Large Middle Earth queries

[Hepps]

@redrum Ahhh forgot about the three HP units.

Then the secondary hypothetical capitals would work perfectly.

[mattbarnes]

In the short term, should I assume that the non-repairing Eagles are unintended and therefore use Edit to correct, or do I just accept that "the game is the game" for now?

[alkexr]

@mattbarnes Non-repairing eagles are clearly unintended. But it's up to you and whomever you're playing with to decide how you handle the situation. The intended rule is "repair", the game-enforced rule is "don't repair", you have to decide which is more important to you.

[mattbarnes]

Hey one more minor point for your list, in case you want to hear it: it appears as though ships can travel up the river through Tharbad, even if the town is in enemy hands. Presumably not intended?

[mattbarnes]

Still loving the game, by the way.

[alkexr]

@mattbarnes I used territory connections instead of canals, because canals just simply refused to work. I have asked it like three times on the old and the new forum, got no response. Feel free to make them work

[Cernel]

@alkexr If you ask again, I may take a look. Canals always work for me so far. You can also make canals that, like, allow some (the bigger) ships to never be able to pass through, so having only some ships being riverable (like the small ones yes if you own the canal but the big ones never in rivers). Probably better in a separate topic, but whatever.

[redrum]

@alkexr Glad to take a look as well. You should be able to have cities on the river act as canals. Civil War uses canals extensively for both rivers and rails so has lots of good examples: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/triplea-maps/civil_war/master/map/games/Civil_War.xml

[alkexr]

@redrum @Cernel Canals are in the xml in comments. The territory connections currently overriding them are under "<!--THEESE SHOULD BE CANALS-->". I have taken many looks on many maps that had working canals, to no avail.

<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentHarnen" attatchTo="sz Lower Harnen" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Crossings of Harnen Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Crossings of Harnen"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentHarnen" attatchTo="sz Upper Harnen" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Crossings of Harnen Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Crossings of Harnen"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentOsgiliath" attatchTo="sz Lower Anduin 2" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Osgiliath Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Osgiliath"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentOsgiliath" attatchTo="sz Lower Anduin 3" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Osgiliath Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Osgiliath"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentCairAndros" attatchTo="sz Lower Anduin 3" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Cair Andros Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Cair Andros"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentCairAndros" attatchTo="sz Lower Anduin 4" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Cair Andros Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Cair Andros"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentOldFord" attatchTo="sz Upper Anduin 4" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Old Ford Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Old Ford"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentOldFord" attatchTo="sz Upper Anduin 5" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Old Ford Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Old Ford"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentCarrock" attatchTo="sz Upper Anduin 5" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Carrock Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Carrock"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentCarrock" attatchTo="sz Upper Anduin 6" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Carrock Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Carrock"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentDorwinion" attatchTo="sz Celduin 1" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Dorwinion Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Dorwinion"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentDorwinion" attatchTo="sz Sea of Rhun" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Dorwinion Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Dorwinion"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentTharbad" attatchTo="sz Greyflood 2" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Tharbad Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Tharbad"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentTharbad" attatchTo="sz Greyflood 3" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Tharbad Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Tharbad"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentLastBridge" attatchTo="sz Mitheithel 1" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Last Bridge Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Last Bridge"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentLastBridge" attatchTo="sz Mitheithel 2" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Last Bridge Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Last Bridge"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentSarnFord" attatchTo="sz Baranduin 2" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Sarn Ford Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Sarn Ford"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentSarnFord" attatchTo="sz Baranduin 3" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Sarn Ford Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Sarn Ford"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentBrandywineBridge" attatchTo="sz Baranduin 3" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Brandywine Bridge Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Brandywine Bridge"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentBrandywineBridge" attatchTo="sz Baranduin 4" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Brandywine Bridge Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Brandywine Bridge"/>
</attatchment>
					
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentMithlond" attatchTo="sz Lhun" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Mithlond Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Mithlond"/>
</attatchment>
<attatchment name="canalAttatchmentMithlond" attatchTo="sz Gulf of Lhun" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attatchments.CanalAttachment" type="territory">
  <option name="canalName" value="Mithlond Canal"/>
  <option name="landTerritories" value="Mithlond"/>
</attatchment>

[Cernel]

@alkexr Those look fine to me, and should work.

