Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5

[Hepps]

@prastle Every rub deserves a little tug.

[prastle]

@hepps All bots updated

[oigroig78]

Nice to hear, and wishing to test...
After the desert troops suggestion, I would like to suggest a new adding for future releases: Commercial raider/auxiliary cruiser, they played a role in the first stage of WW2...

Thanks for this beautiful game

[wirkey]

@oigroig78 I don't think we need another unit. But in the upcoming GLobal Dominance with its shipping lanes this might be a nice idea, if those units have some special abilities.

[Hepps]

@oigroig78 Thanks for the suggestions.

TWW is for the most part a complete work. Many of the most recent additions to the game have been done simply to include some of features made available through the hard work of @redrum . These were added to TWW as a method to both; test and showcase them to the community. At this point I consider TWW a finished peice of work other than to continue testing for balance and tweaking for functionality.

Your suggestions however are not falling on deaf ears. Work on Global Dominance (the expansion to TWW) is moving forward with vigor.

GD will represent a more comprehensive envisioning of WWII.

1. 'Merchant Raider' is definitely on the table already as potential idea. The key to its design and implementation really hinges on the further development of a feature request.

2. 'Desert terrain' has already been defined conceptually. Whether that leads to having a specific category of Infantry units or not remains to be seen.

I am glad you are enjoying TWW and I hope that you will dip your toe in the dark waters of GD once it is ready.

[Hepps]

Realized that I never went back to examine the Capital Liberation issues. Will re-examine over the next little while. This portion of XML manipulation is not within my comfort zone so I might be a while examining it.

On top of that I have also decided to make one last addition to the TWW 2.8 franchise due to other changes already made...

Since the changes to Strat. Bombing have reduced the effectiveness of bombing campaigns.... I will be making some changes to the Hvy. Strat. Bomber unit to increase its appeal as a potential long-term strategy and Tech pursuit.

The Hvy. Strat. Bomber will now become a 2 hit unit. It will suffer from the same reductions in performance as the other 2 hit units and will require repairs to be made to it when damaged.

I shall be examining the stats for both types of Strat. Bombers and making some decisions about their capabilities.

[zlefin]

how would repairs for it work? 2 hit air can end up bein crazy powerful if you're not careful.
and if the changes to strat bombing have made it too weak, why not simply undo some of those and up the bombing damage rates a bit?

[Hepps]

@zlefin I Suppose I will have to be careful then.

Remember I am all about testing new idea's... not so much about regurgitating watered down versions of existing one's.

[zlefin]

and aren't there some other tech paths/trees which are underutilized?
any other balance issues to be addressed?

[redrum]

@Hepps For reference, we need to eventually look into the Capital Liberation fix here: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/493/total-world-war-december-1941-beta-2-8-0-4/140

Regarding 2 hit air units, they tend to be very strong because generally its easy to repair them every round so they become like a free HP each turn.

@zlefin I do think some of the tech paths and a few units probably need buffed a bit to make them more viable from a balance perspective. But we haven't had that many games of 2.8.0.3 and 2.8.0.4 played yet to base things on. It would be interesting to have some sort of discussion/ranking of existing techs in 2.8.0.4 and say identify the weakest/least used 5-10 techs.

[zlefin]

the sample space is indeed a bit small; i've only got one game. which leaves extrapolation based on trends in the game established by prior versions, or waiting for more data.
It's also tricky as metagame shifts or changes in one area propagate through and can make other combos much better/worse.
I'd be up for a discussion; or we can just wait awhile and see how things shake out.

on another note: I've realized that fighters sent to escort bombers on a bombing run don't get shot at by AA guns in the target territory. that seems odd, why does the fighter get to not get hit by AA, despite being over the target province?
also, what modifiers affect the air defense value?

[Hepps]

@zlefin & @redrum The priorities for techs tends to be fairly consistent. That is not to say certain techs aren't valuable... yet under utilized because players continue to follow the same patterns regardless of what is available.

