Iron War - Official Thread
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Yeah I think Irkutsk would make a lot of sense. The main requirement is that it be far enough inland so Japan can't just knock it out on amphibious or overrun it with fast moving mech/armor, at least for a couple turns.
The dilemma for Russia will always be more income oriented, and trying to figure out a way to deal with the Axis onslaught from the west. So additional starting territories that are factory viable in the Far East are not like a total gift (the money for the units would still have to come from the same Soviet pile) but at least it would give them a way to fight East if they chose to. Or course there is the concern that Japan just takes these territories and uses them to springboard even further into the interior. But the reality is that Japan already has solid production on the coast and the mainland, and can take over Chinese territories for factories closer to the interior, whereas Russia currently just has Siberia at the center to deal with it all. Japan also faces the threats from elsewhere, so its not as if gunning after Russia doesn't involve some trade offs for them too. But yeah, I think it would be fun to see Irkutsk +5, possibly with a starting factory.
It could reflect the population or strategic significance of that city/region as a waypoint, and also as an expression of goods or material brought into Russia via the ALSIB or by rail from points east.
Also here are the saves I use to get things going quickly. I find its faster from launch to load a saved game with everyone set to the AI except for Germany. This makes it simpler for me to just assign whichever slots I want to human, instead of assigning to the AI each time.
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@Black_Elk
Interesting that you can take the whole of France in one turn. The map is designed to let France fall quickly, but the German initial moves and priorities are up to the German player. I hope and aim for a map that allows a whole lot of possibilities for the German initial attack.
@All
I have also noticed that Japan seems to easily sweep across east USSR and China, but also that the USSR does not seem to prioritize this area. Maybe this is because Europe is just much more important and the German pressure to big. That is why this update both strengthens USSR and weakens Germany. I hope this will also prolong the European struggle so Germany does not overrun USSR too easily. The Irkutsk idea is a good one! :slight_smile:, and it will be tried out. Irkutsk is now a 5 PU territory with factory, so USSR can defend the east better. This also adds a few more needed PUs to the USSR economy.
I have now also added a new “map option” to remove the Balkan countries. But I would like to balance the standard map setup first, then it will be a lot easier to balance the version where Germany is larger. But try it out.v0.1.2 to v0.1.3 changes:
• Added a “Map Option” to practically transfer the Balkan states to the German player from round 1.
• Siberia PU raised from 5 to 10.
• Irkutsk PU raised from 1 to 5.
• Irkutsk now has a Factory and 10 units.
• Removed 1 German transport from North Sea Zone
• Removed 15 infantry units from Germany
• Removed 5 infantry from Moscow
• Removed 3 infantry from Finland.
• A few more minor changes to setup.PS: I think this version can be downloaded by deleting and redownloading.
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@Frostion I dig it!
The Russian far east feels a lot better now. Also, I think the situation with Germany vs England/Russia is more balanced. With 2 transports Sea Lion is highly unlikely prior to 1941, and even as a multi-round set up for G3/G4 will require the player to make tough decisions just based on the steel limitations. I think any realistic prospect of pulling it off requires the purchase of the carrier and the participation of the Med transports, which are themselves at least 2 turns out of position (more likely 3 rounds given that the German ships probably need to coordinate with Italy to make it past Gibraltar.) I think this creates a situation where Sea Lion is maybe possible vs the Human player, but probably not such a clearly optimal use of the starting TUV as it was before. Now the British have at least some time to cobble together a defense. Also the Russians can stack a lot heavier in the East, while G tries to set all this up. Nicely done!
In a game vs the AI, the invasion of England still seems doable. I think this is probably for the best, since in a solo game you basically just want to kick ass anyway, and rewrite history hehe. Even against the AI though, doing the Sea Lion thing means compromising any chance for an early smack down of Russia. The delay on the redirect from west back to east is pushed out a couple rounds, owing to fewer German starting hitpoints that can go on the march immediately.
I think the best method for taking London vs the AI is to buy the Graf Zeppelin for fleet defense on G1, and then just feed units into Scotland for a couple rounds while you position the fleet, and ready the attack force, while simultaneously preparing to absorb a Russian advance.
Here is my first run (ongoing) under the new set up, German Solo vs Hard AI...
0_1494314962668_Iron War Elk vs Hard AI Allies Sea Lion G4.tsvg
I was a lot more cautious this time against the British, since I figured G2 Sea Lion was probably out. I thought I'd focus on France first, but still try to position on London with the fleet. I think a G3 hit on England is probably doable as well (at least vs the machine) but just waited another round to make it a sure shot. Now its time to see how the beefed up Soviets handle the squeeze hehe. The Soviet AI already seems to be doing much better against the Japanese AI in the Far East, and I like how Siberia feels for the Russians at +10. If things get too dicey in the West now at least they have a stronger fall back at the center haha. Should be fun!
Nice work man!
ps. Just had a look at the new game setting. My thought about the Balkans is that direct annexation would be cool as an in-game decision (rather than as a pre-game setting.) It seems a shame to lose all those cool units and flags and such immediately hehe. The ideal would be a situation where the first round or two has the Balkans as active minors, but then giving the German player a way to take them over (at a cost). Maybe having a screen at the end of the turn, that gives a one time option to take control of the Balkans directly for X amount of PUs or resources, where all units from Balkan nations are disbanded and G takes over their territories?
Another related idea, might be to also give each major player a more general choice between "Liberation" or "Military Occupation" when reconquering a fallen teammate's territory. Liberation could be free (territory reverts to original owner), whereas Military Occupation would have an associated cost in PUs (territory is annexed.) This would provided a way for Major Powers to gain production footholds if they can handle the expense, and then make more effective use of reconquered territories once a minor teammate gets rocked off the board haha. Just an idea, not sure how simple it would be to implement.
