Red Sun Over China - Possible Bugs (RESOLVED)

Cernel

@mattbarnes Yeah, I've a big issue with the absence of the muslims, that had small yet fearsome all-cavalry armies. I don't like so much that they are mostly neutrals, but my main problem is that Lanchow is communist, instead of muslim; tho I see that, in the moment the muslims are neutrals (we should rather say "passive hostile"), you don't want to have Lanchow neutral, as that was a main hub of the renforcements coming to the Communists from the Soviet Union; so I'm guessing that's the reason why it is Communist (to represent the Soviet aid through it).
However, beside Lanchow, I don't know exactly where the muslims stop and the communists start; so I cannot give the exact list of territories for that. Anyways, I guess you cannot go too wrong if you just take Gansu, Qinghai and Ningxia, by formal borders, as the Muslim territories. Actually, Lanchow was the most important city amongst all of those regions (but, again, I don't actually know how much Communist influence there was in Lanchow, if any).
Another minor problem I have is West Sikang as Nationalist, as they didn't factually control the western half of that province.
Also, I'm not sure, but i think both Chongqing and Lanzhou didn't have railways during WWII. In general, I'm not sure if the railway system is meant to be historical, and it is based on a publication, but it is just not in accordance with what I have, also for a number of other connections.
But let me point out three things:

This is still one of the most historically accurate maps of TripleA (well, this is a rather easy achievement).
As I already discussed in the past with him, if pulicat would be here, he would probably disagree with all or most of what I'm saying; so I'm not trying to push changes he would probably refuse and argue against (maybe correctly).
While I believe several things are wrong, I don't really know what they shoul exactly be, instead, so I cannot suggest clear changes to the game.

Again, good luck.

Just for info, if anyone is interested in working on this map, this is where you can learn how to mapmake:
skin:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/tree/master/docs/map_making
game:
https://github.com/triplea-maps/the_pact_of_steel/blob/master/map/games/pact_of_steel_2.xml

All or most bugs are due to non backward compatible changes to the TripleA program (you might be able to play the map if you can get the old TripleA program it was designed for).

p.s.: This map would be a good candidate for a "broken" or "incomplete" category, until someone fixes it.

mattbarnes

The fixes pretty much just relate to production generally and also strat bomb damage. I agree it's probably a case of having been designed for an old version of triplea. Having a young family though, I don't think I'll get a chance to learn to map-make just to fix this. I do hope a volunteer can work with me.

mattbarnes

BTW, I did just read a bit of the history and it looks like Pulicat has done his research. There was a 1936 book "Red Star Over China" by Edgar Snow (link to a free copy is on Wikipedia) based on camping with the Communists in Yan'an for several months. I guess this map name is based on that book and period. The game has a territory called Yenan which I assume is the same place and is the centre of the Communist forces in the game. From there, I guess they dominated that broad region and the book describes the Reds fighting towards the NW so the game seems to offer a good approximation of the military situation. By October 1936, when the Reds allied withe Nationalists, the book reports that the Reds controlled all north Kansu (Gansu) above the Sian-Lanchow highway (I assume that one of the game's railways is intended to represent this highway). That does not mean Pulicat was branding any particular people as being communist, just that the communists controlled the area at the time. The book reports the Reds recruiting some muslim troops, fighting others and making big efforts to get them onside against the Japanese. I see also in the history that there were several senior muslim generals in the Nationalist forces. The game shows Ningsia as neutral, which I assume is the muslim region spelled as Ningxia above. Gansu also seems to be neutral in the game, although there was a chinese communist "soviet" established in the eastern part of that region. The book says that the First Front Red Army was based in Yu Wang Pao in southern Ninghsia (another spelling!) at the time. For me, the game seems like a good representation of a narrow period in history and I recommend reading the book!

mattbarnes

And I really really hope someone helps fix the game. I just found that bombers can "damage" the countryside, stopping the Nationalists placing any units at all! Ahhhhh!!!!!

Cernel

@mattbarnes said in Red Sun Over China - possible bugs:

The game has a territory called Yenan which I assume is the same place and is the centre of the Communist forces in the game.

