Iron War - Official Thread
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Any thoughts on a possible income bump or some more +5 spots for the land grab, to add to the pie over time?
I still like Benelux for the North Atlantic.
Buenos Aires for the South Atlantic.
Algeria and Greece for the Med.
Madagascar for the Indian Ocean.
Kamchatka and Southern Alaska for the North Pacific.
Okinawa and Midway for Central Pacific.
Malaya and Papua New Guinea for the South Pacific.
I think the addition of those spots at +5 would make for an interesting factory game in each of their respective theaters, with some interesting push and pull for the naval game. I think they pair off well against each other so the influx is fair to both teams. Probably most of the extra cash per round ends up going to more fuel barrels and such, but I think +5 territories add the most to the game overall for strategic depth and dynamism. The spots above would be adding around 45 PUs all in all to the map, but split over several nations/neutrals so I don't think it'd be too pronounced. All are contested regions allowing the income swing to either side depending on how people play it, so I think any of them could support a boost.
ps. Just started my first game with the new fuel system vs HardAI Allies using the pre-release. Was curious to see if the AI would purchase any synthetic fuel on its own, so far haven't seen one drop but it's still early. Maybe they will eventually place some so I'll play a few rounds to see. But on the player's side I like it. The price point at 5 PUs per barrel feels pretty good for what you get, and considering the fact that they're destroyed on capture. I think 10 would probably feel a little high, and a cost of 5 is also nice for the remainder purchasing thing, since it gives players something worthwhile to buy under the entry level combat unit (AAgun at 9). Clearly the return is better the sooner you buy the synthetic fuel, but I think there is definitely still some tension in early rounds to get out early with combat units and not spend too heavily on fuel. Germany especially really needs to throw everything and the kitchen sink at Leningrad to have a good shot on it before the Russians start stacking to the ceiling, so I think they might hold off a few rounds with fuel buys to focus on getting that early edge over the Soviets. Italy and Japan need to make big moves in the second round though, with a lot of re-positioning, so they're probably smart to get some fuel going sooner rather than later, but in general I think a conservative player who buys a barrel every round, or maybe a couple every other round should be in a good position for the endgame. The Minor Axis powers are probably good to pick up a barrel or two when they can with a remainder, since they often have some pocket change left over and can use the fuel if they enter the fighter game later on. Iraq and Iran can probably use an extra barrel or two over time to try and get the most out of their oil exchange aid phase.
On the Allied side the Brits might be smart to make a bigger fuel buy early on, so they can get the most out of it, since they get thirsty pretty quickly and have that safe spot in Canada to place the fuel. For most of the rest though I think they probably have the same tension that Germany does, having to choose between getting out early with combat units or building up fuel reserves for the big drives later on. I'm enjoying it and dig the new fuel concept a lot.
I'm guessing for a solo challenge vs the AI probably an Edit of like 10 extra barrels to the Major enemy Capitals would be enough to keep them fairly competitive and still moving in later rounds. Clearly going against the computer still doesn't reflect a normal PvP situation, since a human player can get like half a dozen friendly fighters propping up Russia on the Eastern front and do various things to stall Japan in the south Pacific with naval blocking. But the machine still puts up a decent brawl when it has the juice to move its ships and fighters around, even if its a little chaotic.
Anyhow, coming up on J2 now, with a few hours to kill hehe...
Catch you in a bitElk vs HardAI Allies synthetic fuel Japan round 2.tsvg
Elk vs HardAI Allies synthetic fuel Japan round 4 combat.tsvg
Went a dozen rounds per usual, till I started getting sleepy. The AI Soviets and Brits fought pretty hard, holding out till the end while Axis did the globe trot. We steam rolled out the gate (not having to face down any sort of bonus this time) and snatched India with a quickness as a result. Pretty flush with oil for the most part, but still started running dry in the endgame, which was good... Probably kept Siberia kicking a bit longer than expected since kept having to choose between ships, air, or tanks once the stacks started guzzling. Didn't see the AI drop any synth barrels, so I think next time I'll try giving them a few extra via edit at the outset to see how they fair, then determine what kind of income boost they need for an even fight. This one was fun for a stomp though. I enjoy the new system. It makes fuel feel like a more interesting part of the game now that we have more ways to influence the flow. Nice work!
Only thing I can think of is that we might want to cap the total number of synth barrels per territory so players have to spread them out a bit across their various factory locations. Like maybe 2 per territory or something? That way the Minors don't stack too heavy, and the Majors have to put some of their synth fuel in contested locations if they want to continue expanding their reserves. Might also encourage more factory builds and an incentive for the more isolated Minors to try and take a second +5 spot, so that they can increase their total fuel capacity. With unlimited placement at a secure spot, it might be a little too easy for players to build up a large reserve and spam fighters. I think a cap at 2 or maybe 3 synth barrels per factory would keep things reasonable, while ensuring that the regular oil spots still remain critical and that the players still feels the thirst. Otherwise though I'm digging how it works.
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Made a quick edit just to see what it would look like if every starting factory had a synth barrel like Germany does in the latest iteration. I think it could actually work pretty well PvP even if the fuel for purchase was capped at like just one synth barrel per territory. Basically the destroy-able synth barrels could be interpreted as the reserve supply within a factory territory or the fuel logistics/distribution network (the tankers and pipelines or trains and planes, stuff that can be blown up), while the capture-able regular barrels would be like the actual oil fields and the stuff still in the ground... All goes to the same totals for gameplay movement purposes, but since you need a factory already in place to produce a synth barrel, there is that slight delay if a territory is trading hands, before the it can be fully exploited. Thematically, the synth barrels could represent fuel that's already been refined and in use above ground, while the regular barrels are like what you're digging and drilling out of the earth. Or at least that's one way it could be imagined.
all starting factories with synth fuel.tsvg
I think with a tight cap at 1, players would have a pretty strong incentive to capture each other's factory locations (to destroy the enemy supply, and develop your own added fuel), contesting the various VC's and +5 spots in the process. Under such conditions the Gold tiles would be really key to expanding the fuel reserve beyond the starting threshold, and to keep from running dry on the march down the road, since you'd need all the factories you can grab to place enough synth barrel units. If it was capped at 1 per territory (just like the factory unit), that would probably give room to keep the wheels turning into the endgame, but without risking a runaway oil bananza like might happen with unlimited placement. If 1 is too narrow, then could always go up to 2 or 3 per, but I think 1 might actually be enough.
Basically it would be like the green fuel barrel is associated with the factories, but has to built/replaced separately if destroyed. Maybe could also be subject to bombing? That might be cool. But even if it just worked like it does now I think it might be fun to use the unit to push the fight around the map a bit, building off the various contested factory locations. Anyhow, I don't think they need to be in place from the getgo, just wanted to see what the totals might look like in that edit above, but I like the idea that they have to be placed at existing factories and that they get destroyed when conquered. With a hard cap there would also be a reason to invest in factories even if you don't necessarily need them for combat unit placement, since fuel is so key to the game. But yeah so for so good. It gives the whole game a cool new spin, since now you can knock off the opponents fuel as well as building up your own. Makes the resource management feel much more gratifying. Nice work!
Also, here are couple edit saves I was going to use for the solo challenge. It adds 10 synth barrels to the starting factories for either side. Since the AI doesn't understand how fuel works or how to conserve it, this should allow the machine to build up a huge reserve and basically have infinite fuel or at least more than its likely to use. For a harder challenge will probably add an income boost on top of that, (maybe flat rate at like 10 or something to see how that looks first) but thought I'd start here now that we have the new fuel unit to play around with. I dig it
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Gotta say, I still think it would be nice to add Canada. In gameplay terms there's not a whole lot you can do with the Brits out of N. America right now, since its sort of just there as a way to hide British resources further afield and to have a safe spot to drop ships out of Halifax. But we could easily make Newfoundland or Labrador a British +5 spot, since those actually were under direct British control at the time. The Dominion of Newfoundland reverted to a crown colony in the 1930s and didn't become part of Canada proper again until after the War. So could use that to have a north american production spot for the Brits that would make sense historically, with plenty still left over to support an additional Canadian player.
Currently Britain has 58 production, but with only a small fraction of that coming from the actual British Isles.
England, Scotland, N. Ireland, Hebrides, Orkney, Shetland, Gibraltar, Labrador and Newfoundland could support a British economy at around 40-50 PUs and I don't think it would look out of place, given how much Italy and Balkans etc are worth. All you'd really have to do is increase Newfoundland to 5 PUs with some oil and steel, and raise England itself to like 20 or 30 and you're basically there already. Or you could just increase the value of a couple convoy lanes.
