Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5
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I always wondered what happens if one does that, but I was too lazy to try. It's probably not a TWW thing.
I guess the most reasonable thing is, just keep the fighters in B, even if there is no airfield there.
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@gully yeah, that's what it should be. The problem is the game crashes instantly after combats. No autosave, no chance to save, no error message. Can be really painful if you have a game and didn't save for some time.
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@Hepps Love the overall direction for the Vichy fleets and protectorates. My only comment is that you might want to consider avoiding having BBs in the fleets as gaining a BB is a pretty huge swing. Just don't want too much randomness that can really swing the game based on a couple rolls.
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@redrum I hear what you are saying. But I have been mulling the math over in my mind.
Let's assume for examples sake that any attempt at liberating North Africa happens after the Exiled Allies have saved enough PU to ensure they are rolling for ALL the Vichy fleet. (Since that only makes sense if you are playing the Allies)
With a roll at 10/12 for each vessel... that means you have an 83% chance of sinking all of them. Now I am no mathematician... but my calculations that means on average... (massive luck swings excluded, just working on average results)... that 17% of the ships would survive... or 1.19 units. This means that on average even if the BB survived... it would be the only unit to do so. Now while gaining a BB would be a big event... the actual chance of the surviving unit being the BB is 14% (1 of 7).
Now, given that we are assuming the Allies are taking one of the Protectorates in force... and have diverted the necessary resources to Gibraltar to pursue an offensive. this means even if the surviving unit is the BB... In all likelihood this unit is not going to change the entire course of the Med. but rather buy Germany and Italy some more time to try and mount a defense.
The other thing to consider is that if the Allies have made an African push... then in all likelihood the BB and DD have already been liberated off West Africa. So the Axis could probably use a little luck at this point.
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@hepps So I think your math is a bit funky
So let's look at it this way with the main assumption that exiled allies can roll for all 7 (otherwise I think it gets pretty ugly fast for the Allies).
Points
- The BB will survive 1 of 6 games (10/12 roll)
- When the BB survives we want to consider how many other units on average survive with it: 0 - 33%, 1 - 40%, 2- 20%, 3 - 5%, rest are <1%
So when the BB survives (1 of 6 games), ~67% of the time it'll survive with at least 1 other naval unit and ~27% with at least 2 other naval units. Those odds aren't that rare and if you survive with a BB + 1 or more other naval unit and then have 1-2 fighters in Vichy France that is a pretty legitimate naval presence in the Med.
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Looking over the changes as a whole from a balance stand point, it probably favors Allies a bit.
Most likely the best strategy would be to primarily use the US to send a fleet to capture West Africa ASAP (probably around turn 3) and just having the UK in Africa send a few units to contain the other German units and create a pincer. This allows the Allies to pick up all the Vichy production in West Africa, the free land units, and the Vichy Dakar navy and really only changes that the US will need to build a bit more of a fleet in the Atlantic (so less Pacific pressure). After West Africa is secured, I'd probably just ignore North Africa as I don't want to take a gamble that the Vichy Fleet at Toulon survives or have to pay to try and sink them. So the UK would essentially play almost the same way they tend to play today and focus on Egypt and then the US can shift focus to the Pacific.
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I pointed that out already - saying that either Germany gets offensive units there too to require attention or the sector can be mopped up anytime by Allies.
Germany really lacks the means to invest in the sector unless they really want to pay a hefty cost elsewhere.
So as it is now it's pratically a 1 turn affair for USA to go to Azores, and by turn2 or turn3 they land in West Afrika, get the Vichy Dakar fleet as Allied (hefty bonus) and if the minor allies of UK want can skip the scrapping as they neglect the mediterranean alltogether and UK keeps pinning Cairo.What Red said it's even worse though, Vichy loses flexibility due to the loss of N.Afrika that mandates 1 resource instead of a choice, and ultimately it's a neat Allied gain. Not minor - after I thought on his words.
That in a map that from my perspective is already heavily swinging to Allied favor.
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@shonn So the Axis do get a few benefits from how the proposed changes currently sit which I don't think quite balance out the Allied benefits but is the reason I feel it isn't a huge swing.
Axis Benefits
- Vichy starts with -2 PU but gets free material (slightly less flexibility but definitely more value as France needs materials)
- Vichy fleet at Toulon provides protection against allied landings in South France and Northern Italy
- Vichy fleet at Toulon trigger discourages the Allies from attacking North Africa so Axis shouldn't need to worry about defending it as much
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Allies will get more PUs (Slightly) from West Afrika - as it is beefed up.
Allies gain 1 BB and 1 DD for free once West Afrika is freed plus X infantries around that zone, which by far will outweight any losses they suffer against 3 INFs (Can't see Germany easily affording planes there)Vichy fleets defends there, certainly - but Allies can simply do, as you pointed out - their regular Norway / North France tantrum there and simply disregard that change.
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Ok so after some further consideration and some valuable input from youz people, I have changed and adapted my vision for Africa and the Vichy Regime.
These are not minor changes to the vision but represent a dramatic departure from the original design. Many of the components of the preceding design remain but have been altered or changed.