In any case, for this game I kept the Balkan minors in play. Since I liked a little AI cushion against Russia for this Sea Lion attempt. I gotta admit though, once you see Germany in the Balkans, I think it will be hard to go back hehe. Just having access to the Black Sea and the the Bosporus out of Romania makes this option pretty compelling. I think most pvp games would default to that setting, to simplify the map and speed up the game round, so not sure that the minors will see much love outside of the Solo game vs AI, if you can claim them all for G at no cost with the game setting. The option is pretty cool for now though, at least we have a way to tweak this aspect if desired, but I was just going with the default for the time being.
The trade off is 19 PUs in income and a front line starting factory worth 25 TUV in Romania. Or keeping the Balkan Nations which is basically like 5 infantry per round + their starting force for defensive stacking in the East if assigned to the AI. I'll try it under German control next time to see how that plays.
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Wow, seems like the map has really come along over the last month or 2. Nice work Frostion! Though I still stick with I wish the sea was a bit lighter in color
I'd be interested in knowing how folks think the AI is playing on the map. There are a lot of fairly long posts in this thread and if someone wanted to summarize AI gameplay on the current version that would be helpful.
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@redrum how's it going man! Glad to catch you. After v5 this is the map that I've played the most against the AI. I've been splitting my time roughly 50/50 between the Hard and the Fast AI.
All and all I'd say it is my favorite AI map right now, and I think the AI performs even better here than it does on most of the A&A maps (v3 and later) probably owing to the fact that Iron War doesn't use such complex rules for Submarines or Transports.
The AI does struggle in a few areas, probably familiar from other games. The first is with bombing where the AI doesn't take into account intercept when attacking on SBR (or use it for themselves on defense.) There are also some purchasing issues where the AI doesn't seem to buy or make use of the single use attack aircraft such as Kamikazes, V1/V2 rockets, Nukes etc. They also don't use air transports to actually transport infantry, but will still purchase the air transport unit, which is kind of ineffective since it's relatively expensive with a low attack value relative to regular fighters or bombers, so kind of a waste of the AIs cash.
On the water the AI has a tendency to buy a lot more patrol boats than I think most humans would. It can be a good unit to stack naval fodder or as a blocker, but it only moves 1 space rather than 2 spaces, so often they get left behind and destroyed when the main fleet is on the move, The AI will frequently abandon coastal production allowing enemy fleets to take over their home waters, rather than defend them, or set up sacrifice pickets to block naval movement (the way infantry will block on land.) I have noticed some peculiar behavior when it comes to loading transports, where the AI will sometimes load a unit onto a transport during non combat, that is vulnerable to enemy attack rather than keeping it safely on land. This doesn't happen too often, but stands out when it does occur.
Perhaps most significantly right now, the AI doesn't seem to realize that Mech can tow Infantry, so the AI is at a definite disadvantage for moving these units across the game-board. Finally the AI seems somewhat reluctant to purchase new production, even when this would allow them to move units to the front much faster than transports at a similar cost. Especially if the territory is an island or an isolated territory. Mainly I notice this with the USA. The factory unit costs 25 PUs, which is pretty cheap and allows up to 5 units to be spawned (with no cost in steel), whereas the Transport costs 20 PUs (and 1 steel) to ferry just 2 or 3 ground units. So it would definitely be a lot more economical for the AI to buy factories close to the enemy whenever this is possible, to shorten their supply lines. But they don't seem to do this very much, with the exception of Japan.
All that said, playing against or alongside the AI in Iron War is remarkably entertaining. Its certainly the most fun I've had to date with the AI. Just as with other games it is possible to scale the difficult by using income bonuses.
The only thing I really wish we could do is assign those income bonuses on a nation by nation basis (the same way you can assign a bid.) Right now it's a blanket bonus for all AI nations, but this leaves a lot to be desired, not least because the map is designed for some nations on the players own team to be handled by the AI. So this creates a situation where giving a bonus to the AI, means giving your own team an advantage too, unless you take direct control of the entire team (which can make the pace drag.) Even just being able to assign the bonus by side would be helpful, only Axis team or only Allied team gets the boost.
I haven't yet decided whether I prefer the Hard AI or the Fast AI for Iron War. Or a combination approach. Its not too noticeable in the beggining, but after many rounds the Hard AI can start to slow things down. So often times I will scrub reload and switch out the Hard AI for Fast AI just to speed things along (especially with the minor powers.) Also sometimes I enjoy how the Fast AI will throw me a curve ball by attacking with reckless abandon, whereas the Hard AI might withdraw to safety. This could just be because I've seen the Hard AI in action quite a bit, and can now kind of predict how to meta-game it into doing certain things that I can exploit. This occurs mainly on the water, where I can often push AI fleets this way and that, by positioning my aircraft in threatening ways. The AI will almost always withdraw rather than risk being attacked. So sometimes you end up with a situation where the AI will spend several rounds transporting units closer to the enemy, only to transport them back home again, to no real purpose. This seems to happen a lot in the North Atlantic around Greenland.
But again, overall, I really dig the way this map utilizes the AI. I think it's a flagship map, and one that really showcases the best of what tripleA currently has to offer. Much as I still dig Axis and Allies, I think this is the best World War II map on offer right now, and the most compelling for AI development.
In terms of the dev zots, I think I'd rather see the energy used to make this game's AI better, than even global or v5. Because unlike those games which are primarily PvP, this one is actually pretty damn fun to play solo vs the machine. There's just a lot of other stuff going on with it, that makes the AIs deficiencies rather less noticeable than in the more traditional A&A games. My impression is that many people will cut there teeth against the AI in Iron War, and learn how to play on this map against the machine rather than against other humans, at least initially.
The gameplay really lends itself to a 4X style of world domination, where beating up on the AI is a lot of fun in and of itself, even if if you're the only human in the room haha. Still, it would be killer if you could play against the AI in the lobby with bots, since I think this map would also be fun for a co-op campaign.
Anyway, those are my thoughts so far. I think the AI really shines on this map. Even with all the hiccups and silly stuff it does, with enough money it can still provide a pretty fun challenge.