Having England at such a low production value kind of discourages Sea Lion when compared with going East vs Russia, and also makes the Allies rather less likely to consider liberating London as a top priority if it does wind up falling to Germany. Right now after the first round or two, there's really no reason to ever build combat units out of North America as the Brits, since you're better off just placing fighters or high value ships out of England once the US can cover the Celtic sea zone.
Meanwhile you'd have about 30 PUs left (sans Newfoundland and Labrador) to support a Canadian player. With a Canadian convoy lane added in you could have that up to 40 on par with Anzac, and another Ally to focus on actually moving ships and air across the North Atlantic (something that the Brits don't really need to do much of right now, with the exception of their freebie air-transports.) Could stick them in the final block with USA, China and Brazil which would give us a total of 24 playable nations which seems like a nice number. Would just need to re-tint some units and past over the union jack roundel with a maple leaf and we'd be good to go.
I know its not a top priority and a dead horse I'm beating, but I think would kind of complete the game, and help to justify all the other minor British factions we have like S. Africa and whatnot. Since you could say that one of the added historical themes of Iron War is the dissolution of the British Empire into all the various commonwealth and independent nations that it morphed into as a result of the Second World War.
I know it'd be a change, but in the last few iterations some big changes were made. The Airbases and Sub-pens for example introduced 135 TUV per round, probably about 1200 or more TUV over the course of an average game, which is pretty significant, but those seem to work reasonably well. I think adding another player would probably be less dramatic than that on balance, since it would be nerfing Britain slightly overall and the added income would be getting split over another player-nation's turn. If Canada followed US in the turn order, you wouldn't really have to worry about can-opening exploits beyond what the US can already do for the Allied team. If it needed an offset for Axis parity, we could maybe add a couple convoy lanes for the Axis team or something. Anyhow, just a thought. I think it could be fun for a redux.
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Started a new one vs the HardAI Axis this time. Gave them the extra starting fuel and a flat bonus of 20 for the Majors and 10 for the Minors. So far they've opened pretty well. Of course they still struggle with the Middle East, but that fight is very narrow and hard to prevent a route even in PvP if Russia and British-Colonies go for broke, but otherwise pretty solid showing from the computer. HardAI Germany seems to do better in their opener if they get a reload at combat to press as hard as possible, since they seem to recalculate and launch a few more battles if given a second look. They redirected their air power and ran a couple more attacks with their big infantry stacks. Hard AI Japan also pushing reasonably well vs the block from French Colonies. They just smoked the Russian far east armies that tried to dig in at Vladivostok and so seem poised to march.
Trying to keep pace as Allies with some extra synth drums bought here and there, hoping British-India and British-Colonies will be able feed a fledgling fighter force with all that added juice hehe. Also got Brazil awash in a pair of green barrels to see if those smoking cobras can make a more effective Atlantic crossing with little extra fuel per round hehe. Anyhow, still early days, only in the second round, but its shaping up to be a fun brawl so far.
Elk vs HardAI Axis synthetic fuel USA round 2.tsvg
Catch you in a few!
Ps. pretty fun so far.... AI Il Duce has been making a breakout and just sent Italian U-boats to wreak havoc in the Persian Gulf hehe. A surprisingly historical attack just occurred from AI Japan at Guadalcanal. Can't let this press towards New Zealand stand! Trying to keep things hot along the Burma road while they're preoccupied elsewhere with a walk-in over the Soviet Far East. Germans are creeping on the Russian VCs with their Balkan buddies. Stalin is chain-smoking right now waiting on FDR to deliver hehe
Elk vs HardAI Axis synthetic fuel USA round 4.tsvg
Took it a dozen rounds before locking down Europe. On the Pacific side Japan still has some teeth but the Chinese fighter wall prevailed and Allies are now driving on Coastal China. Overall it felt pretty good with the flat rate boost at those levels, 10 for the minors and 20 for the Majors per round. I think the way the production spread is set up it's a little easier to gang up on W. Germany than it is to go after Italy, so Il Duce lasted for a while before eventually getting snaked by Brazil. AI Germany seems to sink or swim depending on whether they can take Leningrad. They come undone pretty quickly if the Allies can knock off W. Germany. Surely in PvP the Axis will prioritize the German heartland above all else, which the AI doesn't do very effectively, but I wonder if it might make sense to redirect some of that coastal German income to Austria-Bohemia?
If like 20 PUs were shifted inland from W. Germany to Austria it might make the defense of the German capital a bit more engaging during the final rounds, since the swing in the west wouldn't be quite as dramatic when the Allies eventually roll it up. Also if the Germans could set up a production center in the middle of Europe that is safer from bombers and isn't vulnerable to amphibious assaults, it might help the Axis balance there post D-Day when the Allies are making their final press on Berlin.
Elk vs HardAI Axis synthetic fuel USA round 12.tsvg
Pps. Got another one going against the HardAI Allies, same deal as the last one with extra starting fuel, 20 flat boost to the Majors, (Russia Britain and USA) and 10 for the rest. Axis took the TKO early for VCs, but Allies definitely had some fight left so it wasn't decisive, and they've been playing pretty well into the mid-game. As Germany and Italy we went all gangbusters vs the Soviets, but in the far East the Russian bear is still bouncing around giving Japan headaches. Saw some good naval strikes from the machine and a bit of back and forth on all fronts. AI Allies still stacking up in Africa and India. Probably give it another half a dozen rounds and see how long they can keep it up with the boost.
Elk vs HardAI Allies synthetic fuel flat bonus Japan round 6.tsvg
Soviet AI is still kicking, Stalin has retreated to Fortress Irkutsk with British fighter cover. Japan is almost ready to crack India heading into the 12th round, but elsewhere the Allies have been somewhat resurgent. Battle for the Atlantic is down to some massive fighter walls with England still stacking, feels like it break either way there. Il Duce still getting harassed on the African front, but we finally knocked off the cape. The boost definitely seems to be keeping that Hard AI kicking into the endgame. Going to give it a few more rounds before I crash. Catch you next time!
Elk vs HardAI Allies synthetic fuel flat bonus Italy round 11.tsvg
Finally smoked the British Isles with Germany after a 2 round build up. We had to massively expand the synth stockpiles to get enough fighters on it, but eventually succeeded in forcing a resolution with Britain. London is ours at last, but the Americans evac'd like 20 something fighters in the final hours before the big battle, to set up a new air wall in Greenland.
Meanwhile Irkutsk has proven a tougher nut to crack. The Brits flew in a fighter wall from Western Canada, and propped up the last Russian stronghold just long enough for the Soviets to get some meat back on their bones. The Reds are surprisingly flush with cash despite being down to the fingernails in overall production capacity, so they've started building bombers and bouncing them around all over the place. And they're still harassing Japan in the Far East with the occasional surprise tank strike. India is toast per the long term U-GO plan, but ANZAC is still beefy and the Americans seem determined to keep playing cat and mouse trying to find a way into the South Pacific.
Italy still has their hands full though, and West Africa has remained an active front throughout. British Colonies and France still trying to kick in the back door, and looks like the USA is making a press in the South Atlantic now as well, after getting pushed out of the North Atlantic. They're stacking up ground forces Angola at present, giving the Italians pause after their recent triumph over South Africa. I feel like the HardAI deserves a minor victory of some sort for fighting this hard this long hehe.
Elk vs HardAI Allies synthetic fuel flat bonus Italy round 13.tsvg
Enjoying it at this level for the boost so far. I think the new fuel system works pretty well. You still feel the need to manage fuel consumption, but feels more engaging now that you can build for heightened demand over time. I dig it.
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Here's the final from that last game vs HardAI Allies with the boost... Finally eliminated the last Soviet holdout in Irkutsk with a nuclear strike! cause it's getting late hehe.
Elk vs HardAI Allies synthetic fuel flat bonus Japan round 15.tsvg
Good times! Overall I feel like the new fuel mechanic works quite well, and also reinforces the significance of steel. You can develop attack power with aircraft more effectively now, since there is a way to increase fuel production, but its still expensive to build up that kind of reserve. Even with air in place the AI does a pretty good job of countering, so you still really need to max the steel for ships and mobile ground to get enough defensive hitpoints in the water to keep enemy airstrikes at bay, or to move enough hitpoints on the ground to overcome enemy defensive air walls. I like it because if you try to just go with fighters and carriers and such, they become so fuel intensive to move that you need to balance unit production against fuel production or risk getting stalled out. Another fun aspect is that the synth barrels now allow the minor powers to feel more important during the endgame. The little guys have a stronger incentive to take territory up to the 20 PU point, since if they build some fuel every other round, and hit that economic threshold, they can buy fighters and fly defensive pips to the front to help their buddies. For the Major powers, the synth barrels seem pretty well tied in to the overall production balance, since there is a tension between dropping barrels and combat units, and sometimes its good to invest the 25 PUs in a factory just to have a spot to spend the extra 5 on a barrel next round hehe. Anyhow I found it enjoyable.