Of course, no problem for Yenan, but, right under it, Sian, also known as Changan, and nowadays known as Xi'an, as far as I know, should instead be a Nationalist territory.
However, again, I don't really know what was the Communist influence in Sian at the end of 1937, when I assume the game is set, but I would need to be convinced about accepting it as the most important (highest production) Communist territory, as what I know is that the Communists were only in Yenan, plus I guess some surrounding territories, while neither of the two circles/cities there in the map should be Communist, with "Sian" that should be Nationalist and "Lanchow" that should be Muslim, thus Nationalist, as well, but I don't actually know if something happened there, after the Sian incident, that made Sian and the couple territories south of it becoming Communist, at this point.

Also, I would remove the "merely decorational" flag, as I don't see the point of showing a capital that doesn't exist.

Cernel

@cernel Side note, in my original WWII sources, from 1940 to 1945, "Yenan" is called "Fushih", but maybe the name already changed, at that point, and just what I have was outdated.

I found this map, that is what I use and used to know as being Communist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaan-Gan-Ning_Border_Region

Thus when I saw so much more assigned to the Communists in this map I was very perplexed about its historicity and never understood where that came from, but I am not sure it is wrong, I don't know (and pulicat believes it is right, but we didn't talk so much, and he didn't convince me specifically).

I was just saying that is the reason I never played (or tried to play) this map.

mattbarnes

@cernel Yeah, I think the Red Star book that Pulicat was leaning on was quite communist-favouring and gave the impression of them dominating a wider region. Reading around the history, the muslim Ma clique in the NW remained Nationalist and most Soviet aid to China went to the Nationalists, who reoccupied Xian after the Incident. However, it's undeniable that the communists were very influencial in that period so maybe Pulicat had to find a way within the triplea engine to ensure they get enough game resources. Since the game has the Chinese allied with each other, maybe the "communists" can just be seen as "the northern chinese forces", incorporating Ma troops, communists and other armies in that area?

It remains a fascinating and highly playable game, all the better for the dynamic of having to manage the northern forces separately and play the guerrilla war. I don't think we should let some historical liberties and poor labelling detract from that fun.

wirkey

@mattbarnes I've played this map several times years ago. The reason for the factories not working might be that they were damaged at the beginning of the game. With one of the engine updates this might cause the problem. Back at the time of this map lots of features where not available.
The main reason I stopped playing was the huge inbalancy towards Japan and as pulicat had vanished for some time nobody to was willing to fix that together with me.

redrum

Well, I'll try to take a look at the map to see if I think it has potential and is worth fixing up. Let's try to use the first post of this thread to collect all the current known problems in detail and how to reproduce them so if I or someone else decides to fix it up then they can jump right in.

wirkey

@redrum I don't remember all the errors, but I do remember some user enforced rules which could be coded with todays engine:

Cities working as transporting hubs: can move from one adjacent territory of the city to (any) other adjacent one (through the city) for only one movement point if your side controls the city
All the building restrictions

erik542

If this map is getting touched up, it'd be nice if the railroads got implemented in a more reasonable fashion. As it stands, the trains are boats that move through two off map territories to get to their destination.

Hepps

@erik542 Yeah I remember moving trains in this being very undesirable.

mattbarnes

As requested by @redrum, here's a short list of what I think are bugs:

nationalists cant build in their factories (except the capital)
nationalist factories are supposed to start damaged and require a premium to repair but this isn't functioning; neither the nationalists nor japan (after capture) can repair/use them
nationalists can build in the countryside but japan can "damage" the countryside with strat bombing, which is probably not intended
2 hit battleships fail to repair
communists seem to get "no allies in my territory" bonus regardless of where allies are
the trains don't seem to be captured when the city is captured; they otherwise seem to operate as described
nationalists are supposed to only be able to make infantry and cavalry in the countryside but the engine allows anything to be built
the PUV bonuses for Objectives are not per the Notes (I'm not sure if the Notes or the Game are the intention)
there are a few rules listed in the Notes which players are supposed to self-impose; it would be neater if these can be built into the game

mattbarnes

And

odd turn order wrt Thailand's turn being interwoven with Japan's (unless that is deliberate?)

