Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5

[Hepps]

@redrum Sure, I get what you are saying. I guess that is why I opened the discussion up to debate. I definitely get the appeal of having them available immediately. I think we've all been is a situation where we could have benefited from being able to rebuild sooner.

The other half of the equation is whether I can make either system work free of user enforced rules.

[wirkey]

@hepps it will almost certainly get too complicated but my favorite would be a mix of both: materials resulting from destroyed production facilities shouldn't be moveable while captured materials should be.

[wirkey]

@hepps did you take a look at it? I've tested several possibilities with transports and air transports coming from different territories aswell as the bombardment. And for me it looks like it'S certain that the bombard is triggered by the air transport flying over the SZ with the bombarding unit. Besides that, it only occurs if there is also an amphib assault, just paradropping won't trigger a bombard.

[Hepps]

@wirkey I haven't tested. I imagine it has always been the case. I would need to install an older engine and recheck with 2.7.7.2.

I will look at it as soon as I can.

[redrum]

@wirkey I'm guessing the engine checks "did a land unit's route come over X sea territory adjacent to the battle site" and if so then allow bombardment from there. But I'd need to reproduce it and take a look at the code. Meaning that this has probably always been the case for TWW para and probably affects other maps as well.

[Hepps]

So here is the next phase of the new experimental 3.0

The French Fleet at Toulon...

[Shonn]

I'd make it that Allies need to liberate all 3 of the protectorates or at least 2.
1 is a bit too easy I feel - considering the can land cheaply in 1 or simply paradrop Tunisia in turn2.

Also the trigger for sinking it - any ship that survives should go to Germany though (Captured before it scuttled).

In general I feel a good change and shields Vichy from premature naval invasions.

[Hepps]

@shonn said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:

I'd make it that Allies need to liberate all 3 of the protectorates or at least 2.
1 is a bit too easy I feel - considering the can land cheaply in 1 or simply paradrop Tunisia in turn2.

Well if you think about it the idea is meant to really penalize the Allies if they attempt a premature landing in North Africa. If the Allies choose to quickly take 1 territory early (let's assume your turn 2 paradrop into Tunisia)... first off they will likely not have the available resources to hold the territory. Therefore it would in all likelihood be retaken by Germany or Italy on either of their very next turn. So now Germany would be up 2 PU per turn and now have a location for a German production facility in the Mediterranean (or worse yet in the Atlantic if they took Morrocco)... still be earning a free material in Vichy for having 2 of the 3 Protectorates... and the Exiled Allies would not even have enough PU to attempt to scuttle the entire Vichy fleet. Thereby handing over at VERY minimum 4 ships to Germany guaranteed!

I don't really think that would be advantageous to the Allied cause.

Also the trigger for sinking it - any ship that survives should go to Germany though (Captured before it scuttled).

Sorry, I thought that was clearly implied in what I wrote. Yes surviving ships become German.

In general I feel a good change and shields Vichy from premature naval invasions.

[Shonn]

Also is the trigger to scuttle the ships a one shot go on the instant the thing happens?
Because it could be somehow comfortable if the Allies can decide to withstand with said option to do it later.

Considering the Germans would immediately seize the ships I believe it should be a question that happens immediately - and if you forfeit it the whole fleet activates as German units.
Does it work that way?

Or the Allies can worm their way in North Afrika and use that option at their leisure, while keeping Vichy fleet inactive?
Also does it happen the turn after the UK took a province there, or immediately in the same turn they take it? (As per if the Germany or Italy retake the area they cannot scuttle Vichy ships)

Is there a scuttling order (ie. first the tranny, then the DDs, etc) or in general Allies can choose what to scuttle (selecting targets)? Or is it randomly decided (Pay X per ship you want to scuttle, then then Y ships are rolled for selected by a neutral AI)?

[Hepps]

So here is the entire picture of the setup thus far.