On the AI's side the only nation that really seemed to struggle in developing a functioning fuel reserve was ANZAC. Everyone else on AI team Allies stacked fuel and moved their units pretty effectively with the boost, but the Australians were stuck burning through all their oil every turn, so they never really had enough to position all their units. I think they might be a little dry relative to the type of units they need to buy, even with an extra 10 synthetics on the edit boost. But otherwise it felt pretty good. At 20 extra PUs per turn for the big 3 on the Allied side the Majors can fight on a lot longer after absorbing the initial rush from Axis, and the Minors slog pretty hard with an extra 10 PUs per turn since it allows them to keep the peripheral fronts active. I'll probably go again for another match tomorrow if I have time. I like the latest version a lot, nice work!
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ps. more thoughts on Australia and other production ideas... I think currently the Solomon Sea Zone and surrounding territories is undervalued. Given how significant this region was to the Japanese war effort, with the major naval base they built at Rabaul on New Britain, and the protracted campaigns they fought for control of the Solomon Islands and Guadalcanal, it should probably be highlighted for historical significance. I see a few things we could do to make the fighting around here more dynamic.
First I think New Britain (Rabaul) could support a +5 gold spot, and serve symbolically for bases at Solomon Islands and Guadalcanal (which could themselves be increased from 1 to 2 PUs without raising eyebrows, and allow Japan to help Italy vs British Colonies income by targeting Solomons/Guadalcanal). Perhaps with some resources attached so both teams have a stronger incentive to contest the Solomon Sea Zone and each of those islands. But I like Rabaul at +5 for a potential factory, because its controlled by Australia at the start, and a bit more isolated than New Guinea, but still activates the Solomon sea zone which is along a key transit lane. It could play off Truk, Hawaii and the Anzac starting factories, to create another lily pad for either side and a convoy lane near these Islands (perhaps in New Hebrides Sea Zone, Fiji sea zone, or New Zealand Sea Zone) would also help, and might bring the current convoy lane in South Pacific 10 Sea Zone into play. Basically I think the goal should be to encourage a naval conflict and amphibious landings between Japan and the US/Australia around the Coral Sea and adjacent zones, since the battles fought there were hugely significant turning points in the actual war.
All this stuff could build off the existing Japanese starting factory at Truk, so that the Japanese player feels more of a pull to the South East Pacific, and more pressure to try and cut the Allied supply line to New Zealand/Australia. Right now the conflict seems more static than it should be, and it's a little too easy for either side to just ignore or bypass the other, whereas a historical theme should probably be showcasing these locations a bit more. Right now the strongst natural pull for Japan is to go after India/Russia to help the Axis team, so anything that helps keep the war anchored in the South Pacific would give a more satisfyingly historical play pattern and any tweaks production wise would be warranted for that purpose mainly. Not to match the real world production levels of various islands (relative to other similar islands), but more for strategic/historical significanc to the War.
I feel that something similar could be done on the Europe side of the map for places like Benelux, Sicily and Greece, where a +5 gold space would encourage more fighting over historical hotspots. Benelux in particular would be ideal for a +5, because it would give the Western Allies somewhere to focus after France that isn't going just straight for the jugular on W. Germany.
I like how Liberating France for the French slows down the D-Day crescendo, but it also denies Britain/USA a way to build up on the continent other than just putting everything into an amphibious assault on W. Germany. Benelux would make a lot of sense since it starts neutral, and because the port of Antwerp was considered critical for liberating the rest of Europe from the early days of the war to the Battle of Scheldt in 1944 following the Normandy breakout. Having it at just 3 PUs makes the territory kind of an afterthought, but if it was +5 and a potential US or British factory location, I think it would make the whole D-Day game in W. Europe a lot more interesting. Right now the collapse of W. Europe when it occurs feels very rapid, without much opportunity for Market Garden or battle of the Bulge type scenarios. I think Austria-Bohemia at +5 would also help, and provide an endgame counterbalance. But one thing I like about having more spots to protect (and at least one space that can serve as a potential US factory) is that it kind of simulates the gamble that the Normandy invasion actually was. Like the game can't model things like espionage or deception, Garbo style intrigue with feints to Calais and whatnot, but with Benelux activated like that it would give the German player some pause about how to handle France. If they pull south to stack Normandy, then Allies might drop in France or Benelux, or stack one spot to hit the other the following round. So you'd have a kind of push pull on the build-up, but I think it'd more oriented on Allies clearly trying to put heat onto Western Europe before going directly at W. Germany via amphibious landing, which always feels off in A&A style games. The North Sea Zone is critically powerful on this map though, if Germany can't control it vs amphibious the Allies are well ahead, but I think having an intermediate space like Benelux to draw some attention off W. Germany might help with it. Having a production fallback to Austria would also make the final drive to Berlin (or battle for Italy if Allies go there first) a bit more dynamic.
An increased value on Sicily, could likewise benefit the battle vs Italy in the Med, allowing a more historical feel to the campaign to knock off Rome. Like where it develops in stages rather than all at once. In general I see +5 spots as adding to the strategic depth of the gamemap wherever they exist. I understand the argument of wanting to reserve special status of +5 locations and forcing players to develop logistics further afield, but the map is also very large and could definitely benefit from more ways to push the production fronts. That's why I suggest using those major historical battles/contests as a way to justify the higher value of some specific spots, even if they aren't necessarily always major industrial centers like Holland, still, the strategic value and the fact that major forces/invasions occurred there provides ample justification for minor variations in my view.
Any income balancing for parity by sides to accommodate production value changes for more +5 spots could be adjusted for with convoy lanes to the other team. Axis convoy lanes for example would be an easy way to offset any potential advantage that accrues to Allies, while Allied convoys do the same for any Axis advantage. A lot of the extra cash from any of those sources will likely go into fuel purchases during the endgame when the stacks get large. But on the whole I think the map really benefits most from +5s. They are the territories that make the game and allow for different kinds of attack patterns depending on the strategy.
The Benelux Low Countries would probably be the most fun if I had to pick just one. But I think the map could support another half dozen +5 gold spots. Just done up for historical flare.
Also here is another Synth Fuel edit for Solo play. It adds 20 barrels to the starting factories for either side. I'll run another test, but I think that should be more than enough so that the AI doesn't have any issues moving units well into the endgame, or at least for as long as they are still alive. I think its a good way to see how the new fuel thing works, even if only on the player's side. It can take some getting used to, but the new fuel unit definitely allows the player to scale up for larger forces over time... Anyhow I think these should work pretty well for learning the ropes against the machine, and you can add a flat rate bonus to the AI for a harder challenge.
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Got a fun one going vs HardAI Allies at the 20 fuel 20/10 flat boost. We had a legit Pearl strike from AI Yamamoto, but alas they got backed down by the American carrier. Lot of ships afloat in the Pacific early on. Meanwhile on the Europe side Axis are pushing on Russia pretty well. First looked like Stalingrad, but Finns on the March, are telling me they might be headed North! hehe Anyhow so far so good. Haven't seen the AI stalling much as they all have a comfortable reserve. Other than the sweep of Mideast sweep by Russia/British-Colonies they're still in the fight. Normandy might be a possibility now though, since AI Axis left W. Germany pretty light. Will see how it goes. Catch you next round
Axis 20 synth fuel per starting factory flat rate bonus Russia round 3.tsvg
Big round for the Americans... AI left themselves open to the air blitz on Tokyo and W. Germany, so had to try for it. Brazil came big too, with the liberation of France and a sneaky hop to Denmark to seize the strait. Japan knocked off the Chinese, but Zhukov is driving on Manchuria, and with the recent US smackdown on the home island it might be lights out for the Empire. Will see how well they manage afterwards with the fuel reserves they've built up out of their last stronghold in Canton. On the Europe side, Germany went after Stalingrad after all, and the Finns took Archangel with a stealth blitz. Normandy held out long enough for France to drop a factory though, so the second front is now open for business.
Axis 20 synth fuel per starting factory flat rate bonus Russia round 5.tsvg
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@Black_Elk I will have to study these savegames in detail at some point
I really wish that the AI could learn to value of and then purchase resource generating units like these barrels. There is no doubt that the AI would do better on maps that include special purchable units that do not function as combat units. Like units that are used for settings/triggers, resources etc.
