often received as little as three to six weeks of basic training.
Ultimately, Hitler's sweeping upgrade of the infantry to "grenadiers" was a semantic trick—the battlefield duties, lack of transport, and standard gear of the average infantryman remained exactly the same, but they now carried a title designed to sound formidable to both themselves and their enemies. -
I love how the AI starts by saying
Adolf Hitler did not actually grant elite status or specialized training to every standard infantryman
and then proceeds to explain how he did formally grant elite (grenadier) status to every standard infantryman.
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Actually, you can have both. You could have that Soviet infantry can be upgraded to "guard_infantry" but that you can also buy "shock_infantry". They may be actually the same except that the former is an upgrade and the latter is purchased directly. Can you ask Claude what was the most elite between Guard and Shock armies in the Red Army during World War 2?
This is what Google AI says when asked that question:
In the Red Army during World War II, the Guards Armies were considered more inherently elite than the Shock Armies.
While both were highly formidable and significantly outperformed regular All-Arms field armies, they represented entirely different organizational philosophies.The Distinction Between the Formations
Guards Armies earned their status through battle merit.
The "Guards" designation was an honorary title awarded by the Soviet high command (Stavka) to existing units that had demonstrated exceptional courage, skill, and heroism on the battlefield. Over time, these highly decorated divisions and corps were clustered together to create whole Guards Armies. Because their status was a direct reflection of combat proficiency, they were universally viewed as the elite institutional backbone of the Red Army.
Shock Armies were defined by their structural role, not their prestige.
A Shock Army (Udrarnaya Armiya) was designated as such from its creation based purely on its specific tactical purpose. Built to execute the first phase of the Soviet "Deep Battle" doctrine, their purpose was to act as heavy battering rams to breach fortified German defensive lines. They were packed with massive amounts of field artillery, heavy mortar regiments, combat engineers, and assault infantry to create a breakthrough so that more mobile forces could flood through the gaps.Operational and Structural Realities
• Resource Priority: Both types of armies received equipment priority over standard armies. Shock Armies often received heavy emphasis on firepower (like heavy self-propelled guns and siege artillery) needed for breakthrough operations. However, by the later stages of the war, Guards Armies typically matched or surpassed Shock Armies in terms of qualitative artillery and armored support.
• Personnel Quality: Guards units attracted the best replacements and maintained an institutional culture of high morale and rigorous training. Shock Armies, while heavily reinforced with personnel, suffered devastatingly high casualty rates due to the brutal nature of frontal breakthrough operations, meaning their ranks were frequently replenished with regular conscripts.
• Perks and Incentives: Soldiers serving in Guards units enjoyed distinct institutional privileges, including a unique badge, specific uniform tailoring, and higher pay scales (double pay for enlisted men and 1.5 times pay for officers). Shock Armies did not automatically receive these systemic personal benefits unless individual sub-units within the army had also independently earned Guards status.
Ultimately, a Shock Army was a temporary or specialized tool designed for an incredibly violent tactical job, whereas a Guards Army was a permanently recognized elite force comprised of the Red Army's most proven veterans. -
AT guns may be common, but they still have to be distributed in every territory across the front line. So this would turn the Light Tank into a unit that can be used opportunistically to punish an enemy player who leaves gaps in his defenses.
The 1:1 rule also means there’s opportunities to get the bonus even when the opponent does have AT defenses through the use of concentration. Perhaps the Soviet player has 16 Anti-Tank Guns and I as Germany have only 8 light tanks. At first glance, sounds like he has me completely countered.
But the Soviet player’s front line is so large that he has to spread those guns out so that there’s only 2 or 3 AT guns in each zone. I pick one that has only 2 of them, and rush all 8 of my light tanks there - now 6 of them are attacking at 50% greater strength and can tear up all the infantry and field guns.
And because the Light Tank is speed 2 and the AT gun is speed 1, I can always move my tanks around to concentrate for an attack faster than my opponent can shuffle his guns together to mass a defense.
This sounds like it will make for some really fun dynamics since it turns the Light Tank into a unit that rewards smart tactics, and the AT Gun into something that actually plays a role befitting its name instead of just being a generic filler unit to use as cannon fodder.
You could even consider extending that dynamic to the Medium Tank - it gets +1 over its current stats, but reverts to its current ones if it gets fought by heavier tanks or by AT guns at a 1:1 ratio.
