Civil War | War Financing Issues

wirkey

@cernel I don't have any of those old save games. But I just tested it with a new one. Union payback increases if Confeds don't pay their debt.

RogerCooper

@cernel Is there any actual reason for this complexity? Governments always borrow as much as they can in a war and that should be reflected in their normal production.The burdens of unsustainable debts and taxes are best handled as timed events.

Cernel

@rogercooper I don't believe the American Civil War is well known outside of America, or at least it is not well known by me (side note, here it is called "Secession War", because if the South just wants to break away, then it is not a Civil War, that would mean both want to impose their sway on the whole polity), and, anyways, I've not a strong opinion. Aside from historicity, I'm mixed, as well, but I think, if any, I would represent only the external loans, and not the internal debt. The only thing that looks really wrong to me is that everything but militia dies if you default; I've a hard time believing that's realistic, but I don't even know what actually happened historically with the Confederate debt (having lost the war, I guess they defaulted at some point).

Veqryn used to say that triggers like these are bad practice, and may cause problems:

    <attachment name="triggerAttachment_Confederate_Default" attachTo="Confederate" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.TriggerAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="conditions" value="conditionAttachment_Confederate_HasBackPayment_Anywhere"/>
      <option name="when" value="after:ConfederateUserActions"/>
      <option name="removeUnits" value="all:ConfederatePayment:ConfederateDebt:infantry:elite_infantry:cavalry:elite_cavalry:artillery:general:gunboat:ironclad:frigate:battleship:submarine:engineers" count="10000"/>
      <option name="notification" value="ConfederateDefault"/>
      <option name="players" value="Confederate"/>
      <option name="resource" value="PUs"/>
      <option name="resourceCount" value="-10000"/>
    </attachment>

I think I'm leaving them alone, not sure, mainly because otherwise I would need to refactor a lot, but just giving the info here.

I'm also curious if any developers know if it is true that they might give problems, or not anymore, and why? I never understood why, just took Veqryns word, but it does seem more logical to me to have 1 trigger per each actual thing.

Practically, I believe the above sigle trigger should have rather been 3 triggers like these, or at least this is what Veqryn wanted (tho I don't actually know why):

    <attachment name="triggerAttachment_Confederate_Default1" attachTo="Confederate" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.TriggerAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="conditions" value="conditionAttachment_Confederate_HasBackPayment_Anywhere"/>
      <option name="when" value="after:ConfederateUserActions"/>
      <option name="removeUnits" value="all:ConfederatePayment:ConfederateDebt:infantry:elite_infantry:cavalry:elite_cavalry:artillery:general:gunboat:ironclad:frigate:battleship:submarine:engineers" count="10000"/>
    </attachment>

    <attachment name="triggerAttachment_Confederate_Default2" attachTo="Confederate" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.TriggerAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="conditions" value="conditionAttachment_Confederate_HasBackPayment_Anywhere"/>
      <option name="when" value="after:ConfederateUserActions"/>
      <option name="notification" value="ConfederateDefault"/>
    </attachment>

    <attachment name="triggerAttachment_Confederate_Default3" attachTo="Confederate" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.TriggerAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="conditions" value="conditionAttachment_Confederate_HasBackPayment_Anywhere"/>
      <option name="when" value="after:ConfederateUserActions"/>
      <option name="resource" value="PUs"/>
      <option name="resourceCount" value="-10000"/>
    </attachment>

So, if a developer can clarify if it doesn't matter anymore, or if it still does, and why, that's a thing that I've never understood (or, rather, was never explained). If it is still preferred to split, I might refactor a few this way, while I'm at it.

Also, it would be good having a trigger that allows you to set resources at a specific amount so, among other things, you can just define them at 0, instead of removing 10000, or so (of course, it practically works, but it's a workaround an unsupported feature).

redrum

@cernel I'm not aware of any particular reason that having 1 trigger instead of 3 in that case would be any worse.

Setting to a specific amount instead of adding/subtracting is probably a good feature request.

Cernel

A thing that feels really strange to me is how the limit of 50% interest is handled.
It makes sense that you cannot go over 50% interest, or some level (and, being trigger based, you gotta stop at some point).
But what I would expect is that, if you go over 50%, that means nobody gives you new loans anymore.
Instead, how it works (and here it seems this is intended) is that you just never go above 50%, but they keep giving you loans at 50%, no matter if you keep defaulting them again and again.
Anyway, it might be a moot point. Does anyone know of a game where somebody actually reached 50% (with Confederate)?

p.s.: I'm almost done.