Definitely next level, and way beyond anything I thought possible for tripleA when I first started playing a decade ago. This thing has come a long way, and I'm continually impressed. You guys have done a kick ads job! Trulyps. here is another Germany vs the HardAI, solo Sea Lion plan, but this time with the Balkans under German control from the outset. I like how it plays. You can take England if you want to, but it leaves the East pretty light, so there is a little tension between Russia and Germany. I don't think the AI can really prevent London from falling, but should be remembered that a human player would likely play with a different purchase out of England. Probably 5 fighters a round for several rounds until they have enough to make London so costly that Germany backs off. It's also probably the only way to stop a dedicated expansion of the Kriegsmarine, basically bolstering the RAF until you have more spitfires than they do ships haha. But the AI is happy to ablige for a Sea Lion stomp. I rather like it staying a possibility, it's kind of a nice change of pace to play out a campaign with the focus on England in the first few rounds. Here I got the invasion going on G5, after some early messing about in the Med to build up the oil reserves, the plan was pushed back to early 1942...
0_1494395705621_Iron War Elk vs Hard AI Allies Sea Lion Solo G5 Combat.tsvgHere it is in Early 1945, after Axis Total Victory at 15 VCs. You can kind of see what I mean about the US naval AI. They have a ton of floaters out there in the mid Atlantic that could probably cause us some serious headaches if they made landfall, but thus far they haven't made a breakout. Even if the Allied fleet was somehow sunk in the process it would probably be worth the sacrifice for them to get the expeditionary force moving. Instead they seem content to keep it at a stalemate just out of reach. I did see the US AI make inroads into Africa, taking Morocco and Nigeria at one point, but the Allies are having a tough time in the face of Italy AI's aggression haha. In the East, Japan has been back and forth with Russia all game. It's been pretty cool to see the tit for tat, as the Soviet and Japanese AI jockey for supremacy. Japanese expansion on the mainland feels rather more realistic this way I think.
Pretty fun for a German solo game!
0_1494402604044_Iron War Elk vs Hard AI Allies Sea Lion Solo G11 Combat.tsvgEdit: started another game, this time as the Russians Solo vs Axis AI (with the Balkans under German control.) The German AI seemed to struggle in prioritizing the Danish straits and Norway, so their fleet got kind of stuck and destroyed by the Allies after a few turns. Previously the Kriegsmarine would almost always attack the Royal Navy right out the gate, but this time they went North instead. I think this might actually be better AI behavior in the long run, since it could reflect a somewhat more historical expansion pattern (before they would usually get killed after going for the British on the water with the French fleet mopping them up), but it would probably be cool if they could somehow be goaded into taking over Scandinavia early on. Here they had a pretty tough time dealing with France, perhaps because the Balkans thing had them adjusting their non-com logic? Not sure, but was thinking maybe if Denmark and Norway were worth more PUs the AI might get with the program there, and at least give their fleet a way to escape to the safety of the Baltic sea zones if they manage to survive the opener hehe. I definitely think its more entertaining to play as the Soviets in the Far East now, with the Irkutsk choke point. I feel like it gives you a way to manage a defense on this side of the map, that wasn't really possible before, so I dig that for sure.
0_1494406947231_Iron War Elk vs Hard AI Axis German Balkans Russia round 5.tsvgHere it is a couple round later, 1944. We broke into Germany proper, but the Fascists are still contesting Europe with Italy. The Germans are still sniping in Stalingrad, which is now their last stronghold to cause us headaches hehe, but its pretty cool to see Italy step up. The Japanese AI even pulled a fast one on me, with a bold attack to crush my Far East Army just when I thought I had Manchuria in the bag! Good one Hard AI! Its a 10/10 split on VCs, but I think the Allies are about to come up on the economic win here pretty soon...
0_1494439897780_Iron War Elk vs Hard AI Axis German Balkans Russia round 9.tsvgOk I tried a dozen quick game launches vs the German AI (Balkans under German control) and each time the Kriegsmarine moves to the Norwegian Northern Sea Zone. It does this on non-combat, so the AI is also failing to even disrupt the Russian convoy lane in the process. I noticed that if I edited a single submarine or a single destroyer into the German starting fleet, then the AI would attack the Royal Navy again, if that is the desired outcome. Might be worth considering, since the AI doesn't make particularly great use of the German fleet, except for in that opening attack.
I'm not sure I've ever seen the Germans land troops in Norway to get at the steel up there. Seems like kind of a no brainer hehe. I wonder if it was a gold +5 if they would start going after it with their transports? I know that the Axis will definitely try to take Egypt and Riyadh, so maybe its just a matter of not enough PUs to tempt the AI?
edit: Yet another game vs the Hard AI Axis (with Balkans under German control) this time I played as the USA and China. Figured I try to beef up the Chinese and see how far I could take them. Once again, the German AI seemed to struggle under Balkan control conditions. Whereas before they were taking out France and the Royal Navy and beating down on the Russians pretty consistently, here they are struggling just to maintain their core and immediate surroundings. Not sure why, but for some reason controlling the Balkans seems to really put the zap on their heads hehe. In any case, here is the game in the 8th round, after racking up the economic win for Allies in 1943.
0_1494489759152_Iron War Elk USA and China vs Hard AI Axis German Balkans USA round 8.tsvgWill probably back off the Balkans thing for now, and continue testing the game with the Axis Minors, since the German AI seemed to do somewhat better when they had the buffer zone. I'm thinking an AI boost is probably best for a real challenge, but its kind of fun to just play as a couple nations and see what the AI does with the others haha. In that game the British AI took Morocco and built a factory there, and British-India AI did the same with a factory in Iran which was kind of cool. In general I like how the AI uses the 5+ spots, when it actually drops factories on em.
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@redrum Sorry I kind of suck at brevity hehe.