@cernel
I would recommend Jason Clower’s Type 56 - Story of the SKS YouTube channel as a very informative and entertaining source on how the Chinese army fought - he principally covers the PLA, but there’s a lot of overlap with the NRA in terms of the logistical struggles they had during WW2.China's best infantry units were the ones trained and equipped by the Germans prior to WW2, not by the Soviets. There were three elite divisions that were fully organized and equipped along European lines, and twelve others that had been reorganized and trained by them but didn't get the full array of imported artillery and equipment.
I implemented Guards Infantry and Shock Armies as Soviet unlockable bonuses in my TRO outline. Guards was a promotion mechanic where you replace up to two regular Infantry per turn with Elite Infantry for free if you win a battle. Shock Armies was one where Elite Infantry would pair with the Assault Gun and allow the AG to get one pre-battle bombardment shot at the enemy.
My policy was to avoid bloating the roster with adding a bunch of new unique units and instead use nation-specific techs to add new bonuses or synergies to the baseline units (or ways to get them cheaper).
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China's best infantry units were the ones trained and equipped by the Germans prior to WW2, not by the Soviets. There were three elite divisions that were fully organized and equipped along European lines, and twelve others that had been reorganized and trained by them but didn't get the full array of imported artillery and equipment.
I know of those, but I just assumed that little enough remained of them by 1941 (I mean as the actual then German trained and equipped men, not the divisions themselves as names), but I don't actually know.
Asking Google AI "How many men of the Chinese divisions trained and equipped by the Germans prior to WW2 were still organically fielded in those divisions or elsewhere in mid 1941 in absolute terms and as a percentage of the Chinese army?", I'm answered
In absolute terms, the number of original pre-war German-trained and equipped Chinese soldiers still organically fielded in mid-1941 was statistically negligible, approaching zero, representing effectively 0% (less than 0.01%) of the overall Chinese National Revolutionary Army (NRA).
The Lifespan of the Elite Divisions
Prior to the outbreak of the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937, Sino-German military cooperation had successfully produced a core elite of roughly 80,000 fully trained troops spread across 8 frontline divisions (most famously the 36th, 87th, and 88th Divisions, along with the Training Unit). An additional 12 to 20 divisions were in various secondary stages of partial training and reorganization.
However, their preservation was incredibly short-lived due to Chiang Kai-shek’s strategic decisions in 1937:
• The Shanghai "Exsanguination" (August–November 1937): Desperate to draw international intervention and halt the Japanese, Chiang committed his absolute best German-trained assets to brutal, Stalingrad-style urban warfare in Shanghai. Within just the first few weeks, these divisions suffered catastrophic attrition rates of 60% to 70%. By October 1937, only 20% to 30% of the men remaining in the 88th Division were original pre-war veterans—the rest were raw, hasty replacements.
• The Routine Destruction at Nanjing (December 1937): What remained of these elite formations retreated to defend the capital, Nanjing. Following the chaotic retreat and subsequent massacre, these units were completely shattered. For example, the 88th Division was reduced to barely 1,000 survivors out of its original 10,000+ man complement.The Situation by Mid-1941
By June 1941, four years of relentless war had completely transformed the Chinese military fabric:
• Complete Turnover of Personnel: While the legendary structural designations (like the 36th, 87th, and 88th Divisions) still existed on paper and were legally active, they were "elite" in name only. The frontline infantrymen had been entirely replaced multiple times over by uneducated, locally conscripted provincial peasants who lacked foreign tactical training.
• Depletion of Equipment: The high-quality German equipment—such as the standard M1935 Stahlhelm, imported Mauser rifles, and Pak 36 anti-tank guns—was largely destroyed, lost, or exhausted of ammunition by 1938–1939. By mid-1941, the divisions were equipped with erratic combinations of domestic Chinese browning copies, Soviet supplies, and captured Japanese gear.
• Dilution within a Mass Army: By mid-1941, the National Revolutionary Army had expanded into a massive, decentralized force of roughly 3.8 to 4 million nominal soldiers spread across upwards of 300 under-strength divisions.
Consequently, barring a minute handful of surviving high-ranking officers who had climbed the command ladder out of harm's way, the original, organically fielded pre-war German-trained rank-and-file soldiers had been entirely wiped out by mid-1941. -
I implemented Guards Infantry and Shock Armies as Soviet unlockable bonuses in my TRO outline. Guards was a promotion mechanic where you replace up to two regular Infantry per turn with Elite Infantry for free if you win a battle. Shock Armies was one where Elite Infantry would pair with the Assault Gun and allow the AG to get one pre-battle bombardment shot at the enemy.