@redrum is it possible for the AI purchase programming to, at some point in the future, also take a purchasable unit’s resource generation ability/stats (also non-PU) into consideration when purchasing? I guess many other AI “other resource” improvements are on the to-do list before something like this.
Until the time when the AI learns to handle non-PU resources better, would it be possible for the AI to have a “randomness” factor build into itself, a feature that would automatically come into play when the purchase options included one or more non-combat and at first glance (from AI point of view) worthless units?
If the AI players purchase options included special units, the AI could maybe allocate a % of available PUs (like 5%-10%) to use on these special units. And if these PUs are inadequate for a purchase, then the AI could be set to save up the PUs for later purchase.
Alternatively, the AI could be programmed to Purchase special units by just adding a “randomness” factor to the AIs purchases. Like if 20% of the available PUs was spendt randomly on ALL available units every time the purchase screen included special units. At some random point, special non-combat units would be purchased and this would probably benefit the AI player since the mapmaker has made the special units available.
@redrum, have you given something like this any thought?
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@Frostion Anything is possible
Buying resource and resource generating units would definitely fit into enhancing the AI to understand using other resources when purchasing as right now it just checks that it has enough non-PU resources.
I've thought about the "random" approach but it ends up usually being worse as there are a lot of different types of non-supported units (resource related ones are just 1 type) and many of them should only be bought in certain situations. In this example, it would be pretty bad for say the USA AI to buy synthetic fuel turn 1 or the minors that have tons of fuel to be using their very limited PUs to buy synthetic fuel.
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I still think it would be fun if there were a few different 'personalities' for the HardAI, named after different generals or whatever. Like maybe one guy has randomized purchasing for combat units, another has something similar for infrastructure type stuff, one makes more aggressive attacks prioritizing enemy TUV destroyed, one is ultra conservative prioritizing their own TUV on defense. Basically a dozen "spin off" versions of the same reasonably competant base HardAI, but just with one variable or two adjusted so they play differently. I think that would probably be more fun overall for players to have on hand than one AI that's meant to handle everything at the highest strategic level.
Then the same AI game might play out very differently depending on which personality is assigned to the HardAI for a particular nation. I think some kind of compromise like that which uses a small degree of randomness might be more engaging in the near term for surprise outcomes, or humanlike digressions from the usual best practices, just to keep things interesting. By running a few different experimental AI drivers like that we might find some combos that outperform others, or at least mix up the bag a bit. I remember some older games like RiskII that had fairly weak baseline AIs, but which still managed to create a feel of dynamism and interest for the machine that way.
If the behavior differences started out with something easier to control for, like purchasing preferences or attack thresholds, maybe it could be a thing that works for both Hard and Fast AI? Maybe it could eventually be randomized on a round by round basis, where the AI shifts back and forth over the course of the game, instead of just the initial assignment, but meantime it would at least give a place to start.
In the same way that playing against a newb can sometimes be quite entertaining because they are more likely to go off script and force uncommon situations. Maybe something like that works for the AI too? I mean we don't have to set the bar all that high, since it's mainly for getting the rocks off while learning or in the downtime between PvP games. But it might also be useful from a game design standpoint, like a map being built around a certain standard behavior for a certain nation.
Kind of off topic, but I still think the sweetest thing we could get going would be a way to flag a territory as higher priority based on some control maybe with an invisible marker. That way could be used for VCs or Capitals, high resources or Canals and such. Just like a generic tag that makes a territory higher up on the target to kill or defend to the death type tiles.
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interesting idea actually but only if you found more people to work on the AI and really the Hard AI being the hardest AI is all I need ::)
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@Black_Elk @redrum @Captain-Crunch
Maybe a quick and easy easy way to support maps with special units / strange purchases is a "chaotic/random AI" that worked like Hard AI, except that 50% to all purchases were random, and an xml setting that made the AI use this type of AI? -
Yeah I mean that sounds pretty cool! I'm sure I'd have fun playing against it. The main point I'd drive home is that we are probably arriving at a point now where a single type of AI is insufficient for the number/variety of maps we have. The HardAI is pretty good at doing what is was designed for, namely general principles for the WWII maps that came out prior to V3, and it does a fairly competent job playing other similar maps. But I think we've probably hit a wall here, where it's easier to have an AI gang rather than one hard dude running the whole block. I think randomizing the behavior based on different variables would be really interesting, using different AIs with cool names.
From a design standpoint, if we had a dozen different AI personalities, maybe people could build maps that play to certain strengths and weaknesses of that particular AI. Like just imagining extremes, maybe you have one AI who buys impulsively and spends half the pot on different units every time... well, at the other end of the spectrum you might have the dude who picks one or two favorite unit types and magnifies those buys every round. Or similarly maybe you have an AI who loves building ships and running the sea, another who's all for bombers, and just give them names or descriptions that fit.
Those things are just on the purchasing side, but I can imagine a Dirty Dozen different AI's where each are basically a spin-off of the main HardAI. Then it would be a lot easier to design maps based on these different AIs instead of trying to have a single AI that can cover all situations across all maps. Otherwise you have that tension that Redrum was describing where a certain behavior makes a lot of sense for one map, or for one nation on a given map, but would nerf the AI in another possibly significant situation. If we had different AIs then we could play around with it a bit, under less pressure for ultimate perfection, while still operating within the same basic framework. At least that way we could experiment with some different ideas, without having to worry about unintentionally hosing the regular HardAI in the process of trying to refine it. For starters I would ditch the Easy AI altogether. It's name is deceptive anyway, since it should probably be called "old AI" at this point hehe. Or if its good to keep Easy AI for some kind of under-the-hood/future re-development reason, just change the name to something less enticing for the solo newb and stick it way at the bottom. Fast AI is good, because it's name tells you what it's really about.
After that maybe just pick like half a dozen clever names and see if we can find a variable to tweak that would make their gameplay a little bit unique and let them loose on the solo playerbase to see whether it sticks...
Perhaps you have one called "Ivan" who does what you'd want AI Russia to do, like just stack for defense and try to hold down a contiguous empire with very conservative purchases.
Maybe "Tommy" is another AI personalty, except his deal is more about flying aid to his buddies, saving up to drop big fleets, and then establishing a beachhead near the front with transports.
Then you got "Fritz" who likes to buy mobile ground units and hurl them headlong at the nearest enemy, sometimes makes desperate attacks when the odds are narrow, because he needs to maintain momentum and seize the initiative.
Somewhere in there maybe you have an AI that focuses on developing production infrastructure or a wide variety of unit types. Probably analogous to what we'd want from the USA in a standard WWII type game. Once the basic template is established and people see how different AI types might fit together to make a more interesting game, then you could add to the list different behaviors that might be fun. I honestly have no idea, but it seems like that might be somewhat simpler than going at it Highlander style, where there can be only one hehe.
In the Iron War map, I can imagine at least half a dozen different AI behaviors that might be advantageous to have kicking around, depending on which Nation is up in the rotation. In most TripleA games, there are at least a couple basic types of player nations, where a human is expected to do different things based on who they play, so probably the AI should mirror that. In that vein I'd say start with AA50 as a model. We do Six different AI's with cool names and behavior themed on the 6 player nations on that map. Use them as the experimental guinea pigs, to see if we can get them to model a more human like approach on that map (since its kind of like legacy edition A&A at this point.) If successful we adapt them or add new ones to handle other different maps.
At least I think it could be a fun experiment to run. Maybe a little more entertaining for our AI guru, having something to mess around with that isn't quite as monolithic as the standard HardAI?
ps. Still going vs the HardAI Axis with the boost. We took the TKO in 43, but Axis are still showing teeth and its pretty fun to try and manage the Allied fuel reserve while preparing for the final strikes. AI Japan has done a pretty reasonable job of reorienting onto the mainland and not letting their main fleets get cracked. Allies are trading W. Germany on income for the edge, but the Germans still have their main fleet and an expanding tank force holding onto Berlin. Balkans just made a sneaky Blitz on Moscow after AI Germany canopened the way. Guess they made Stalin pay for his overconfidence hehe. Looks like they got a few rounds left. Probably will play on just to see how long Japan can play off the fuel reserve they built up. Catch you next round!