Cernel

This is the pull request for the new Civil War that, hopefully, makes War Financing bug free and a little more intuitive the use and track.
https://github.com/triplea-maps/civil_war/pull/6

This is the yaml update:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/pull/3469

@redrum @LaFayette to merge.

This is the changelog, I've added at the end of game notes of both games:

Refactored War Financing, to correct several unintended behaviours (the Union never had consequences for not paying instalments or arrears, and Confederate not paying regular instalments increased payment costs for Union too) (xml bugs).
Lowered the costPU related to 50% interest payments from 45 PUs to 44 PUs, as per descriptions (xml bugs, assuming the descriptions are correct).
Corrected some wrong descriptions for War Financing user actions.
Refactored War Financing, to present only one "take loan" action, when multiple would be available (but you are able to take only one and they are equivalent).
Refactored War Financing, to allow paying for a regular instalment only after having settled the arrear for the same loan, if any (no point paying the regular instalments if you default).
Default on loans messages given to both players, and reworded.
Added messages to notify any increases in interest rates (upon skipping payments), given to both players.

Civil War players of all countries, test!
I'd like the War Financing part of this game being bug free before updating the costPU.

Cernel

There is another item to address, regarding War Financing.

When you default, there are triggers removing all the following units for the player:

infantry:elite_infantry:cavalry:elite_cavalry:artillery:general:gunboat:ironclad:frigate:battleship:submarine:engineers

Meaning all units are removed except:

militia
train
pontoon_bridge
transport
torpedo
any fortification
any resource producer

However, this how the rule is given in notes:

All non-infrastructure units except militia are disbanded and removed from the map.

This is contradicting the trigger coding as train, pontoon_bridge and transport are not infrastructures, while they are not removed. Moreover, it may be argued that torpedo is not identified as infrastructure in notes, either, just in the xml definitions.

So, if we would be using the xml definitions, the info in notes should be changed to:

All non-infrastructure and non-transport units except militia are disbanded and removed from the map.

However, this is as much a bad definition as it is correct. Infrastructure is a code definition that it is to some extent unintuitive (I doubt most regular user think you are also talking about torpedo, when saying infrastructure), and it is not actually referenced in the notes or in the units descriptions. Saing "capturable", instead of "infrastructure" would be some better, but still not really good.
On top of this, torpedo is an infrastructure, code wise, while it is not an infrastructure according to the notes (and the common sense); so better just not using the term infrastructure at all.

An acceptable definition, making use of the classifications in notes, may, thus, be:

All combat and command/logistic units except militia and torpedo are removed from the map.

And, in notifications, we can say it this way:

combat, command and logistic units except militia and torpedo are disbanded.

I've updated the pull request at my previous post accordingly.

redrum

@cernel I think adding that clarification to the notes is fine and leaving the trigger as is.

RogerCooper

@cernel No one was buying Confederate debt internationally. The debt was defaulted on (and the debt of secessionist states was declared void by the US Supreme Court). Only the Union had access to international financial markets. But that was not a significant factor, as the Northern economy could easily produce weapons. The South was able to get weapons in past the blockade, paying for it with cotton. Insanely, Jefferson Davis initially embargoed the sale of cotton, hoping to pressure the British into recognizing the Confederacy.

The whole loan mechanism in the scenario has little historical relevance.

Read the Wikipedia article on the American Civil War. The North had a tremendous economic advantage (4-1 in GDP) but the size of the Confederacy, greater military readiness and the way the technology of the time favored the defense, gave South a reasonable prospect of defensive victory.

Cernel

I don't plan to add any more commits to the civil_war pull number 6 (just waiting for closure or further review). I plan to make at least another pull request thereafter.

wirkey

@cernel @redrum @RogerCooper
just playing a game using local mode. There is some really strange behaviour. In rnd3 the "bank" wants some really high numbers of PU from the Confeds.
0_1530733787195_cw hale vs wirkey.tsvg

Cernel

@wirkey I tested it and there must be an engine bug. It looks like that the cost is added up for each user action and that if you keep closing the windows and reopening it gets cumulated each time.

redrum

@cernel What version? And if it isn't the latest stable then does it occur there to?

Cernel

@redrum I have the bug @wirkey is describing if I load his savegame with 1.9.0.0.10498.
I don't have it if I load it with 1.9.0.0.9687.
I don't seem to be able to reproduce the issue starting a new game (with the map currently downloadable (the one still having "costPU"; not the new version I'm still waiting to have it merged), that I assume is the same one as the @wirkey savegame), with 1.9.0.0.10498 or 1.9.0.0.9687, playing it without reloading.

Cernel

Tagged as Fixed.

Moved to Maps & Mods.