erik542

@mattbarnes

Thailand's turn order is deliberate but I think unnecessary.

redrum

@mattbarnes So decided to take a shot at some of these. Here is the PR that is merged and if you redownload the map then you can test them out: https://github.com/triplea-maps/red_sun_over_china/pull/5

Here are the ones that should be fixed:

nationalists cant build in their factories (except the capital)
nationalist factories are supposed to start damaged and require a premium to repair but this isn't functioning; neither the nationalists nor japan (after capture) can repair/use them
nationalists can build in the countryside but japan can "damage" the countryside with strat bombing, which is probably not intended
2 hit battleships fail to repair
communists seem to get "no allies in my territory" bonus regardless of where allies are

redrum

@mattbarnes @wirkey @erik542 So I started reviewing the objectives in the XML vs the notes and here are the discrepancies:

British: Phase II is ON. - 40 in the notes and 30 in the XML
Thailand: Territorial Intergrity - 10 in the notes and 5 in the XML
Thailand: Indochinese resources - 10 in the notes and 5 in the XML
Japanese: Operation Ichi-Go - 30 in the notes and 20 in the XML

Any thoughts on which is correct?

Also there are 2 weird objectives that I'm not sure what they are for or if they were just for testing?

    <!-- Functional NOs -->
    <!-- UK Cap -->
    <attachment name="objectiveAttachment101" attachTo="British" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.RulesAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="objectiveValue" value="-27"/>
      <option name="alliedExclusionTerritories" value="Phase II" count="1"/>
    </attachment>
    <attachment name="objectiveAttachment101" attachTo="British" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.RulesAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="objectiveValue" value="-1"/>
      <option name="alliedOwnershipTerritories" value="Myitkyina" count="1"/>
    </attachment>

PR for a few more fixes: https://github.com/triplea-maps/red_sun_over_china/pull/6

nationalists are supposed to only be able to make infantry and cavalry in the countryside but the engine allows anything to be built
TripleA now enforces "Manchukwo, Japanese, and British may build ONLY in FACTORIES."

PR for another round of improvements: https://github.com/triplea-maps/red_sun_over_china/pull/7

TripleA now enforces "Movement from one side of an enemy city to another is technically possible, but is considered ILLEGAL."
Fixed missing images in the notes unit table

PR for another round of improvements: https://github.com/triplea-maps/red_sun_over_china/pull/8

TripleA now enforces "British are not allowed to fight Axis for the first 3 rounds (Phase I), unless any Axis country attacks it first."

redrum

@mattbarnes @wirkey @erik542 @Hepps So the next thing I'd like to address now that bugs and player enforced rules have been fixed are trains. The trains in this map are pretty funky as Pulicat had to work around lots of TripleA limitations that no longer exist now.

The idea is merging the train concepts from Civil War (cleaner version of the existing ones in RSOC) and Total World War. This leaves a system where the following can be done:

Trains move on 'rails' which are static units defined in certain territories instead of only station to station
There are no separate station territories just station units in the city territories and trains are now land transports
Trains can only load units if they start where there is a 'station'
Trains can unload units in any territory they move to along the 'rails'
Trains are either captured or destroyed when an enemy moves into the territory they are in

The main pros of this system are:

More flexible train movement
No more weird dummy territories in top left
No longer need trains to be sea units or have separate station territories
Trains still should strive to end their turn in territories with stations so they can load the next turn
Trains can unload units in places besides stations
Avoids weirdness of trains still being alive in stations when enemy captures the city

Thoughts?

wirkey

@redrum sounds good, although I'd like to keep some sort of rail lines, like in CW and not the way it is in TWW

redrum

@wirkey Yeah, my idea is to have a much lower percentage of territories with rails (essentially those that it runs through now) vs TWW has rails in just about every territory (mostly due to its scale).

Thoughts on my previous post around the NOs?

Really looking for some more insight from those that originally helped test this map when Pulicat was around as I don't have any experience on it yet.