Axis 20 synth fuel per starting factory flat rate bonus Russia round 8.tsvgAI Axis made a pretty glorious final counter offensive to push back the Allied occupation of W. Germany. Balkans then blitzed to punish Paris hehe. They took a lot of TUV down, but the big German ground stack also went by the wayside, so basically a done deal in Western Europe. On the Pacific side Allies are steady rolling up Japan after a big build up over several rounds... Italy is stacked heavy in Egypt and Rome, but also getting boxed in now. Probably time to throw in the towel but I'll give it to the AI for making a clean last stand! hehe
Axis 20 synth fuel per starting factory flat rate bonus Russia round 11.tsvg
I think they could have gone on longer if the AI Japanese rebuilt their Tokyo factory, but they seemed to expend all their energy around China instead. Curious if the AI values territory income or just production value? Both AI Germany and Japan seem to underplay their highest value territories on defense/recovery, compared with the way they will target other lower value enemy territories in the area. Other than that I suppose the main thing that would probably make the AI more competitive is to prioritize VC control at the end of the round, for whatever threshold the Win is set. Like in this case, the AI just going all gangbusters trying to hold as many VCs as they can if they have the chance at 20. Right now the AI is still playing more total domination style ala Classic with solid general principles on the TUV trade, but not really set up for the VC aspect, even though that is how victory is determined for many games these days. Probably something like that would be at the head of the wishlist for me, making VC control supersede other considerations when Victory is reach. But anyhow, I like how the AI plays on this map when they have the synth fuel and a flat boost, fun stuff!
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Here is a fun one where the AI Allies have been keeping us on our toes... Axis went with the slow push to expand carving up the conquests between the various minors along the way, but got stalled up in the Urals and the Russians had us fighting tooth and nail to take out Siberia. AI Soviets meanwhile have been launching some effective counter attacks using their bomber stack, with few furious bombing runs to sweep Japanese production on the mainland. Yakutsk is still kicking and British fighter support has kept the far east fairly active. US pacific fleet just did an end around towards Tokyo when the Japanese fleet finally launch from Truk , and AI Stalin has used the opportunity to re-established a final stronghold in Vladivostock! The Americans are stacking fighters to the ceiling! Germans just bought their first nuke to deal with the situation... hehe good times.
Elk vs Allies 20 synth fuel per starting factory flat bonus Japan round 12.tsvg
AI Australia felt better after the increase on starting fuel, they've been keeping Japan on edge bouncing defending fighters around. South Africa was knocked off and British-India is near collapse, but the rest of the gang is still up to no good in West Africa. Think it could go another half dozen rounds
A pretty Epic battle vs AI Britain for control of Mexico City! hehe been taking this one full invasion USA, but the North American air fortress is pretty impressive. Japan didn't have enough strength at the ready after the long campaigns vs India and Russia to turn around and directly take on Australia or USA. So instead they blew past Hawaii and the West Coast and headed to Panama. Axis are sweeping across the South America now, with German tanks leading the way and a massive Italian army finally ready follow along for the Atlantic crossing. Even with tactical nuke strikes by both Germany and Japan over several rounds, the British and Americans are determined to bloody us still. US AI has fifty some odd fighters defending the homeland. Good times! This one might go into the 1960s lol
Elk vs Allies 20 synth fuel per starting factory flat bonus Germany round 20.tsvg
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Dusted this one off for the first time in forever, just a quick run vs HardAI using the latest build. I think its still my fav TripleA map for PVE solo vs computer type thing.
The large map and relatively large number of factions makes it ideal for that style of play, since it games out almost more like a Total War campaign than something you get from a typical A&A game. The basics are still there though, and not complicated with the rules, so the computer to plays fair pretty well as a punching bag over the long sprawl.
Any plans to update this one in future?
I think it would be fun see a TripleA map or mod like this one but specifically with AI's behavior in mind for the challenge set up. Current Iron War runs well I think when everyone just buys 1 barrel of fuel pretty much every round, though hard AI doesn't like to purchase barrels. It'd be cool if the AI just got like 5 extra green barrels out the gate so they'd have a reserve building from round 1? Not sure if it even needs income boost if computer just had more fuel.
What I like about the map most is the naval game and the production spread with the gold spots, how they anchor the action across the various fronts. Main thought from last play through was that it would be fun to have more and maybe have like all the minors with capital worth 20, to bring heat to the game. I think it would balance pretty well by sides since most spots are contested, or rather that whichever side was the punching bag I think would still be fun to rally against at level hehe. Drum up a boost for the little guys haha
Only other thing I'd say is maybe using newer rules for carrier/fighter placement, since it was tricky to recall it was revised style here (fighters move to from land to sea). But otherwise like riding a bike pretty much
Anyhow, hope all have been well! catch ya next round
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whoops wrong thread. But I did game this one again all night hehe
ps. last save as Axis going vanilla, fun speed press vs AI 2020-8-25-Iron-War G5.tsvg
With hard AI the longer the game goes on the more their fuel disadvantage grows, and also because of fuel consuming unit spawns, they burn through it quickly and burn out usually in round 4. For the next one I edited in 5 green barrels for each of the Allies and put it at their most secure factory territory. Going to see how that plays under this set up. Cause I think the income/steel level is actually pretty good at this scale for a starter level.
2020-8-26-Iron-War 5 fuel.tsvg
Or it would be cool if we could give the flat rate bonus to fuel rather than PU. Then the challenge rate could give suggested settings in the game notes for solo vs HardAI that could be done simply from launch.
Normal/Easy: No Income bonus +5 Fuel
Moderate: Income +110% bonus +10 Fuel
Hard: Income +115% bonus +15 Fuel
Very Hard: Income +125% bonus +20 Fuelor something along those lines, with like suggested playscale. That'd be cool
Going to try
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ps. Here's another on G5. You can see how much better HardAI does by the same point, just with the a couple extra green barrels at the outset.
Even if it doesn't prevent the Axis round 3 crush on Leningrad, HardAI Allies are definitely in a much stronger position coming out of the 4th round. With the barrel boost they are running a pretty solid fuel surplus by then, so that they don't break down in the middle of their combat move/non com move. Better able to get the US/UK fighters and air transports out into position, to maneuver their transports and warships and push a little harder with their tanks and mech and such.
In this one they pressed pretty well in North Africa and up into central Africa with the tanks. Leningrad and India pockets still collapsed round 3 owing to mass amphib rush, but Allies are much stronger at the middle at around the same point. Soviets still pretty beefy at Stalingrad and Siberia for example, and active in far East. USA doing creeper moves with their transports to harass Japan in the Pac. Allied fleets also with a stronger push vs the Med and buildup in North Atlantic etc.
2020-8-26-Iron-War Fuel +5 G5.tsvg
Even without any boost to income, just having that extra fuel makes the AI a lot more challenging. With the leg up at +5 green barrels from the outset they are still in the black in round 5, with enough fuel to move effectively. Whereas in the one with no extra fuel they are dry by round 4 for sure, if not sooner, just from moving aircraft and such around. The only Allied nations still routinely running dry at +5 green barrels are Britain and Anzac. I think +10 green Barrels would probably make it such that they don't burn out during normal play or at least until the game has ground past the point of victory anyway. Axis side might need something closer to +10 to get out of the red, since they have more starting units that consume fuel. I'll try that next I think.
Anyhow, pretty fun I think. If AI could just get a quick bonus to flat fuel per round would be cool.
Here's another showing +10 Green barrels for Allies at the start.
2020-8-26-Iron-War Fuel +10 G5.tsvg
Here you can see USA really get it out there, all the way to Japanese home waters! hehe Still with the Axis crush in round 3, but Allies are well in the black for fuel going into the 5th round. So I think that +10 is prob the right fuel amount for the AI to hum like it wants to. Anzac and UK didn't get tripped up as hard.
The main pivot points on the map feel like they're at Leningrad and Iran for control of Europe. If Allies hold Leningrad and take Iran they're pretty much set, and the inverse too, if Axis take Lengingrad and hold Iran they're pretty much set. The other stuff peripheral stuff along those drives is pretty open to choice, with different routes to the middle, but that seems the best B line. Since as long as all the Axis together can prop up Iran, then when G cracks Leningrad its a nice breaks out to the 20 VC finale. Pretty fun I think, even without the income bonus, once the AI is unleashed to do its thing with the mobile units. I still enjoy this one.
pps. same deal just switching sides. AI Axis did pretty well with the fuel at +10. They were cruising right up until a rough break in the Leningrad battle where Russia backed them down. Good grind at the center though, Soviets got into Persia by the skin of their teeth but couldn't crack Iraq after Italy rushed in air defense. The Dutch and French Colonies pile up held the line down south, but Japan smashed pretty hard against Russia and China putting the heat in the backfield. Not a bad showing just with the added fuel
2020-8-26-Iron-War Axis Fuel +10 USSR4.tsvg -
Main thing I would say having played quite a bit of the map, is that I think the play-balance would be a lot more interesting if Denmark was under German control from the start. This would give more strategic depth to the German opener in PVP, since more options open up for possible first turn German moves/Purchases when the strait isn't closed off. And of course it would make for a stronger Hard AI Germany, since then AI doesn't goof their naval defense so hard by going north, instead of staying in place like the player should do, they could retreat to back behind Kattegat. I think removing 1 German transport as an offset would work for PvP balance. I ran a few test games to see what Hard AI does, and it makes some pretty reliable moves. Here's one showing what they did.