While some of the techs are consistently a lower priority.... it makes sense. As an example you can look at something like "Improved Gunlaying" which is sorely under utilized.... however, with the double Bombard of the BB this tech can be extremely valuable. +2 for each BB and +1 for each CC during an Amphibious assault. No small bonus for a nation like Japan at the start of the game. Does the fact that most players ignore it make it underpowered? No just under utilized because players choose other priorities.

I am open to discussion... but I feel like for the most part the Tech Chart is fairly well balanced. Low priority Techs aren't necessarily under powered.... they are simply deemed not as important due to the pressures exerted by your opponent and the immediate needs of your nation.

To be honest the only three techs that I see consistantly over looked are...

1. Gunlaying - which makes sense. It can be valuable but is often overlooked until later in a game.
2. Improved Submarines - which is hit and miss as far as usage depending on the player.
3. Improved Strat Bombers - which has always been the case since few players have ever really tried a bombing strategy. (Which is weird since the few games I have seen where a player has actively pursued a Bombing strat. have fared very well.)

---

EDIT (redrum): I'd probably add 2 more techs from tier 1 to the list of overlooked:
4) Improved Hulls - Similar situation as Gunlaying.
5) Rockets - Similar situation as Improved Strat Bombers.

Generally, naval and strat bombing techs are probably the least used. Strat bombing is tough to say on balance given the changes were pretty significant in 2.8. Naval techs will always be a bit more niche since they only apply to really UK, USA, and Japan. But overall, naval techs feel kind of weak even with BB having 2 rolls buffing Gunlaying and Improved Hulls. It would probably be better if those 3 nations were at least considering more of the naval techs in the early/mid game.

[Hepps]

@zlefin Yes due to the way the game defines the escort role... the fighters are never actually engaged in the bombing run itself.

Really you can look at this in a specific way... that the fighters are there while enemy interceptors are in the air... then they peel away and head for home before the bombers head into the targets. Thus the AA are only firing once their own fighters either return to base or have been shot down.

I would be curious if the behavior could even be changed... since the bombing run is actually its own battle.

[Hepps]

@zlefin said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.4:

also, what modifiers affect the air defense value?

I don't believe air attack and defense values are affected by anything during an air battle.

[CrazyG]

I've yet to see a savegame where someone used rockets at all effectively. I really hesisitate to build them, now that they have a chance to do nothing at all. I am missing out?

[Hepps]

@crazyg Well people have been gun shy of anything bombing since the changes.

[redrum]

PR to fix the engine bug that non-purchaseable units don't properly read the manual TUV XML option: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/pull/3357.

Here is the damaged-BB (17) and damaged-ACC (16) for a total of 33 TUV:

[wirkey]

there is one more thing, that is bothering me:
If the your capital is occupied and an allied liberates any of your original territories, those territories won't be controlled by the liberator, but the original owner after one turn. No way you can build infrastructure there. This is especially a problem if the Allies are trying to liberate Russia through Siberia or China coming from the Coast.

[Hepps]

@hepps I agree with Rockets. I think my oversight of that Tech demonstrates just how far off the radar it is... But Improved Hulls gets used very frequently.

Of course to say naval techs are a bigger priority for nations whose strategy is prominently reliant on naval action is pretty self evident. Not sure balance or strength of Techs could ever be fairly evaluated by looking at all the nations, but rather if those nations that can benefit from a Tech, actually use it.

As far as Rockets is concerned... I had already considered making changes to the unit costs after I changed the bombing behaviors. I simply wanted to get the bombing changes completed before going making any dramatic changes to them.

[Hepps]

It is important to note that my observations about Techs have been addressed in my work on GD. The Tech chart for GD has been increased by +20 Techs. This has been done as a way of creating more interest in some of the categories... while also extending the research process in others. It is also due in part to some of the changes that have been made to certain aspects of game-play... ie. Separate air battles.... Sub & Destroyer rule changes.... changes to how economics works... changes to Diplomacy. The changes also create more defined paths between offensive and defensive abilities so that nations have the opportunity to counter an opponent based on their position relative to them.

Furthermore I am currently working on changes to how R&D operates. I am trying to create a system where multiple Tech paths are pursued simultaneously. This is also being designed in such a way as to encourage/force pursuing each branch to yield the best results from the R&D resource you generate each turn.