The progression builds on the preceding examples and the last additions are designed to raise the stakes further and give balance to both sides.

[Hepps]

@shonn said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:

Also is the trigger to scuttle the ships a one shot go on the instant the thing happens?
Because it could be somehow comfortable if the Allies can decide to withstand with said option to do it later.

Considering the Germans would immediately seize the ships I believe it should be a question that happens immediately - and if you forfeit it the whole fleet activates as German units.
Does it work that way?

No the Allies do not have the option to choose when it happens. If you Attack and liberate a North African Protectorate... the activation of the scuttling attempt and the transfer of surviving vessels to the Kriegsmarine is immediate. The entire idea behind this concept is to make the North African Campaign and Operation Torch a bigger commitment on the part of the Allies. Thus either you commit to neutralize North Africa or you avoid it like the plague.

The reason I am designing it as an immediate event is really twofold...

Firstly, historically speaking the Fleet and the Admiralty at Toulon would have had sketchy information at best when North African actions had commenced. So the Vichy Admiralty would have had to make a snap decision about what to do. I am trying to recreate this by forcing the Allies to be prepared prior to attacking North Africa or suffer the consequences.

Secondly, if the Allies can fire this trigger at their discretion... then nothing has changed. North Africa would then have no potential negative impact on Allied efforts even if the attempts were simply feeble or had no real chance of success.

Or the Allies can worm their way in North Afrika and use that option at their leisure, while keeping Vichy fleet inactive?
Also does it happen the turn after the UK took a province there, or immediately in the same turn they take it? (As per if the Germany or Italy retake the area they cannot scuttle Vichy ships)

The Scuttle attempts happens immediately upon the liberation of a Protectorate. Either at the end of the American or British turn.

Is there a scuttling order (ie. first the tranny, then the DDs, etc) or in general Allies can choose what to scuttle (selecting targets)? Or is it randomly decided (Pay X per ship you want to scuttle, then then Y ships are rolled for selected by a neutral AI)?

Still have to work on the mechanics of how it works. Ideally I would like for the British player to select his targets. So that if the Exiled Allies do not have enough PU to target all vessels... they can at the very least attempt to target the highest priority units. ie. targeting the BB and CC prior to the transports, DD or subs.

[Shonn]

Hmm - I think it should be at random. Pay X PU for the roll for 1 ship and the system randomly selects the amount of ships you pay for.

Considering the amount of Allied Infantry that can spawn around - and how hard Germany instead can get theirs I'd beef up forces in the Vichy zone.
You can simply add trenches to prevent the Axis go rampant on the offensive. 1 trench in Gold Coast and 1 in Frech West Afrika.

The Dakar Vichy fleet is something I thought of - and it's good that it has been added. That way the German tranny there can go and 'hide' in it, and have a form of protection in the first turn(s) - even if it on the long run can turn Allied.

[Hepps]

@shonn said in Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5:

Hmm - I think it should be at random. Pay X PU for the roll for 1 ship and the system randomly selects the amount of ships you pay for.

That is a highly volatile proposition. The idea is to make the Vichy fleet at Toulon HUGE deterrent to attacking the French coast. But if the Allies can't dictate where their efforts for scuttling are focused... it could create a huge imbalance in lucky swings. The destruction of the fleet should be a highly probable event with only a slight chance for the Axis to gain from it. I still want the Allies to have an option to plan a Raid on North Africa if they are trying to prevent a build up without it having a high probability of having a potentially massive new German fleet activating.

Considering the amount of Allied Infantry that can spawn around - and how hard Germany instead can get theirs I'd beef up forces in the Vichy zone.