Its pretty solid opener from the AI to hit the Soviet fleet and bolster Finland, while sending just the a lone destroyer to take the Russian convoy lane, protecting the rest up in a safe spot. I think many in PvP would do something similar which gives a fresh dynamic, a bit less centered on Ukraine fight. Here it is after Axis block on Russia's first turn.
2020-8-26-Iron-War Axis Fuel +10 denmark to Germany.tsvg
Anyhow, by allowing the German fleet to converge somewhere on G1 it also makes the choice for how to deal with Russia a bit more complex in the edge cases since it presents a couple trade off battles too. Instead of a do or die all-in to Ukraine fight, there'd be another option to hit North, or prop up Finland like this on defense, or maybe even to go west vs France or UK direct in force. Purchasing would be a little more dynamic too since there'd be a way to save the fleet without having to spend everything on naval units, like purchasing a carrier or a gang of pt boats and the like just to keep the starting ships from getting blow out the water right away.
Denmark under German control from G1 would also fit the start date for 1940 since the invasion of Denmark occurred April 9th 1940. It was the shortest campaign of the war and concluded in 6 hours.
The campaign for Norway wasn't completed until they captured Narvik in June. So to me makes sense for a timeline that has the game opening basically April 9th of 1940 through some point in mid-June 1940 corresponding to the first turn, right on the even of the invasion of Norway and France basically,
Anyhow that's my idea for balance on the Axis side.
Allies I think are pretty solidI played out the game with Denmark under German control to round 4 just for comparison. You can see how much stronger the Germans press under these conditions over vanilla.
2020-8-26-Iron-War Axis Fuel +10 denmark to Germany USSR4.tsvg
They were able to match the round 3 timing, and punish my Soviets for opting to go all break neck towards the south. Just as the Russians crushed Iran, the Germans stomped into Leningrad for the follow up.
Not a bad showing from the computer, since it forces a similar style of play to PvP, where Allies really have to choose between holding the north or cracking the south. Even with a minor setback in Stalingrad they're rolling heavy and primed to bring the pain to Stalin. Finns sweeping Archangel, Balkans charging the middle, and Moscow pocket pretty well collapsing in the 4th round.
With Denmark under German control from the outset, AI Axis actually put those starting transports to pretty good use, first to secure Finland and then to press on Russian VCs. Its much more challenging as Allies. So I think that's prob the simplest change to make the map more viable for solo play.
My top suggestion for now anyway. I think if the concern is G1 transport capacity for Sea Lion it would be better to just remove a German transport but give them control of Kattegat from the start so they can maneuver their warships to converge. Basically just giving G a way to keep the fleet from being destroyed that doesn't require an all in naval investment. After G1 they play it pretty smooth, it's just the strait I think that causes them headaches.
In PVP having the strait closed sort of pushes Germany into a more one dimensional purchase option, since you really need to keep the fleet alive to G2 in order to swing troops east after the initial battle of France. So I think it'd work better there too, I'd just nix the 3rd transport as an offset and it'd be pretty clean.
I think the green barrel Synth fuel is a good way to balance the map for computer opponent, since it is destroyed on capture unlike the main Fuel resource. 5-10 barrels at a capital or safer VC space and the computer does pretty well for itself, whereas when its gets the %bonus to income and steel as well it becomes OP pretty fast. It'd be cool to have those two split for the resource modification option at launch. Flat rate Resource Modifier for Fuel at launch would be ideal. To get up to the amounts of fuel needed for a solid AI (or the equivalent to 5-10 green barrels for each AI player) using the percentage boost you gotta go up to like 115%-120% for the total, but that's a pretty massive bonus for steel and PUs.
Here's one at +120% for comparison. In that one my Italians hosed themselves with a botched sub move allowing Allies to keep Egypt. G stalled out after Leningrad and was defeated at Stalingrad. Basically down to Japan keeping Axis afloat hehe. Obviously way more hardware on the board at 120%, and even with the round 3 timing to crack Leningrad/India Allies are going pretty hardcore by round 5 lol. Interestingly even with an extra 25% on top of their standard fuel, Britain and Anzac are almost dry as a bone. So I think a boost to fuel separately is better, even if going for a more difficult challenge scale more like this one.
2020-8-27-Iron-War Bonus 120 percent Allies.tsvgHad a good standoff going vs Axis at 120%. They're staring down Moscow pretty hard. My Russians blew into Mid East, but sent all the Eastern armies to prop up Leningrad, worked fairly well. Japan just smoked the Aussie fleet, but then USA clapped back to smoke theirs. British-India is finally in Thailand. Here it is in the 6th Soviets just for kicks
2020-8-26-Iron-War Bonus 120 percent Axis USSR6.tsvgWent 12 rounds into the nuke era, felt pretty on target for the WW2 gameplay
2020-8-26-Iron-War Bonus 120 percent Axis USSR12.tsvg -
Trying another vs Axis at 125% this time, I did the reload at combat-move trick to get Germany to take Denmark on G1. Hehe good to see em finally kick into high gear there. Going to give this one a run tonight later tonight lol.
2020-8-29-Iron-War AI Axis +125.tsvg2020-8-29-Iron-War AI Axis +125 USSR1.tsvg
I will say after playing a couple times as Allies again, I think it would be cool if Russia had a fall back space on the line between Moscow and Siberia.
Right now its really tough to cover such a broad front once the forward factories are taken, which can happen pretty quickly. I'd say raising Kuybyshev to +5 with a starting factory would do the trick. That way when the Soviets have to withdraw they have a pivot point in the interior, still 1 move off from Siberia but closer to contested high value spots for the fall back.
"During World War II, Kuybyshev was chosen to be the alternative capital of the Soviet Union should Moscow fall to the invading Germans, until the summer of 1943, when everything was moved back to Moscow. In October 1941, the Communist Party and governmental organisations, diplomatic missions of foreign countries, leading cultural establishments and their staff were evacuated to the city. A dugout for Joseph Stalin known as "Stalin's Bunker" was constructed but never used."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SamaraThat would be cool to showcase with another strong spot in the middle at Kuybyshev.
I think pretty much every faction could handle an influx of a couple PUs in starting production spread around, either to their starting territories or nearby neutral/enemy spots they can snag. Its fun when there are more +5s to target for production expansion, especially as the game goes on. Also becomes a fun part of the game trying to deny those spots to the enemy, so ya get the push and pull thing going on.
To make the Pacific more fun I would punch up the value of the following spots at +5 gold...
Iwo Jima, Saipan, Wake, Midway
That's 2 for Japan, 2 for USA, that way there is more back and forth in the central pacific, or a place to go when Hawaii/Truk are deadlocked. The value increase would be a nod to the strategic and historical significance, but in practical gameplay terms it gives a way for USA and Japan to springboard onto each other with more gusto. The names are already familiar from the major battles and histories of the Pacific war, so I don't think it'd raise any eyebrows. It'd just make the central Pacific battle more intense with both sides given an added stake there, to really set up the confrontation over those islands between USA/Japan.
On the European side think each of these territories could be worth 5, and it wouldn't upset the balance.
Algeria, Armenia, Benelux, Croatia, Greece, Kuybyshev, Scotland , Sicily, Tangier
Each would be like an additional pivot point for the campaigns in the region, giving both sides a way to branch further, or later when lines shift after you enter the endgame (and new factories start being built/taken) more choke points in the production game.
Anyone else playing this map think those would work? I like the idea of giving a few more neutral spots at a higher value so that the smaller factions have more to gun for. I think the little guys could each use a springboard or two and a way to up their income a bit faster.
The Med/Mid East have some the best options I think, because most factions can reach that zone. But the Pacific works a little different owing to KNIL's existence (no springboard from the money islands in the same way as other WW2 games) so I'd boost the central pacific instead to give it a little more dynamism.
ps. took the tko in the 3rd round, with the middle east somalia snag, but otherwise AI Axis are stacking pretty well. Japan whiffed at French Indo, but but just put a dent in Darwin and have mopped up China. India was the star of the show so far putting Iraq/Iran in the Allied column, but G is doing pretty well even without a fleet. Going for the Normandy stackfest, and an Aussie end around on East Africa hehe.