In short, I think the single best thing we could do right now to make the AI more enjoyable, is to have a game option that assigns them an income bonus by sides as a general feature for any map with teams. Fairly straightforward, but I think it would have a solid payoff for SP gameplay vs the machine.
Axis AI team income bonus
Allied AI team income bonusThen I would go with something like the following for basic suggested difficulty settings...
x25% income
x50% income
x75% incomeOr some scale like that, perhaps...
x15%
x30%
x45%
x60%For like "hard, very hard, veteran, extreme", or whatever you want to call them. Just to give players a simple way to ballpark the difficulty settings. Since with enough PU's the AI can overcome most of its deficiencies, and be pretty challenging and entertaining to face down.
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@Black_Elk Yeah... that first reply definitely doesn't qualify as brief or concise
Glad to see you are back around and testing out some new maps with the AI. I haven't really done any AI development the past few months as I got kind of busy with real life but I'm hoping to get back into it.
I tend to agree with you that improving AI bonus settings is probably one of the top priority items that would have a pretty major impact across all maps. My thought is first to make it so you can set the bonuses per nation rather than just for all AIs. Then provide map makers the ability to create 'difficulty settings' for each map which set standard AI bonuses for various levels since +25% income bonus on something like revised is very different than something like WaW.
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Sounds killer!
Just leveled a decisive attack against the Italian AI, with the French hehe. Usually I've been giving the French over to the AI, but I went against Axis with the +25 bonus in play, so I took control of all the majors. The French offensive into Italy is not something I would expect to see in PVP, but apparently under some conditions vs the Hard AI the French can punk them out on the first turn and snatch Rome for 50, if they roll a lucky deuce before Il Duce rolls his 3 hehe. Kind of amusing...
When the Croatian AI decides to send their lone infantry unit to reinforce Romania, it leaves Rome exposed to a 1/3 shot by French. Not something the machine would try for, but with nothing to lose and so much to gain, I'd definitely take a shot on it with France.
I noticed here that the German AI also backed off the Royal Navy attack as well and went to Norwegian Northern Sea Zone. (Though this time they did attack Denmark on G1.) Was just messing around trying to sink the Kriegsmarine, when France game up I saw it was head to head for control Italy. Flew in British fighter support and Italian AI decided to go after Vichy rather than retake their Capital haha. Germany will surely eject them next round, but at least the French can afford an airforce now lol.
0_1494649336514_Iron War Elk vs Hard AI Axis x25 income British-India 1.tsvg
I also noticed that when I assign Axis to the Fast AI rather than the Hard AI, Germany is more consistently aggressive with their opener at least on the water. Maybe it is better to just let them go Fast at least for G1? The Hard AI seems particularly cautious on fleet defense, but in this case it kind of undermines their offensive capabilities in the early game, since they are likely to be trapped on the wrong side of Straits of Denmark. The Fast AI seems more inclined to take the fight to to the Allies, which may help their chances of make an early breakout.
edit:
Started another game vs the Fast AI Axis +25% income, controlling all the majors. The Axis have been fighting pretty well with the boost. The German AI punched a hole down into Stalingrad while I was preoccupied with the Middle East. Now that that's handled and I'm starting to finally roll up Japan on the mainland, the Italian AI can-opened a way into Moscow for Germany! Haha nice one Fast AI. Pretty fun at this level, I like how the extra cash gets the AI buying more aircraft. Here they have a nice collection of multinational fighters hanging out in
down there in Libya, but British India just turned them out of Cairo, so I guess its on in North Africa. Feels like fun, WW2...
0_1494745756731_Iron War Elk vs Fast AI Axis x25 income Russia 9.tsvgA few rounds later and we smoked up the Japanese AI with the technical win hehe, but the Axis AI is still fighting tooth and nail down there in Stalingrad! Here it is in late 1945
0_1494750821659_Iron War Elk vs Fast AI Axis x25 income Russia 12.tsvg -
@Black_Elk
I tried out a lot of different ways to do the annexation of the Balkans: Techs, special annexation stating units, different conditions and triggers, but I ended up with the current much more simple way. I would think that the need for this annexation option is mostly because of some players wanting to get rid of the micro management of these small states, and I understand this. I hope this option will please some players, and that it can be balanced to not be a plus or minus for Germany to use it.I have taken you comment about the front line starting factory worth 25 TUV in Romania into account and removed this factory. Also, germany now gets less PUs after the annexation. Germany seems to still be very able to handle the situation.
Concerning the Sea Lion possibilities that you have found, I hope that a human could defend against this by just building his units in England. This would just lead to a unit buildup race, that Germany would hopefully loose as USSR gets time to build itself stronger and the US would be sailing towards Europe/Africa, while Germany did not expand its PU income. Right now the AI seems to want to build its UK units far way in Canada and sail them to Europe, instead of just building the Transports in Canada and as many infantry in Europe as possible. Maybe the AI will always be vulnerable to this kind of outsmarting.
@redrum
One of the reasons that I did not make the sea any brighter was because the units would start to stick out less. The ships are grey and would become less outstanding. Also, making the sea a bit more bright would make it look like the French land color.Concerning the AI, the Hard AI can really begin to slow the game after some rounds. This map has both air-transports, land transports, submarines, interception and escort, so of course it is a shame that the AI does not fully support these things. Especially as this is as much a SP and Coop map as it is a MP map. Please work on these things
Also, it seems to me that the AI does not value a territory’s canalAttachment, even though this makes a territory pretty important. Would it be possible to make the AI value canalAttachment territories? In this map, Gibraltar is essential, but the AI never ever attacks it.
@All
I have made a new v0.1.4. These are the changes. Hopefully it is downloadable soon:• Western New Guinea no longer has a KNIL factory.
• Western New Guinea and Papua New Guinea is now 2 PU territories, not 5 and 3.
• Darwin is now a 3 PU territory, not 2.
• Colonial-Infantry cost lowered from 7 to 6 PUs.
• Jet-Fighter cost raised from 19 to 20 PUs.