I think currently it would be pretty balanced. It might take Germany a couple rounds to make a concerted effort to strengthen North Africa or Western Africa... but the potential cost to the Allies through an early invasion are steep (remember the Exiled Allies do not have enough PU on turn 1 and 2 to scuttle the entire Vichy Fleet, so any attack in the first 2 rounds would give the Axis Mediterranean effort a huge boost). This is meant to force both sides to reconsider the early and mid game priorities. Every decision on this front has cascade effects on other fronts. ie. If the British and Americans make West Africa and North Africa a priority... the Defense of Cairo suffers as does the battle in the Pacific as well as any European invasion.... if the Germans press to develop the Africa's then the Battle for Cairo and the Eastern Front suffers. The longer North Africa is left unmolested... the Stronger the Atlantic wall gets via free materials in Vichy. The entire thing is being designed to force more trade offs.

You can simply add trenches to prevent the Axis go rampant on the offensive. 1 trench in Gold Coast and 1 in Frech West Afrika.

Right now the Allies have little in the way of good chances to threaten West Africa. If Germany decides to it can reinforce West Africa with a Naval fighter by as early as turn 2.

Gold coast is a crap shoot as well. Especially now that the Gibraltar Fleet has to go around the vichy Fleet at Dakar to get to it. If the British turn the DD & Transport around off South Africa... Cairo and control of the Mediterranean are once again in jeopardy. So West Africa becomes a big question mark for both sides.

The Dakar Vichy fleet is something I thought of - and it's good that it has been added. That way the German tranny there can go and 'hide' in it, and have a form of protection in the first turn(s) - even if it on the long run can turn Allied.

It cannot turn Allied. It may move into the SZ with the demobilized Vichy Fleet and help defend... but it does not change into a Vichy vessel. Even if Western Africa is Liberated... it would remain German while the Vichy vessels would become British.

[Schulz]

It would be better honestly if you remove flag icons from unit images.

[Shonn]

What I meant with the German tranny is that it can go in the SZ with the Vichy fleet, and if the Allies attack the tranny they also attack the Vichy fleet. Not that the tranny converts to Vichy.

But by what I saw the Brits can land in West Afrika without having to go around any Vichy Fleet since West Afrika borders with 2 zones.

[Hepps]

@schulz You are free to replace all the unit images yourself if you do not like them. I would be happy to include them as a second alternate set within the game if you do them and make them available. But I am not going back and redoing 300+ unit images.

[Hepps]

@shonn Yes they can... and with 1 marine and a CC bombard on turn 1 they have a 13% chance of winning the battle. While also... depending on what Germany does on turn 1... have a very high likelihood of loosing the CC, DD and transport on the following turn.

[Shonn]

The Germans struggle to bring reinforcements there whereas the Allies can simply wait to Turn2 or Turn3 to gain a richer region, capable of hosting UK facility too in Nigeria - their tradeoff is less pressure in Europe in these turns, which is fair but I do not think it balances out properly once turn 5 is hit or so.
Without sacrificing much of the Cairo defence.

Anyhow - good to see that there are changes and will see how they pan out in practical terms.

[General_Zod]

@hepps I like the concept of including the French fleets in a historically accurate manor. However, I wonder if it's still logical for allies to get to scuttle the Toulon fleet at normal rate if at all, assuming the axis has ships in Toulon waters as well.

Perhaps another condition would be prudent. Like no axis surface vessels in Toulon waters for the scuttle option to be given to allies. In addition to the liberation conditions.

An alternate idea for ya. Have you considered making the Toulon fleet SBR bombable, then allies can go in and target the ships they want to scuttle anytime.

Edit: Or make them SBR bombable once the liberation(s) takes place (and no axis cruiser/bb/acc present) . Rather than the pay to scuttle prompts. Also once allies meet the condition, the fleet is allowed to be captured by axis marines or vessels on a 1:1 basis ideally. This would prompt a race.

[Shonn]

The 'problem' of the man is that the Axis can easily keep a ship there though because Vichy is de facto producing German troops under all terms.
Unless the requirement is to have X PUs kept in Vichy or that Sea-Zone to represent German forces ready to intervene (Even if Vichy produced they're not used elsewhere to be ready to grab ships)