2020-8-29-Iron-War AI Axis +125 USSR5.tsvgBig Axis press into Stalingrad! Nice work hard AI Germany hehe. Got me on the sleep deprivation sting! lol
2020-8-29-Iron-War AI Axis +125 USSR7.tsvgNext run switching sides
2020-8-30-Iron-War AI Allies +125 G1.tsvgG3 Sea Lion set up
2020-8-30-Iron-War AI Allies +125 G3.tsvgSoviets have been pretty formidable in the aftermath hehe
2020-8-30-Iron-War AI Allies +125 J4.tsvgTook it to the 11th round just to see how long AI Russia could maintain hehe. G was pretty well spent on taking London while Japan did their globe trot thing, so Soviets were pretty impressive, and USA and even a nerfed out Britain have a shit ton of fighters flying about lol.
2020-8-30-Iron-War AI Allies +125 G11.tsvg
I think fuel movement breaks down after a certain threshold when the game goes on for a while, certainly by the end of a dozen rounds. Eventually to the point where the even with the 125% boost the HardAI just can't conserve enough surplus fuel to move effectively after a certain number of rounds. Unfortunately they don't expand fuel through purchasing, which seems strange cause I'd think the AI might end up with 5 left in the remainder to burn at least some of the time, but they always find a way to buy a hitpoint instead, which I guess makes a certain sense too. But anywhow, the boost does extend the duration before they hit that cliff and run real dry, and so is pretty fun. I still like the idea of extra green barrels scattered about to give more interest, esp for SP play. Adding green barrels to contested spots knowing that whoever snakes them first will have an impact on the fuel game.
Like maybe it would be cool to have green barrels in all those contested island spots in the central Pacific, or around the Med. I don't know like a couple dozen green barrels to each side used to punch up play pattern or maybe push it in a few exciting directions?
Destroying the enemy barrels would be a gameplay driver, and could be seen as 'disrupting supply lines' kind of part and parcel of the broader naval warfare already going on with convoy lanes, landing pad islands, and amphib game generally. So like say if New Zealand and Guadalcanal had Green barrels that Japan could destroy if they went after em, that could be interpreted as Japan disrupted enemy US/ANZAC shipping/supplies depleting the overall reserves by destroying those starting green barrels.
I'd drop em in a few dozen spots that make sense for the timeline. It could work for any historical battle spots really, esp islands like Sicily Sardinia Crete and such. Where it not only gives the Allies an added incentive to hit those spots, but more importantly gives Axis a reason to defend them and vice versa for contested barrel spots under starting allied control. So yeah that's another idea. I think the game just needs a little more fuel flow to ensure that more of the cool steel ground and naval can still be can be put to good use in the midgame, and the green barrel could do double duty in that way.
I clearly like the green barrel unit a lot haha I think its interesting because it can be killed! I like that concept of blast-able barrel reasource that can be smoked, for the same reason I like the destroy-able factory concept. Cause that all still feels pretty novel compared to what we usually get in A&A, where the factory unit is fixed in place once bought and can be captured. I like the capture resources concept to, but I think its cool how this map now blends those two ideas with capturable oil fields fuel alongside purchase-able/destroy-able fuel, which I see as more as synthetic fuel for Axis, or just regular old oil stockpiles/reserves if its the Allies.
Invasion USA just for kicks. Took a hot minute to break into the Americas, to J20 before passing out hehe
2020-8-30-Iron-War AI Allies +125 J20.tsvgHere's another idea for how the green fuel thing might work. In this one I gave each of the main factions 2 extra green barrels, and the smaller factions 1 extra green barrel each in a contestable spot. Just as a way for a bit more pull, especially between USA/Japan but really for everyone across the board. Tried to go for a space that they'd then have an extra incentive to hold, or to and try to take. I daisy chained em along the North and South Pacific with a few extra barrels from the various factions to make those sea zones a little more key to naval battle, so there's some more tension for Japan to break off a transport here and there etc, or on the flipside for the US and Anzac to have more objectives to defend around the various island chains. I think it could work even with a few more barrels, but this seemed cool for modest start. Basically everyone gets an extra barrel somewhere that can be destroyed, and then the big guys get another in a target spot since they have the larger starting forces. Anyhow, just an idea of how it might look. Basically just trying to add some targets to the peripheral kind of zones to spice it up, but also adding in a little more juice to fuel for the long game. I think it could be cool
2020-9-2-Iron-War added synth.tsvgPretty fun, I played out 5 rounds. This one is notable for AI Japan's press vs Alaska, with some daring cutty transport actions up there in northmost sea zones! Also for AI Italy rocking some dastardly can-openers on the Russian midsection to nix down Soviet production... Good stuff! haha
2020-9-2-Iron-War added synth Axis +125 USA5.tsvgHere's one at +120 with 20 green barrels to the AI (basically aiming to eliminate their fuel movement probs) so far so good. Axis transport capacity after the first round makes it pretty hard for AI Allies to avoid a coordinated crush in a single direction. For Germany its more all in to against France and Ukraine G1, stack forward vs Karelia G2 with mass transport for the G3 take. For Japan the best is all in to Philippines and French Indo on J1, Sumatra J2, then India J3 for J3 take or Italy to mop up if that fails. The timing is about a round faster owing to the fact the AI doesn't block, but even against the crush when they have sufficient fuel and a boost they still throw down a lot of pickets and still manage to cause a ruckus hehe.
Iron-War +20 synth +120 income AI Allies J3.tsvgAI Anzac with the sneaky snipe from Truk! Who knew they had slipped in down there on the sly!? First time I've seen em snake the home island haha. Nice work HardAI, with the gotcha gotcha play lol
Iron-War added synth AI Allies +125 J4.tsvg -
I guess to summarize, I think this map works really well for a style of gameplay that is closer to a 4X solo or 4X multi type thing than the more typical 1v1 A&A game. The map scale, the sheer number of factions, and the new resource concepts and such all lend themselves pretty well to that sort of thing I think. All it really needs for that is some recommended or default challenge settings in the game notes, so the new player has something to shoot for. The play balance is necessarily somewhat different PVE vs PVP, but I think it works.
Right now these are top 5 things I would suggesting having another look at.
- Transport Capacity
The whole game hinges really hinges on transports and transport capacity. It is the single most significant thing delineating the play pattern on this map after the factory unit/production spread. The difference between transporting 3 hitpoints vs 2 hitspoints is hugely significant. As it is now, you can either transport 3 units (if only inf, art, aagun), or just 2 units (if you bring along a mech or tank unit). This has the effect of making tank type units much less attractive as a purchase option, esp since they already compete with transports directly for the steel requirement cost. I would either cap the transport at 2 units total, or else allow the transport to carry 2 inf + 1 tank for parity. Mass transport actions are pretty OP at the moment, so my first instinct would be to reduce the capacity to 2 units total, but then the cost of the transport unit is almost prohibitive and there may not be enough hitpoints moving around to actually threaten amphib actions. A reduction in cost to just 1 steel per transport might work for that. Otherwise though I think it may be simpler to just raise the capacity of the transport to allow for 3 inf, or 2 inf + 1 tank type.
- Production Capacity
The factory unit in this game is my favorite unit, I like its relatively low cost and the fact that is destroyed on capture. But it is very vulnerable to bomber actions, since it is possible to nerf factions entirely out of play by eliminating their ability to place units the following turn via SBR. The smaller factions and factions limited by just 1 starting factory in a key spot like UK are particularly vulnerable. I would suggest allowing Inf units to be produced by the Victory City rather than the factory unit. Basically factory produces heavy equipment and the VC produces inf. This would have a number of benefits I think for the playpattern and is pretty simple to get your head around. It preserves the idea of high value industrial spots that are viable for housing a factory and building tanks and ships, but also allows a way to remain in the game when factories are dropping left and right through bomber actions or smash and grab production kills.
- Mech
I think the Mech unit should cost more. Its the most powerful mobile ground unit in the game and pretty overpowered at a cost of 12. If keeping the costs of the other ground units the same, I would at least suggest a cost of 14 PU, so that it is more expensive than SP Artillery at 12 and Tank Destroyer at 13. But honestly Mech is a way more effective unit than the Light Tank, and a better buy in most cases than even the Medium Tank. Its cheaper than the tanks in PUs and considerably cheaper in Steel, but allows you to drag a second hitpoint into the fight, which is huge! If anything, I think the mech should cost 2 steel and the light tank only 1 steel, just based on how potent the ability to shift infantry can be. That's the main one I'd say, the Mech balance/cost since its the principal unit that shapes the big-push drives overland.