• All start of round videos are now followed by famous WW2 quotes underneath.
• Removed the free German factory in Romania that is placed if Germany plays with the Balkans as German. Also lowered the Balkan territories PU value if they become German.
• Some other minor changes, including a more guarded Italy from start. -
@Frostion Sounds good man. Just downloaded the latest version and am having a look around. I'm not too concerned about Sea Lion anymore. Against the AI it's a novelty (and I kind of like that it's still possible there) but against a human the British should be able to hold it down with a 5 fighter purchase and some maneuvering by the USA to make it prohibitively expensive for the Axis. Not to say that the Germans couldn't pull it off in the endgame, but I think it's a lot less likely to occur in the opening rounds now PVP, just owing to the German limits on transport capacity/steel.
The New Guinea change seems agreeable too. I was always hoping to see it as a forward base for Anzac or the USA, but that of course requires that the territory be first taken by Japan, which wasn't really happening anyway. With no factory in New Guinea, the Japanese can effectively shut down KNIL by taking Sumatra (which would leave KNIL with only Dutch Guiana in S. America as a build location.) I like it.
Elsewhere on the board the French and British Colonies along with KNIL present a bit of a dilema for Axis, since taking those territories can open things up for the major Allies after liberation. So Axis have to be somewhat cautious about not expanding beyond their reach too quickly. West Africa or South America for example can become a nice hub for the US, if Axis make a land grab there without warships to back the play long term. I like that tweak introduced a few version back. I'll admit that when choosing an expansion pattern I always focus on the +5 territories, with anything worth less more as targets of opportunity. But in the case of New Guinea I think it works well for the overall balance to reduce the value as you have here.
The Balkans option seems cool too. I wonder, if the goal there is to speed up the turns PvP, if the Allies should have a similar option to take direct control of the British Colonies, South Africa, French Colonies and KNIL? Might be a cool compliment to the Balkans thing for Axis.
That would take it from 27 player nations down to 18, which would probably accelerate the play pace quite a bit, in a PvP where each is controlled by the human. Just an idea. I think in most SP games vs the AI, I would use the full set if nations, but I can see the appeal of streamlining things for PvP or CoOp.Probably the only other area of improvement that I can think of would be in the central Pacific. Right now there isn't a whole lot drawing the Japanese AI towards Hawaii, so the surprise attacks on Pearl is kind of unlikely. I think the issue there is that Japan lacks a good springboard territory to get them onto the Hawaiian sea zone.
The best solution I can think of would be a map adjustment to include Truk (Caroline Islands) in Pacific 5 Sea Zone as a starting Japanese territory +5 with a factory on it. This would reflect the massive base located here since pre-war times. Could probably work both ways, either as a lilly pad for Japan to attack the US/Anzac, or in reverse as a target territory for the Allies...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hailstone
Despite its small size I think that Truk (not currently included) was more historically significant to the war than many of the islands that are on the map right now, such as Aru, Timor and the like. Such that it's absence seems a little conspicuous. It was the home base for the Japanese fleet for much of the war, and one of their most important strategic holdings in the Pacific. Below is a quick summary from the wiki...
"During World War II, Truk Lagoon was the Empire of Japan's main base in the South Pacific theatre. Truk was a heavily fortified base for Japanese operations against Allied forces in New Guinea and the Solomon Islands, serving as the forward anchorage for the Japanese Imperial Fleet.
Truk Lagoon was considered the most formidable of all Japanese strongholds in the Pacific. On the various islands, the Japanese Civil Engineering Department and Naval Construction Department had built roads, trenches, bunkers and caves. Five airstrips, seaplane bases, a torpedo boat station, submarine repair shops, a communications center and a radar station were constructed during the war. Protecting these various facilities were coastal defense guns and mortar emplacements. The Japanese garrison consisted of 27,856 IJN men, under the command of Vice Admiral Masami Kobayashi, then Vice Admiral Chuichi Hara, and 16,737 IJA men, under the command of Major General Kanenobu Ishuin. Due to its heavy fortifications, both natural and manmade, the base at Truk was known to Allied forces as "the Gibraltar of the Pacific".
A significant portion of the Japanese fleet was based at Truk, with its administrative center on Tonoas (south of Weno). At anchor in the lagoon, were the Imperial Japanese Navy's battleships, aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers, tankers, cargo ships, tugboats, gunboats, minesweepers, landing craft, and submarines. In particular; Yamato and Musashi were stationed at Truk for months around 1943, unable to participate in battle. Some have described Truk as Japan's equivalent of the Americans' Pearl Harbor."
With Truk/Carolines as a +5 starting factory territory, I think you'd see a lot more back and forth across the Central Pacific, with more opportunities for the cat and mouse game between the IJN and the USN. This would provide a more historical play pattern than what we typically see in A&A games, where the action is always oriented on the "Money islands" of the East Indies, which were not a serious flashpoint during the actual war after their initial invasion by the Japanese. (Basically the Allies contained and bypassed them, relying on Subs to disrupt the supply of oil and rubber.) I think Truk at +5 might be the ticket to getting a real island hopping campaign going for Japan or the US, since Pacific 5 Sea Zone is within range of so many other islands.
One of the main reasons I prefer Iron War to G40 or similar A&A games, is that we are not beholden to an arbitrarily low production spread with so many worthless Pacific islands. The PU values in Iron War are clearly in the service of the gameplay needs, which is just a superior approach in my view. I love Hawaii +5 for example (I think it could even support a starting factory). If so the idea would be to have Truk as a Japanese counter balance to US production Pearl, as a way to jumpstart the island action in the Central Pacific (something that has been missing from basically every A&A game going back to Classic haha.)
If going that route with a Map adjustment, I'd also consider adding Malta too as a +1 territory, just as a nod to history. I think with the map distortion in the Med you could get away with putting it in on the far left side of the Adriatic Sea Zone (would probably be more interesting for the gameplay than putting it in the Tyrrhenian Sea Zone, which already has 3 islands.) Just a thought. It could be a cool early landing pad for the Allies, as they struggle to deal with Italy in the Med.