I just tested the Harnen one, and works for me.

Also, despite being called canals, those things are actually booms. I wonder if that is the matter, since you say "THEESE SHOULD BE CANALS", while you should say "these should have canals (attached to them)".

Also, for display, I suggest refining the names, by removing the " Canal" part at the end of all canalName values, so that it reads more naturally; unless, maybe, there are some specific references, from the lore, you want to mention.

And wouldn't it be better dividing ships between those able to navigate rivers (if you control the crossings) and those that just never can (because they are too big)? That is possible too. Not sure if like caravels should be actually able to move through all those rivers.

Also maybe all or more nations should be able to produce ships. The fact that they can't place any at start or they never bothered having any so far doesn't mean that they couldn't build some if they want. Like here you make your own history; so why the freefolks should be unable to produce some ships, if they want to?

[redrum]

@alkexr Look fine except they have the old "attatch" spelling that needs fixed. If you fix the spelling and uncomment them then you should see the function to prevent ships crossing between the indicated sea zones unless the given land territories is allied controlled.

[Cernel]

@redrum The ones he has in the xml are actually spelled by latest; probably underwent the mass change.

[redrum]

@cernel Yeah, I see that now.

@alkexr I uncommented the canals and they seem to work fine. I added High Elves ships to the sea zones next to Crossings of Harnen and they then can't move through. But if I place Harad ships then I can move through. I think your confusion is that you ALWAYS need territory connections even if you have canals. Its not an either or type deal. Canals essentially block connections unless satisfied, they don't create/define connections. Here is the working XML: 0_1528151820768_Large_Middle_Earth.xml

Here is the PR to fix it: https://github.com/triplea-maps/large_middle_earth/pull/2

[Cernel]

@redrum Yeah, that's my guess, as well. But, if so, it's more of a TripleA fault, as it is really the name that's wrong/misleading. It's called canal, but it is a boom. Like if you add the Suez canal, you are not actually digging a canal there, but rather sort of the opposite. So maybe the problem is that he understood it "correctly", literally.

For example, the suez canal is actually not the canal, but the canal is simply the normal connection, while the so called canal is not the actual / real canal itself, but whatever allowing to close / control the canal.

[alkexr]

@redrum Yeah, thanks, that's what I got wrong. I won't merge that into master just yet, I plan to fix all bugs and everything and release a new major version by mid-june at the latest. I'll have a very limited amount of time during the next few weeks though.

[redrum]

@alkexr Oh ok. If the other bugs are just minor XML changes, I'm glad to add them in real quick as well.

[Cernel]

@alkexr Since I can imagine you lost a few hours over this thing, maybe this can help someone else in the future:
https://github.com/triplea-maps/the_pact_of_steel/pull/11

@redrum @LaFayette to merge.

p.s.: It also adds the description for a related property that I'm not seeing; so, I'm assuming it was never added?

[alkexr]

Err... did I say mid-june? I meant july... oh well. Seems I'll have more work next week than I thought...

[Hepps]

@alkexr if you are planning on re-envisioning this map.

I might suggest giving a few things some consideration.

With the wild myriad of different things going on, much of this map seems over whelming when trying to play it. Some visual cues could really enhance the experience.

Here is a quick mock up of an idea...

[alkexr]

@hepps I'm not (yet!) able to draw discernible pictograms of this size. But if you draw one for each special/ability/support, I'll put them on the unit images. These could also replace most of the text in tooltips. But I don't think numbers are that necessary to show on the map. The pictograms will be a nice cue as to what the unit is for, but if you want really detailed information like exact att/def/mov stats and such, well that's what consulting the tooltips is for. Aslo this many numbers would be rather overwhelming on the map, especially in areas where there are like 6 unit types per territory, not 2.

Also, I see that the beautification process is getting somewhere - this new Mindoullin is definitely not the northern dwarven lands you showed us before

If we indeed do decide to go down this path, then it's definitely not going to be done by mid-june. But then I would also improve territory names, add lotr-specific music, establish the means for procedurally generating tooltips (yeah that's a tough one), and two important gameplay changes:

• removing invisible crossings around the Undeeps and Tolfalas
• a big one that I've so far been reluctant to do: simplifying the territory effect mechanics while roughly keeping the magnitude of effects