Crazy Europe: House of Habsburg

[Cernel]

@crazyg The starting positions work. Also I noticed now Sweden goes first; that's a huge change, as before Sweden was doomed to fall easily. Balance, no point talking, game has changed a lot.
I won as Russia and won as Poland, so I don't really know who should be winning there.
The only problems I have with the starting stuff are of historical nature, and some I've already said.
I hate to have to see a St.Petersburg where there was a wasteland with a couple fortresses and was Russian anyways, not Swedish.
The Rhodes that is Italian is a minor matter, as it is recent, but then the Cyclades should be Italian, and mostly it seems too much to have a city in there, due to how rare cities are, and Crete and Cyprus were both much more populous than Rhodes.
Constantinople, at this time, was way bigger than any other cities. So it should be 15 (looking at the other cities around).
Also I think it would be so cooler if the map would have England and Scotland (England part of Habsburg and Scotland part of Franco). Leaving Britain neutral means that either it is out of the game or it is very easily farmable, that's really bad on historicity.
I see you went back not having a specific starting year. I think game sounds more neat if it refers to a specific year, even if you are not going to have it 100% on it.
So, long way to say that, as long as gameplay goes, the game seems sound to me, but I would wish you don't sacrifice historicity so much on the main things.

[Cernel]

@crazyg On unit balance, maybe there is not so much complementarity, due to the fact that costs are relatively very close, for an Axis & Allies style game. So I think it would be good making knights stronger and costing 24. Historically, however, this was the nadir of the cavalry and the time of the dominance of the infantry, as the massive formations of pikemen and musketeers were almost cavalry proof (tho the French couldn't possibly stop being horse lovers).

[CrazyG]

@hepps
I think all issues are solved and I spent all that time trying to solve a non-issue (not being able to move twice is completely undocumented, I've played for more than a decade and I wasn't aware of it.

@Cernel
Lets start with something which has been said more than a few time: gameplay comes first. I'm not intentionally sacrificing any historical accuracy either, the fact that saint petersburg didn't exist in the 16th century isn't common knowledge. And a quick google search revealed that there were important fortresses there, so I don't see what the issue is. I'm posted my source for the borders, Sweden controlled the area at the time.

Venice is the most valuable city because its Venice (it doesn't matter if Constaninople was bigger in population, Venice is wealthy).

I don't want neutral farming to be too strong. Is it actually a good idea to farm England though? You mentioned that France is dieing every game, could it be because they are invading England? You have to commit a ton of resources and you need 2 or 3 territories just to pay the maintenance for the units you send. I would much rather pressure Barcelona and try to spread the Habsburgs thin while the Ottomans go hard in Europe.

[Cernel]

@crazyg I wouldn't go for Britain; so for me now that part of the map is not part of the game, but I cannot say it for certain. Time will tell if Habsburg should go kill France first or not, I guess; only way is playing either ways, and see what seems working the best. If England and Scotland are not part of the game, it would be better to make them impassable, as it doesn't make sense that you can attack part of them and the rest doesn't fight back (like Spain or Turkey in NWO).

[Cernel]

@cernel Tho having a fleet in 56 is a serious annoyance for Habsburg, since you can drop in a bunch of territories in the Netherlands, that need to be defended, and, while waiting, you can use it to farm some. Still, doubt it's worth it, but not sure.

[CrazyG]

Pushed a small update

A few connections added
Some neutral units added
Venice controls the Cyclades

I want feedback on where to place the Italian city in the Eastern Mediteranean.

The issue with Crete is its very hard to defend because its two spaces from the Ottoman city in Athens, which is two spaces from the Ottoman capital. Just to hold it on turn 2, Venice needs to build a castle there. I can add some units, but all that does is allow to survive till round 4 or 5 instead of round 2.

You cannot defend it using navy for a very long time.

Rhodes is a lot less flexible for Venice, but much harder to take for the Ottomans.

Cyprus is too far away for Venice's home fleet to actually help.

[wc_sumpton]

@CrazyG
I wonder if @Hepps would allow you to borrow his dice folder. TWW uses a 12-sided dice, and those in TWW look nice.

Cheers...

[Cernel]

@crazyg So, historically Crete (better named as "Candy" at this timeline and if you are going to use English names) was the main dependency of Venice, tho the hulls and the high tech stuff would be produced in Venice, and, then, armed in Crete (it would make more sense if ships are produced in 2 turns, but the hulls should stay in land; maybe using that thing of the air unit with carrier cost 0).
So, historically, I would say 1 city able to produce 1 unit in Crete.
Don't really know about Cyprus, tho I think Crete and Cyprus would have about the same population.
For gameplay, the best may be having both a city in Candy and a city in Cyprus, both at production 1, and 1 or 2 villages in Rhodes, plus a castle in each of Rhodes, Crete and Cyprus.