Here is my first attempt under the new set up. Germany Solo vs the Fast AI (with Balkans under German control.)
0_1494957300817_Iron War Elk vs Fast AI Allies Balkans to Germany G4.tsvg
I put the Soviets on blast right out the gate. I made the Sea Lion feint into Scotland but then doubled back with everything on the Eastern Front. I think we must have put the spook on the Russians, since they pulled off their factories in Leningrad, Archangel, and Stalingrad, allowing our German mech to roll them up. Pretty epic for a quick German offensive haha.
One thing I really like is how the Americans made a B Line for Iceland and Morocco, which shows that even the AI will get with program and advance on Europe provided the Kriegsmarine isn't brining the heat on the Atlantic crossing.
ps. Here is the same game a few rounds later, after the Germans consolidated their position on the Eastern Front. It's kind of cool to see how, despite being flattened at Moscow, the Soviets have re-oriented themselves around Siberia and the Far East (even purchasing a factory for Vladivostok!) Nice one Soviet AI heheh. Also, you can see that the US AI is making pretty good use of Morocco. Even though the Kriegsmarine moved to cut them off, the Americans built a forward factory here, to give their Torch campaign a little more fire. Meanwhile the Japanese AI just got worked by the Australians, with an airblitz in the gulf of Thailand. Half the IJN went to the bottom of the sea, and the other half was forced to pull off their campaign in India. Japan is now down to just a single transport and a handful of warships, so I expect that the Allied AI will have them broken down in fairly short order. I wonder if the Truk idea might help the IJN, by giving them another location for introducing early naval TUV onto the board, other than the Japan sea zone?
0_1494960303626_Iron War Elk vs Fast AI Allies Balkans to Germany G7.tsvg
Edit: Just had an idea, which I think would have general applications on any map, but would be particularly cool for one like Iron War. What if we could Edit "Switch Teams"? Or assign any nation to a new "Third Team" which was hostile to existing teams, and friendly only with other third team nations?
Having this as a pregame option would be cool for any map, but it would be even better as a feature of the edit mode.
Such a tool to change a nation from an existing team to a new third team, would allow teammates to eventually become rivals or adversaries in the endgame. It could be either built into the game, or at the players discretion. I think it would be coolest as an edit feature on the fly.
But basically you could have a game where the Allies destroy the Axis, and then Russia forms a new team to just go straight into an alternate cold war 1950/60s final bought. Or similarly you could have a game where Axis prevail and then Germany and Japan go into their own brinksmanship "man in the high castle" game with nukes and all. It would also give you a way to model armistaces or side switching the occurred during actual war like with Italy and others go over to Allies.
I think something like this would be ideal for a game like Iron War, especially versus the AI, where two players can go Co-op but then break into opposing teams once the mutual AI enemy is destroyed. Or in SP one might choose to break from their original team and just go total domination vs the AI at the end.
Just an idea. I think it could work for many maps, and provide a way to make existing team games into an FFA if desired.
Iron war is pretty well polished and has all the cool features one would want for such an endgame, including jets and rockets and strategic weapons. I could easily see it make a simple transition into a game that plays through the 1960s for the players who are truly diehard about it haha.
I don't know maybe at some point down the line you tech in helicopters, supersonic bombers and jet fighters, nuclear Submarines and ICBMs. So that by like round 20 or 30 you're basically in the space age! Hehe.
The basic map and game architecture here (the core production spread and diverse unit roster with tech advancement as a built in feature) is all interesting, and dynamic enough that I could probably play it endlesslessly. If team switching was a feature, the only real hard limit to the possibilities would the total number of player nations and ones endurance to play till the sun comes up
Started a new one vs AI Axis, no AI boost just the regular set up with Axis minors. Kind of impressed with the Bulgarians at the moment since they've taken Greece and Istanbul haha. So far feels pretty solid as the Allies. I've been pushing my luck as far as it'll take me, and bought a carrier with British right off the bat, just to see what cracks off. Tried to go as forward as I could with the Soviets too against Finland, Persia and Japan, to see if I could break them before the German AI overruns the center. On the water the IJN is gunning pretty far from home, this time in the persian gulf to smoke my British India fleet. That last round was a savage exchange that left us both decimated on the high seas haha. Fortunately Anzac and the US are starting to get in position.
Should be fun...
0_1495004259429_Iron War Elk vs Fast AI Axis US 4.tsvgTotal Victory for Allies by the 7th, with the Soviets building a glorious Pacific Fleet hehe. Looks like the Axis were no match for our red advance in the Far East this time. Germany let the British into the Baltic by neglecting to retake Denmark for a couple rounds, which seemed to be all the Allies needed to stop their offensive against Moscow.
0_1495008537597_Iron War Elk vs Fast AI Axis Russia 7.tsvg -
@Black_Elk
The Truk idea was a good one, and I have implemented it now. It was pretty difficult work to implement a new territory, but I was able to do it, even though I don’t feel like doing more of that.
The islands look nice and I am satisfied with the quality of the graphics. 
For gameplay reasons Truk is located in the old Pacific Sea Zone 5, but geographically it should maybe be located in Sea Zone 4. :upside_down:Truk and Hawaii have starting factories. I can see that it opens up new possibilities for many players and that it opens up the pacific to more action. The US AI seems to now have a lot more focus on the pacific. Sometimes it focuses solely on going after Japan, even though it does seem just bypass Truk, maybe because Japan stacks units to prevent invasion. Sometimes USA splits its efforts to be 50% Europe and 50% Pacific.
Either way this helps out Italy, as the USA seems not to go after Morocco that much, which is kind of a shame. But then again Italy seemed to be the first nation to fall of the tree major Axis players, so it gives them a break. Sometimes UK takes Morocco. A human US player could always go after Morocco.