- Unit Spawns
I do like the sub pens and air bases, and the basic concept of unit spawns per turn, though its pretty powerful over time and kind of unbalancing. I think perhaps it might be more interesting if they were nation specific rather than by side, or perhaps if each nation had a unique/thematic unit spawn so each felt a little different? The air transport is a pretty niche unit. They are interesting, and fun to try and use when they're around, but rather than spawning them continuously from airbases as a way to encourage their use, it might be just as well to simply add a handful of air transports as starting units in out of the way locations. Or maybe instead you might have a spawn concept for each of the "big 6" player nations Germany, Russia, Italy, UK, Japan, USA that is unique. Perhaps Germany=Subs, Russia=Tanks, Italy= PT Boats, UK=fighters, Japan=Destroyers, USA=Transports or something of that sort? I don't know just a thought, but it definitely gets pretty wild over time as those units stack up. The air transports have a fairly high fuel cost so moving them around can be kinda cost prohibitive as the game goes on. Another idea that I liked, but which may not be feasible, is unit spawns as a randomizing element, or having something like airbases or sub pens, but which produce a totally random off the roster unit each turn and then give one of those to each faction so that there is always something unique going on there for each game. I think it might benefit from something like that, especially for the smaller factions to be more relevant, where its like sometimes they maybe get a tank or aircraft or ship out of it and that gives them a different edge, or a surprise each turn basically. That'd be cool
- Turn Order
Right now the turn block that has India, French Colonies, Anzac and KNIL feels like its missing a big player to define the action there. I think the intention of the grouping was to organize a miniblock vs Japan more on the pacific side, but the view orientation is going to jump around regardless and the weight of the block just feels a little light since they are all smaller factions there. Meanwhile the grouping that has USSR, UK, France, British-Colonies, and South Africa feels a little heavy/long by comparison, esp since USSR is such an involved turn usually. Maybe it would work better if the British block all went at once, and the French block was paired with the Soviets instead of being split up? (I already think French Colonies is kinda redundant, but maybe if it followed right after France it would be a little more interesting and I'd be less likely to always forget about Syria lol.)
Also its really potent for Japan to follow on Italy's turn, without a major faction coming between them to disrupt Axis coordination there. The way its set up now, Italy is just too strong, and its too easy for Italy to cause headaches for Britain by themselves before the Americans can do anything about it. This is especially consequential for D-Day or controlling the various naval approaches via canals/straights. Having the Britain block follow the Italy block would fix that. I think a better turn order not too dissimilar might be something like this... even if it alters the current balance slightly it's better to address the turn order exploit first I think and then balance off those conditions...
Block 1: Germany, Balkans, Finland
Block 2: Soviet Union, France, French-Colonies, KNIL
Block 3: Italy, Iraq, Iran
Block 4: Britain, British-Colonies, South-Africa, British-India, ANZAC
Block 5: Japan, Thailand
Block 6: USA, China, BrazilHaving French-Colonies and KNIL going with the first block of Allies would signal the fall of France/Holland as a theme and fits the 1940 start date. Having Britain go after Italy (instead of before), also allows a way for both sides to disrupt can-openers and fighter landings, which are otherwise pretty OP in the current set up. It also has the advantage of all the British factions moving in the same block just for consistency and thematic unity. I think the importance of the Middle East and sub Saharan Africa to the play pattern is somewhat outsized on this map, but perhaps a change to the turn order would go a little way towards correcting that, since it'd put Britain between the Italy turn block and the Japanese turn block, giving it some more strategic significance, instead of feeling kind of like an afterthought to the Soviet turn as it sometimes does in the current. Soviet turn is already pretty solid, and having France follow it directly along with French-Colonies and KNIL would still give that player position broader scope (with a few ships to play with and whatnot), but not quite as involved a turn as when it also includes Britain and British-Colonies which are larger factions. They'd fit better in the second Allied player position, which would conveniently have all the Brit themed gang going together.
A blocking like that would make each slot feel more like a full player, like where each block could conceivably be controlled by a separate player in a 6 man, or 3v3 team match, where each player block was at the same basic scale. Without anyone getting bored from not having enough to do, or from not having enough of an impact on the overall game. The second Allied player/block on the team has a bit more to do across theaters, which I think is good, because that player needs to review the whole world map anyway. But geographically paced out a bit there.
Block 4 or the British player block is basically a full map survey though, right at the mid point of the game round. It covers the entire empire at a go, but each of the British faction turns is fairly short, so I like the idea of having them all together, since I think it would make the gameflow feel better there. Might actually be a good player for someone new to the map, since the play from those factions is a bit more guided in terms of what to do. It might help the resource exchange too, since the follow up is more immediate and makes the resource exchange between them and the Soviet player block kinda interesting. France, French-Colonies and KNIL would be pretty fast turns and easy enough to manage from the Soviet Block I'd think, while still retaining similarly global feel for that player grouping too. But including Britain, British-Colonies, South Africa all together with the British-India, and Anzac turn would be clean and easy way to streamline the whole thing. It would also put that player block more on the scale of the others for an easier division, into teams say, or in the case of multi. But anyway the British turn would just feel less disjointed I think that way, and give a smoother play pattern between the 6 major player blocks.
There are some other peripheral things I'd look at or maybe tweak, but after the last few runs those are the biggest that stood out to me as pretty key.
ps. I still think the most interesting things about this map beyond the production spread, are the D10 combat and high cost of infantry (at base 10 PUs) relative to everything else. Its a fun departure from D6 combat and low cost infantry (at base 3 PUs) that most A&A games are built around. I just really like the idea of a large complex map with a complex unit roster, but which is otherwise a pretty simple game in terms of rules overhead, with a total war start and where every faction is working in more or less the same way. The number of factions (esp the smaller factions) might make it seem a little daunting on the Allied side, but I really think having all the British factions move together in a single turn would help with that.
I was looking at the starting unit balance, particularly for Italy vs British-Colonies, but also having French-Colonies and KNIL as part of the Soviet/France block, and I think the turn order change suggested above would work fine without really needing to alter starting units. It'd give a bit more strategic depth to the Italian opening turn, since it introduces more of a naval dilemma in the Med to have the Brits and British-Colonies follow Italy rather than going before. There'd be more pressure on Italy's opening attacks and more danger in the follow up since it allows Brits/Brit-Colonies to disrupt before the USA turn. I think it'd work better for Gibraltar balance as well for that reason. Also, having French-Colonies go before Iraq is helpful for the opening balance on Trans-Jordan. I also think it might also make French-Colonies and KNIL feel a bit more unique and interesting to play if paired with Soviet-France turn where they'd feel more independent as opposed to just an extension of the India-Anzac turn.
So anyhow, that's sort of my big idea for now, putting all the Brits together in turn block 4. I think it'd look more orderly at the launch window too, since it distributes the play blocks a bit more evenly throughout the game round that way, when the British factions are all together. I actually think some of the smaller factions aren't really necessary and could be folded into each other or into the larger factions but that's probably a bridge too far. Having a bunch of little guys does kind of burden the play pattern with a lot of can-opening and fighter landing exploits though. They also kinda limit the purchasing choices that might otherwise exist for a larger faction spread across the same build spots, since you don't have that tension between sacrificing in one area to bolster another, when each area already has its own economy/turn. But since the unit graphic work for the little factions is already done and the current play balance is kind of built around the idea of huddling-up with the little guys for a group defense vs larger forces, I think the ones that are already here like British-Colonies, South Africa, French-Colonies KNIL, Brazil etc are fine, but would be nice if the French-Colonies went with France in the Soviet turn block and the smaller British factions were all grouped together in the next turn Block to present as a more thematically unified thing.
Each of the Axis turn blocks feels good, there is plenty to do and the main faction usually has half a dozen moves to make in a given turn to keep it interesting. The Soviet turn feels similar to the Axis turns in scale. The USA turn not so much at the outset, but they scale up as time goes on and eventually feel like they are on the level of the major Axis players. But that middle turn for Allies feels like a struggle. I think with Britain and British-Colonies leading it, it would feel more on par with the Axis turn blocks and Soviet and USA turn blocks.
Basically a big 6 split: Germans, Soviets, Italians, British, Japanese, Americans. Basic order, which is already familiar from AA50 and such, just with more smaller factions added in to spice it up. But you'd have that kinda touchstone within the turn order to help anchor the other new stuff that might be less familiar, like resource management, the production scheme, D10 combat, move-before-purchase phase etc. But yeah, that's the order I like most, and I think could work well for the current unit spread and starting positions.
- Germany (Balkans, Finland)
- Soviet Union (France, French-Colonies, KNIL)
- Italy (Iraq, Iran)
- Britain (British-Colonies, South Africa, British-India, ANZAC)
- Japan (Thailand)
- USA (China, Brazil)
Any thoughts on doing something like that?
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