For castles, I don't know. At this time there were fortifications pretty much everywhere, and, in your format, in which castles can only be 1 or 0 per territory, I've not really a clue what were the x% territories more castle intensive. Side note, with the current values, I think castles will be almost never bought, and, at most, only in very major chockepoints. The only cases I see are castles in France 46 and France 36, and even that I'm not sure it would be smart.

[Hepps]

Test from last night...

Missing connections

Russia 02 <-> Russia 17
SZ 127<-> SZ 134
Turkey 36 <->Turkey 40
SZ 150 <-> Albania 01
Turkey 58 <-> ALL surrounding Terr.
Turkey 57 <-> All surrounding Terr.
Turkey 35 <-> Turkey 32

Connections needing to be removed

SZ 98 <-> Spain 35
SZ 186 <-> Greece 02
Turkey 35 <-> Turkey 39
SZ 82 <-> SZ 83

[Cernel]

Also, I think in this map might be good having 1 (and only 1) territory effect: Mountains, given to about 10% of territories in the map (only those with major mountains). But this would need to be played and, eventually, reverted, if it wouldn't feel fun to deal with (I'm always very cautious suggesting adding territory effects, as I'm not a big fan of such things, but this map might use some mountains).

[CrazyG]

@cernel
Castles are really powerful. A castle with 2 pikemen inside is very difficult to take. The cheapest force I found to reliably take it would be 3 pikemen and 2 cannons, which would need 5 navies to transport. Would you really spend all those resources taking Crete, Rhodes, and Cyprus?

I see France building a castle in its southern city quite often (I think the Habsburgs can force France to build one there turn two if France does the opening you did in our game). They are weak in the Habsburg-Ottoman region because both sides have so many cannons, but I think that is fine. Its fine if they aren't built often, the starting castles affect the game a lot.

[Cernel]

@crazyg I don't think any of Crete, Rhodes of Cyprus have to be taken. I guessed you wanted some gameplay there, even all game long. Cyprus city would be a pretty big annoyance for the Ottomans, I think, but only if having a castle.

edit: Cyprus city I think might be something problematic for the Ottomans even withot a castle, but I'm not sure. Anyway, surely much more with.

edit: The maintainment costs, even if modest, are a bit of a gamechanger in garrisoning islands, as now, for example, if Italians have 4 units in Rhodes the Ottomans will be: LOL you can stay there it will just be -1 PUs for you. Otto just needs to stay at reach to punish shipbuilding, which you probably are already doing to keep in check the Italians from the west.

Really, I would rename the Italian States as Venice, since I see now they are mostly Venice (Genova is neutral). Also it's strange that Italy 08 and Italy 10 have different owner, since they would be both Genova territories (loosely). Also I'm not sure if at this time the Italians still rather identified themselves as "Lombards" ("Lombard States" instead of "Italian States", but not sure).

[CrazyG]

@cernel said in Crazy Europe: House of Habsburg:

edit: Cyprus city I think might be something problematic for the Ottomans even withot a castle, but I'm not sure. Anyway, surely much more with.

Ottomans have 6 fleets that can reach Crete on turn 2. So Venice either has to sack a navy to block the cyclades (which only buys you 1 turn) or build a castle. I'm open to moving units around, but you need a lot of changes. Seems to me that the city falls to the Ottomans and helps them if they want to continue a naval strategy, Venice never gets to use it. Rhodes tends to stay Venetian controlled for a long time, even without a castle. I like the position more.

All future "why does X territory begin controlled by Y" questions can be answered by looking at the source maps I posted.

@cernel said in Crazy Europe: House of Habsburg:

edit: The maintainment costs, even if modest, are a bit of a gamechanger in garrisoning islands, as now, for example, if Italians have 4 units in Rhodes the Ottomans will be: LOL you can stay there it will just be -1 PUs for you. Otto just needs to stay at reach to punish shipbuilding, which you probably are already doing to keep in check the Italians from the west.

Maintenance is just an experiment (one that you have advocated for as long as I can remember).

[Cernel]

@crazyg As I said, I tend to think that Cyprus city would need a castle too, but, in the first rounds, the Ottomans really want to focus as much as possible against the Habsburg; so whatever distraction is probably good for Franco.

I do believe that if Rhodes have a castle, then Ottoman would never try to invest for taking it, but I don't see this as a problem. Not sure about Crete, instead.

I suggest adding your referring map to the first post.

[CrazyG]

Update pushed- just missing connections (Hepps list and others)

[Hepps]

@crazyg One little thing you may want to consider...

Add a default sound property setting

Sound.Default.Folder=classical

or

Sound.Default.Folder=preindustrial

Not that I don't love the sound of tanks blitzing during a cavalry charge... but these sounds might feel slightly more.... authentic.

[Cernel]

@hepps Definitely preindustrial, my suggestion.

[CrazyG]

@hepps
Updating now

[Hepps]

@crazyg

[wc_sumpton]

@CrazyG
One last connection problem: France 08 to France 18 should be changed to France 08 to France 15

Cheers...