Japan seems to handle itself ok, but sadly it seems to have that German tendency of not building fleet power. It would be cool to see the Japanese and US navy try to battle each other more. Japan seems to focus solely on building army to fight on the mainland, especially try to kill off China and grab USSR territories.
Truk has a starting army and a navy, including a Transport. It has a 61% chance of killing of the Hawaii fleet in round 1, but it would be hard/impossible to also invade with the 3 possible troops in round 1. The AI seems to always want to move this Truk fleet to go join up with other ships and use the troops to invade islands in round 1, and that seems good to me. AI will also seems to stack up units on Truk to prevent invasion, so if there are not 3 troops and a fighter on Truk from round 1, Japan will build here in round one and this will weakening its round two on the mainland, and that seems to be a big setback for Japan. So Truk must have starting units.
Switch Teams? Like if the Axis are winning, Japan could suddenly jump ship and make its own team? Try to win with new war goals? And Germany could in return keep on being axis loyal or maybe join allies? I like the idea, and in the real WW2 I think the US actually thought about continuing on towards Moscow and bringing along the remnant German forces. Also it is a nice tribute to "man in the high castle". I am just not convinced that it would be a good idea to add this game changing feature. Also the tech realy stops around WW2 endgame, and does not take the future into account.
@All
To play this new version ASAP, delete your Iron War zip in downloadedMaps and redownload. Sometimes it takes a few attempt to redownload. But eventually it works.v0.1.4 to v0.1.5
• Added ”Truk” territory (5 PUs) in the pacific.
• Renamed Pacific Sea Zone territories to include Truk Lagoon Sea Zone.
• Hawaii and Truk now have starting factories.
• Bomber is now 7 attack not 8. -
I like the changes. This really adds some zesty zing to the Pacific.
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@All
The first Truk version (v0.1.5) seemed to not have a balanced fuel setup. Especially Japan ran out of fuel pretty quick because of the new ships. I try to do a start setup and fuel balance that lets every player not run out of fuel the first two rounds, but after that they must become thirsty.
Here is a version that has fuel adjustments (unzip the xml and put it in the iron war zip in the downloadedmaps dir):0_1495143924643__New_Truk_XML.zip
PS: This new version is now the ingame downloadable one.Truk, 1940
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Nice work. It seems like this map is coming along quite well
I'll have to try the new version out sometime soon. Truk certainly will make the Pacific more interesting.
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Looks rad! I'm downloading the latest right now. I played a quick German solo earlier just to see how the Fast AI would handle the Pacific (using the file from before the fuel adjustment.) The Japanese AI used their starting fleet for island attacks, and then went West against India. But the US swooped on Truk and made it into a forward outpost for their own navy, which was pretty cool.
In most of my games Japan likes to send their fleet far from home, frequently converging with the Italians in the Indian Ocean. Could be a relic of the AI going back to Revised gameplay, where the IJN in the Med is a pretty common occurrence hehe. Probably the Japanese AI is destined to slog it out on the mainland first and foremost. But at least in a game between humans I can see a lot of potential here in the Pacific for some naval action and island hopping back and forth! I dig it
OK I got a new game fired up, this time as US solo vs Fast AI. I'm liking the Axis play so far. The German AI is using the remnants of their starting fleet to keep my transports off Iceland hehe. Nice one! I also like the way the Japanese AI is positioning itself on the water, keeping me off Truk for another round at least.
0_1495150026317_Iron War Elk US Solo vs Fast AI Axis USA 2.tsvgThe following round Japan went after the Australians! They also stacked up Truk with 10 hitpoints, digging in to make it a bloody affair. I like it!
0_1495150774327_Iron War Elk US Solo vs Fast AI Axis USA 3.tsvgA few rounds later... the German AI is gunning full force after the Soviet Union, putting the serious heat on Leningrad then cracking Moscow and Arch. But it seems the British AI has decided that it's time for an early D-Day hehe, so I think I have to back the play, even though we just barely got set up on Africa. Meanwhile the Japanese AI are staying rather forward with their fleet this time, with IJN parked firmly in the Celebes Sea zone, to face down the USN which is now based out of Truk hehe. I think this addition is pretty fun, I think it can also work as like a stand in for some of the other island campaigns that may or may not occur in a given game, but at least here there is always at least one island flashpoint in the Pacific that the US can gun for early on. I'm enjoying it a lot. Nice work man!
0_1495152137984_Iron War Elk US Solo vs Fast AI Axis USA 5.tsvg -
Wow this map has come a long way! Can't wait to spend more hours on another Frostion masterpiece
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Started another game USA solo vs fast AI. I'd say the balance of power feels pretty solid under the latest version.
I think most of the remaining issues are AI related. Its kind of tough because the Fast AI seems more efficient and aggressive on attack, but it suffers from not prioritizing high value territories. So in this game for example, the US was able to swoop on Japan with a superior force, and had to face down only a handful of Japanese defenders on the home island. I think the Hard AI may be better at developing defense power for their core territories, even if its a little slow, so next game I think I'll try vs HardAI with a boost.
0_1495221075707_Iron War Elk US Solo vs Fast AI Axis USA 8.tsvg -
Here is a new updated version of Iron War. This version has tried to enhance the map with some more PUs swapping/cooperation between some of the major players. I have tried to maintain some realism by only letting USA support the main Lend-Lease nations, and then let UK support British-India and ANZAC. The three major Axis players may support each other. It is only possible to support up to a fixed amount, so the ability to gang up on one player is kind of restricted.
Also, I try to let the game and the nations still be able to run decently without anyone supporting anyone, like if the AI controls them.
