Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5

[zlefin]

how would repairs for it work? 2 hit air can end up bein crazy powerful if you're not careful.
and if the changes to strat bombing have made it too weak, why not simply undo some of those and up the bombing damage rates a bit?

[Hepps]

@zlefin I Suppose I will have to be careful then.

Remember I am all about testing new idea's... not so much about regurgitating watered down versions of existing one's.

[zlefin]

and aren't there some other tech paths/trees which are underutilized?
any other balance issues to be addressed?

[redrum]

@Hepps For reference, we need to eventually look into the Capital Liberation fix here: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/493/total-world-war-december-1941-beta-2-8-0-4/140

Regarding 2 hit air units, they tend to be very strong because generally its easy to repair them every round so they become like a free HP each turn.

@zlefin I do think some of the tech paths and a few units probably need buffed a bit to make them more viable from a balance perspective. But we haven't had that many games of 2.8.0.3 and 2.8.0.4 played yet to base things on. It would be interesting to have some sort of discussion/ranking of existing techs in 2.8.0.4 and say identify the weakest/least used 5-10 techs.

[zlefin]

the sample space is indeed a bit small; i've only got one game. which leaves extrapolation based on trends in the game established by prior versions, or waiting for more data.
It's also tricky as metagame shifts or changes in one area propagate through and can make other combos much better/worse.
I'd be up for a discussion; or we can just wait awhile and see how things shake out.

on another note: I've realized that fighters sent to escort bombers on a bombing run don't get shot at by AA guns in the target territory. that seems odd, why does the fighter get to not get hit by AA, despite being over the target province?
also, what modifiers affect the air defense value?

[Hepps]

@zlefin & @redrum The priorities for techs tends to be fairly consistent. That is not to say certain techs aren't valuable... yet under utilized because players continue to follow the same patterns regardless of what is available.

While some of the techs are consistently a lower priority.... it makes sense. As an example you can look at something like "Improved Gunlaying" which is sorely under utilized.... however, with the double Bombard of the BB this tech can be extremely valuable. +2 for each BB and +1 for each CC during an Amphibious assault. No small bonus for a nation like Japan at the start of the game. Does the fact that most players ignore it make it underpowered? No just under utilized because players choose other priorities.

I am open to discussion... but I feel like for the most part the Tech Chart is fairly well balanced. Low priority Techs aren't necessarily under powered.... they are simply deemed not as important due to the pressures exerted by your opponent and the immediate needs of your nation.

To be honest the only three techs that I see consistantly over looked are...

1. Gunlaying - which makes sense. It can be valuable but is often overlooked until later in a game.
2. Improved Submarines - which is hit and miss as far as usage depending on the player.
3. Improved Strat Bombers - which has always been the case since few players have ever really tried a bombing strategy. (Which is weird since the few games I have seen where a player has actively pursued a Bombing strat. have fared very well.)

---

EDIT (redrum): I'd probably add 2 more techs from tier 1 to the list of overlooked:
4) Improved Hulls - Similar situation as Gunlaying.
5) Rockets - Similar situation as Improved Strat Bombers.

Generally, naval and strat bombing techs are probably the least used. Strat bombing is tough to say on balance given the changes were pretty significant in 2.8. Naval techs will always be a bit more niche since they only apply to really UK, USA, and Japan. But overall, naval techs feel kind of weak even with BB having 2 rolls buffing Gunlaying and Improved Hulls. It would probably be better if those 3 nations were at least considering more of the naval techs in the early/mid game.

[Hepps]

@zlefin Yes due to the way the game defines the escort role... the fighters are never actually engaged in the bombing run itself.

Really you can look at this in a specific way... that the fighters are there while enemy interceptors are in the air... then they peel away and head for home before the bombers head into the targets. Thus the AA are only firing once their own fighters either return to base or have been shot down.

I would be curious if the behavior could even be changed... since the bombing run is actually its own battle.

[Hepps]

@zlefin said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.4:

also, what modifiers affect the air defense value?

I don't believe air attack and defense values are affected by anything during an air battle.

[CrazyG]

I've yet to see a savegame where someone used rockets at all effectively. I really hesisitate to build them, now that they have a chance to do nothing at all. I am missing out?

[Hepps]

@crazyg Well people have been gun shy of anything bombing since the changes.