I guess sounds about right (as long as you can also buy elite infantry directly (not only by upgrading them with the guard promotion mechanic)).
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Two subjects here: light tanks ( @vendetta ) and Soviet infantry ( @cernel ). This post is my thoughts on infantry.
Currently there are three tiers of infantry
Tier 1: conscript. China, USSR, Italy
Tier 2: infantry. All nations except China.
Tier 3: Sturmtruppen. Germany only.I could go to a four tier system
Tier 1: Chinese conscripts
Tier 2: USSR, maybe Japan
Tier 3: infantry, Revolutionary Guards for USSR, maybe an elite unit for Japan
Tier 4: SturmtruppenThis four tier system would be more accurate historically. Chinese conscripts could cost 1 MP and 0 PUs to reflect the fact that they are poorly armed. Soviet infantry would cost 1 MP and 1 PU. The 1 PU reflects the fact they received better weapons than the Chinese, and they would also be more combat-effective.
Let's look at how this could work in practice
Tier 1: Chinese conscripts. 1 MP, 0 PU. Attack 0, defend 1.
Tier 2: Soviet infantry. 1 MP, 1 PU. Attack 1, defend 2.
Tier 3: infantry. 1 MP, 1 PU. Attack 2, defend 3
Tier 4: Sturmtruppen. Attack 3, defend 4All infantry types can receive support on both offense and defense. Note that if a Sturmtruppen is on defense and is supported, that Sturmtruppen defends on a 5.
In my current iteration, a Sturmtruppen attacks on a 2 and defends on a 3. The Assault Rifle tech adds +1 to attack and defense. So, Sturmtruppen with assault rifles, and receiving support on defense, would defend on a 5.
If I'm going with this four tier system, the assault rifle would cause Sturmtruppen to attack on a 4 and defend on a 3 + 2. That would be upgraded to a 3 + 3 if the Sturmtruppen were to receive support on defense.
For Japan, I'm thinking start Japan off at tier 2 infantry. This would reflect the fact that Japanese infantry were significantly less combat-effective than their American counterparts, at least in 1942 and 1943. But then Japan could research a tech which upgrades all its infantry to tier 3. I believe that Italy's infantry should be at tier 2. Normal Soviet infantry should be at tier 2; Revolutionary Guards at tier 3.
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@KurtGodel7 said:
I could go to a four tier systemLet's look at how this could work in practice
Tier 1: Chinese conscripts. 1 MP, 0 PU. Attack 0, defend 1.
Tier 2: Soviet infantry. 1 MP, 1 PU. Attack 1, defend 2.
Tier 3: infantry. 1 MP, 1 PU. Attack 2, defend 3
Tier 4: Sturmtruppen. Attack 3, defend 4All infantry types can receive support on both offense and defense. Note that if a Sturmtruppen is on defense and is supported, that Sturmtruppen defends on a 5.
This seems rather dangerous to me. Infantry is the basic building block the whole combat system in A&A is balanced around. If you're giving the basic Infantry double the attack and 50% more defense for the same price, it immediately devalues every single unit that's more expensive than the infantry (in other words, almost all of them). So then you have to go and figure out new values for all those other units and rebuild the whole balance from scratch.
It's also turning the Sturmtruppen into a god unit (your existing version already gets the same combat stats as a Fighter from the base game once it's upgraded, and it costs less, and it gets even better with artillery). Rolling a second dice (if that's what 3+2 / 3+3 means) is a big power boost.
D3+D2: 33% double miss, 50% single hit, 17% double hit
D4: 33% miss, 67% hitD3+D3: 25% double miss, 50% single hit, 25% double hit
D5: 17% miss, 83% hitI would recommend keeping the base infantry at 1A/2D.
If you want other nations to have elite units that are better than the standard infantry but not as good as the Sturmtruppen, make those 2A/2D.
Or you could make them 2A/3D and on par with Sturmtruppen, but they don't get access to that assault rifle upgrade.
If you want certain countries to have lower tier infantry than the standard, just make them 1A/1D. You can give Italy, Japan, etc a tech to research them up to 1A/2D like everyone else's.
One other thing you can do if you want to make the major powers have stronger infantry than the minors is not to change the infantry stats at all, but the effectiveness of their support.
For instance, everyone gets 1A/2D basic infantry, but the USA, UK, and Germany start with a tech that allows each artillery to support two infantry, while Italy, Japan, and the Soviets need to research it.