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All the established PU changes remain the same... Morocco +1 PU (2 total), Tunisia +1 PU (2 total), West Africa +1 PU (2 total), Nigeria +1 PU (2 total)
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The game starting German Protectorates
are reduced to Morocco and Algeria. As long as both Protectorates remain, Germany will receive a free Material in Vichy France every turn. -
If either Protectorate is liberated by an Allied power the following will happen...
A) The free Materials will be lost for the remainder of the game.
B ) All Vichy territories on the Mediterranean (Vichy France, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Southwestern Algeria, Southern Algeria) that remain under Axis control will become German Occupation Zones. All PU generated in these territories will be collected by Germany.
D) All Production Facilities excluding Barracks will become German.
E) Germany will now be prompted to pay 1 PU per vessel to attempt to prevent the scuttling of the Vichy fleet at Toulon. Germany will have a 2/12 chance for each PU invested to stop the scuttle attempt. Surviving units join the Kriegsmarine.
I think these adaptations will make it a new and challenging prospect for both sides.
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Sub and Destroyer mechanics all done.
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Vichy fleet all created.
Now I just need the conditions and triggers to make it all work.
If anyone wants to help with this... I'd be more than willing to accept help. As conditions and trigger are not my forte.
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@hepps I can help you out in exchange for some future beautification favors on my project.
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@general_zod OOH the trade wars start
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@hepps A couple clarifications for me required.
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If Algeria (as a German Protectorate only) is taken by allies instead of Morocco, (not listed) I assume the Germans still gain the remaining 5 Vichy med territories (German Protectorates change into German Occupations). Correct?
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In this version allies essentially auto scuttle anything in Toulon fleet that Germans (trigger) can't save/capture. Meaning no other mechanisms?
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Desired, exact timing in sequence? ie: prompt, unit changes, scuttles, territory changes
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Do German Protectorates get any free infantry like Allied Protectorates (exiled?) do, if liberated? Just ask because this would be a consistent mechanism with the existing mechanism.
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Differences of German Protectorate, German Occupation and German Owned behaviors if any?
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Free Vichy material behavior?
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Does Vichy barracks get removed on German Occupation?
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Fate of Corsica?
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@general_zod said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:
@hepps A couple clarifications for me required.
- If Algeria (as a German Protectorate only) is taken by allies instead of Morocco, (not listed) I assume the Germans still gain the remaining 5 Vichy med territories (German Protectorates change into German Occupations). Correct?
Both are listed as requirements. The Liberation of either terr. produces the same result.
- In this version allies essentially auto scuttle anything in Toulon fleet that Germans (trigger) can't save/capture. Meaning no other mechanisms?
No. The scuttling happens when either Protectorate is liberated. The Germans have to invest 1 PU per unit (7 Vichy units) to try and prevent the scuttle attempt.
- Desired, exact timing in sequence?
Well since either USA or Britain (I guess Russia as well, but really.... not really) can liberate. So ideally the Vichy fleet thing would be immediately following each Allied combat move.
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@hepps Would it be better to have the scuttle event during beginning or end of Germany's turn since they are now the one making a decision? This also prevents UK taking it then USA killing the remaining units.
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@hepps said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:
@general_zod said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:
@hepps A couple clarifications for me required.
- If Algeria (as a German Protectorate only) is taken by allies instead of Morocco, (not listed) I assume the Germans still gain the remaining 5 Vichy med territories (German Protectorates change into German Occupations). Correct?
Both are listed as requirements. The Liberation of either terr. produces the same result.
I meant in the list of what get liberated, but understood.
- In this version allies essentially auto scuttle anything in Toulon fleet that Germans (trigger) can't save/capture. Meaning no other mechanisms?
No. The scuttling happens when either Protectorate is liberated. The Germans have to invest 1 PU per unit (7 Vichy units) to try and prevent the scuttle attempt.>
Referring to after the liberation takes place, but understood.
- Desired, exact timing in sequence?
Well since either USA or Britain (I guess Russia as well, but really.... not really) can liberate. So ideally the Vichy fleet thing would be immediately following each Allied combat move.
Yeah I agree that the German turn is ideal as @redrum pointed out.
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Sure. I guess that's fair. I think it felt more natural to me for it to happen immediately.
But at the start of the next German turn would be good.
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Armour & Tactical Bombers
I feel that armour is less used an amount, now that the AT got beefed up with its cyclical fire.
I suggest that armour gets +1 attack as well with the Improved Armour tech.Tactical Bombers are rarely seen beyond the starting allotment. In general a fighter (either type) is more versatile in attack and defence. Even more so as Fighters get the improved range rather easily (same branch) while TACs need strategic technology as prerequisite, so ultimately a Fighter has matching attack of a Tac or differs of 1 (and it's not something you can easily mass to cut a large difference), and Tac helps tanks which are not overly used as of now.
So I feel Tactical Bombers too should get some beef in a way or another. -
@shonn I have felt for a while now that the key lies in reducing the effectiveness of fighters rather than adding more power else where.