[redrum]

PR to fix the engine bug that non-purchaseable units don't properly read the manual TUV XML option: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/pull/3357.

Here is the damaged-BB (17) and damaged-ACC (16) for a total of 33 TUV:

[wirkey]

there is one more thing, that is bothering me:
If the your capital is occupied and an allied liberates any of your original territories, those territories won't be controlled by the liberator, but the original owner after one turn. No way you can build infrastructure there. This is especially a problem if the Allies are trying to liberate Russia through Siberia or China coming from the Coast.

[Hepps]

@hepps I agree with Rockets. I think my oversight of that Tech demonstrates just how far off the radar it is... But Improved Hulls gets used very frequently.

Of course to say naval techs are a bigger priority for nations whose strategy is prominently reliant on naval action is pretty self evident. Not sure balance or strength of Techs could ever be fairly evaluated by looking at all the nations, but rather if those nations that can benefit from a Tech, actually use it.

As far as Rockets is concerned... I had already considered making changes to the unit costs after I changed the bombing behaviors. I simply wanted to get the bombing changes completed before going making any dramatic changes to them.

[Hepps]

It is important to note that my observations about Techs have been addressed in my work on GD. The Tech chart for GD has been increased by +20 Techs. This has been done as a way of creating more interest in some of the categories... while also extending the research process in others. It is also due in part to some of the changes that have been made to certain aspects of game-play... ie. Separate air battles.... Sub & Destroyer rule changes.... changes to how economics works... changes to Diplomacy. The changes also create more defined paths between offensive and defensive abilities so that nations have the opportunity to counter an opponent based on their position relative to them.

Furthermore I am currently working on changes to how R&D operates. I am trying to create a system where multiple Tech paths are pursued simultaneously. This is also being designed in such a way as to encourage/force pursuing each branch to yield the best results from the R&D resource you generate each turn.

[zlefin]

@hepps
when I press "I" to get info on a unit it says fighters have 5 air attack and 5 air defense; but their actual air defense value in is 6 in practice.
maybe the I generator is simply not getting the correct info, or is generating incorrect text.

oh yeah, and the I on battleships simply says 5 bombard; rather than 5x2 bombard.
so probably just issues with the text generation by the I command.

[Hepps]

@zlefin Yeah... the "I" info is lacking in some area's. In reference to the BB it is because the engine has never been set up to deal with multiple bombards per unit, so it does not know to render the info. There are always pains when you are the first to market with a concept.

I'll check the fighters.... I don't know if we perhaps changed it but never changed the manual. I'll get back to you.

[zlefin]

@hepps
on the escort role stuff;
In some cases, if I were orderin the troops, I'd say to have my fighters wait until the enemy escorts leave and then engage the bombers. thus the enemy fighters would have to stay with the bombers while over the target (and get hit by the aa), or else my fighters would engage them then.

I suppose it doesn't matter too much though from a game balance perspective, especially with how weak strat bombing is right now.
at times it felt like a weird sort of anti-synergy (which is irksome from a gameplay perspective), where having both fighters to intercept bombing, and aa guns to stop the bombers, was an inferior mix to just focusing on one of them.

[redrum]

@zlefin One thing to note is that AA is also significantly weaker against SBR so while SBR does less damage in 2.8, its more difficult to counter.

The main cause of it being better to focus on either AA or fighters to defend against SBR is due to how the intercept mechanic works. If you have more air defense from fighters than your enemy has air attack then you'll almost always choose to intercept and you get a positive TUV trade even if he does get some bombing in. If you have less air defense then your enemy has air attack then you'll usually choose not to intercept and the fighters are essentially useless. So it is a very black/white type mechanic and if you are going to try to use fighters to defend against SBR then you pretty much have to focus on them to ensure you have the bigger stack.

[zlefin]

aye; I think with sbr the problem now is more the opportunity cost than anything else.
I haven't yet faced someone seriously trying it these days; maybe i'll try it some myself, though there's few circumstances where it feels like it'd be a truly good choice.

[Hepps]

@zlefin The other reason why the escort mechanic works as it currently is... is that if the escort fighters stayed for the Bombing run and you were playing with random AA rolls... then you would likely never hit a bomber ever since you could simply obsorb all AA shots with your fighter aircraft.