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Sturmtruppen
Those were a World War 1 thing. Surely, World War 2 German infantry was deeply inspired to them (to the extent you could argue that the normal World War 2 German infantryman was a Sturmtrupp man), but I'm not seeing much fitting calling Nazi German infantry elite as Sturmtruppen.
However, I'm not sure what would be a good term for World War 2 Germany elite infantry in general. I guess the most obvious pick would be the Waffen-SS, but that is questionable (especially with respect to non-SS elite like the Großdeutschland) and it would be weird that you have Waffen-SS infantries but not all other kind of Waffen-SS units (motorized, mechanized and armoured).
In general, I do not think that elite infantry fits very well in a World War 2 scenario, as they tended to be motorized, mechanized or armoured if they were elite in the first place. Like the Großdeutschland starting as infantry and becoming Panzergrenadier.
Even if you do not have paratroopers (right?), I guess you can have the Fallschirmjäger as the name for the elite German infantry, as they are maybe the most obvious case of what an arguably purely elite infantry may be. The problem with that, however, is that they were very few in numbers in 1941. They became an actual main thing as an elite infantry of Germany late in the war.
I guess you can use the anachronistic term Sturmtruppen in a World War 2 game to sum up all the different kind of elite infantries, but I do not think it is a good idea. The concept was really that in World War 2 all German infantry was supposed to be Sturmtruppen (and also the Italians had this idea regarding their arditi).
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@Cernel Sturmtruppen wasn't really a formal title anymore, but it does work as a functional role description.
Waffen-SS would be a poor fit, some of their units were elite, some were definitely not.
Fallschirmjager is paratrooper specific and the unit doesn't have any special abilities related to airborne attacks, so also a poor fit.
Only alternative I can think of that might be fitting is Grenadier.
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Cernel said:
Even if you do not have paratroopers (right?), I guess you can have the Fallschirmjäger as the name for the elite German infantry, as they are maybe the most obvious case of what an arguably purely elite infantry may be. The problem with that, however, is that they were very few in numbers in 1941. They became an actual main thing as an elite infantry of Germany late in the war.
To be clear, not having paratroopers and having Fallschirmjäger as elite infantry would be perfectly fine starting in June 1941 because almost all of them would actually never fight as paratroopers (some major exceptions), so they were actually much more elite infantry than paratroopers.
I'm not sure how many of them were even trained as paratroopers from 1942 onwards, so I'm going to ask Google AI right now "What was the percentage of Fallschirmjäger actually trained as paratroopers from 1942 to 1944?" The answer is
There is no single, exact official percentage recorded for the entire Fallschirmjäger branch between 1942 and 1944, as jump-qualification rates varied drastically by division and year. However, historical records show a steep collapse from nearly 100% jump-qualified in early 1942 to under 10% in newly formed divisions by mid-1944.
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Only alternative I can think of that might be fitting is Grenadier.
I agree, but from late 1942 onwards every infantryman was formally a grenadier. That would work if Germany can only buy elite as its "cheapest" infantry (which would be fine if we want to picture the assumed basic German tactical superiority). A game starting in mid 1941 could have "grenadier" as the cheapest German infantry (but with cost and values of an elite infantry), meaning that Germany can only buy elite (called "grenadier") as infantry units, anticipating by a little more than 1 year the formal naming and picturing the German army as an all-elite infantry thing. That would be arguably fine, but it is a choice. It's disputable how much elite the basic German infantryman was with respect to others.
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@Cernel Acceptable departures from reality, I think. Having Germany only able to buy elite infantry that are better than everyone else's is a far bigger violation of realism (as well as game balance) than playing a bit fast and loose with the unit names.
Germany's average level of unit effectiveness was indeed higher than anyone else's, and if you were narrowing down a list of the most accomplished divisions in the entire war, the Germans would command a very outsized share of it, but still, the German army varied a lot in quality, just like everyone else's, and they raised their own share of mediocre to badly performing units too.
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Having Germany only able to buy elite infantry that are better than everyone else's is a far bigger violation of realism (as well as game balance) than playing a bit fast and loose with the unit names.
I tend to agree, but then we cannot use "grenadier" as name for a German elite infantry on the account that, from late 1942 onwards, that was the name for the basic infantry, and we are back on square one for what is a good name for a German infantry elite.
At this point, maybe it is better just to call it "elite_infantry". I would suggest that over "sturmtruppen" at least.
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