Also, USA, Iraq and Iran are now able to ship fuel to their major allies, and the system is AI compatible. They are the only three players that do always seem to have a surplus of fuel after ca. round 2 if the AI controls them, so all other major players would maybe want to receive some fuel at this point. Maybe AI players move more around than humans and use more fuel, I don’t know. But it seems fairly balanced now. If you test, please tell what you experience concerning fuel needs.
v0.1.5 to v0.1.6 changes:
• Balkan states no longer have music and end of turn sounds (so these sounds will not play for the German player if the game is started with the option “Balkan states are German” while also starting the game with the Balkan states as that same human player. This lead to five unwanted music tracks being played simultaneously after every German player turn).
• Marines are now A2/D3 like Infantry, not A4/2D (still has amphibious +1A bonus)
• Transport is now 0A/1D, not 1A/1D.
• Added German, Italian and Japanese user actions to support each other with PUs.
• Added British user actions to support British-India and ANZAC with PUs.
• Added USA, Iraqi and Iranian possibility to support allies with Fuel. (AI compatible system)
• More fuel availability adjustments.
• Some other minor alterations. -
Looks cool! Just downloaded about to fire up a Solo. I'm intrigued by the rework for the Soviets. Looks like the crash into Persia should be a little narrower now, but with more boots at the ready to absorb the German onlsaught. Down to 2 transports the Germans should have to really concentrate on gaining the upper hand against the Russians early. Those Soviets can stack pretty deep, so I might have to start sending the troops in Austria to the East now instead of using them in the Med transport actions hehe. Should be fun coming up with a new plan.
I still wonder about Norway, whether it might see more action as True neutral? With everything else Germany has going on, probably becomes tough to send units up there, but if it was vulnerable to Allied occupation that might be a further incentive for G to hop on it.
Can't wait to test out the new resource sharing!
Nice workCatch you in a few
ps. Ok just played the first few rounds. So far so good! I've noticed USA, Iraq and Iran all spreading the love around with that extra oil. The US was greasing the wheels all over the place, while Iraq/Iran threw some of their oil at Italy/Germany. The Russians feel like true titans here on the Eastern Front. I dig it!
0_1495431987179_Iron War Elk vs AI Allies Germany 4.tsvgDecided to press my luck on the attack, with the hammer to Leningrad. Going toe to toe with Stalin, all-in, while I wait to see what the West will do. I've also been enjoying the show that the Japanese AI has been putting on down there by Australia. The Americans are still throwing their weight in oil around, this time sending some to France. Fun stuff!
Here it is a round later, in early 1942...
0_1495433064474_Iron War Elk vs AI Allies Germany 5.tsvgGoing to see if I can sneak in another round or two before I pass out.
7th Round still going... duking it out with the AI
0_1495470999844_Iron War Elk vs AI Allies Germany 7.tsvg -
Just caught this error for the first time... it fired off in the middle of the AI's last turn. I guess Stalin's head exploded from thinking too much about oil hehe. So far it hasn't crashed out the game or anything, but I will probably start a new one anyway.
0_1495471888064_Iron War Elk vs AI Allies Germany 9.tsvg
triplea.engine.version.bin:1.9
Loading map: iron_war, from: C:\Users\jason\triplea\downloadedMaps\iron_war-master.zip
Loading resources from the following paths: [C:\Users\jason\triplea\downloadedMaps\iron_war-master.zip, C:\Program Files\TripleA_1.9.0.0.3627\assets]
Loading map: iron_war, from: C:\Users\jason\triplea\downloadedMaps\iron_war-master.zip
Loading resources from the following paths: [C:\Users\jason\triplea\downloadedMaps\iron_war-master.zip, C:\Program Files\TripleA_1.9.0.0.3627\assets]
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-USSRCombatMove: could not move [Medium-Tank owned by USSR] over Route:Ural -> Sverdlovsk -> Tatarstan because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 2 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-USSRNonCombatMove: could not move [Submarine owned by USSR, Submarine owned by USSR] over Route:North Atlantic 3 Sea Zone -> North Atlantic 5 Sea Zone -> Atlantic 7 Sea Zone because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 4 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-USSRNonCombatMove: could not move [SP-Artillery owned by USSR] over Route:Irkutsk -> Bartsk -> Khakassia because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 2 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-USSRNonCombatMove: could not move [SP-Artillery owned by USSR] over Route:Syria -> Transjordan because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 1 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-USSRNonCombatMove: could not move [Medium-Tank owned by USSR] over Route:Ural -> Yamalia -> Khanatia because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 2 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-USSRNonCombatMove: could not move [Submarine owned by USSR] over Route:Midway Island Sea Zone -> Pacific 5 Sea Zone -> New Hebrides Sea Zone because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 2 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-USSRNonCombatMove: could not move [Mech-Inf owned by USSR] over Route:Orissa -> India -> French India because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 2 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-USSRNonCombatMove: could not move [SP-Artillery owned by USSR, Mech-Inf owned by USSR] over Route:Orissa -> Nepal because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 2 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-FranceNonCombatMove: could not move [Mech-Inf owned by France] over Route:Gabon -> Equatorial Africa -> Ubangi-Shari because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 2 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-French-ColoniesNonCombatMove: could not move [SP-Artillery owned by French-Colonies, Mech-Inf owned by French-Colonies] over Route:India -> Orissa -> Nepal because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 4 Fuel for this move
WARNING [Triplea start thread] ProAI -> 8-BritainNonCombatMove: could not move [Destroyer owned by Britain, Cruiser owned by Britain] over Route:San Diego Sea Zone -> Gulf of California Sea Zone -> Gulf of Fonseca Sea Zone because: Not enough resources to perform this move, you need: 4 Fuel for this move
java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
at java.awt.image.DataBufferByte.<init>(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.image.Raster.createInterleavedRaster(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.image.BufferedImage.<init>(Unknown Source)
at games.strategy.ui.Util.createImage(Util.java:86)
at games.strategy.triplea.ui.screen.Tile.createBlankImage(Tile.java:90)
at games.strategy.triplea.ui.screen.Tile.getImage(Tile.java:66)
at games.strategy.triplea.ui.BackgroundDrawer.run(MapPanel.java:850)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
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