Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread

RogerCooper

@wc_sumpton How is the scenario coming along?

wc_sumpton

@rogercooper Still working on it. Going slowly because RL and now RDR2 has arrived, slower still. I hope to show a new map soon though.

Thank you @RogerCooper for your interest.

Cheers...

redrum

I'm reviving this thread and making it the official map thread. I've updated the first post and we can collect a list of remaining issues and suggestions here.

@RogerCooper @wc_sumpton It appears there are other versions of this map (2.0, ASoIaF). I'd prefer to just focus our efforts on improving 1 version. Which do you think is the best one? And what are the major differences?

Cernel

Started one in lobby now, we'll see how it goes. Off the cuff, I'm very annoyed at the new tooltips for support info, and surely prefer how it worked back the old times, but I'll be more specific in that thread, since it is not a map fault. Also I don't like that the units don't repair; I know there are the options, but I fear that if I check those then they are overpowered/underpriced. Repair is not really an option, in the moment the price is the same, as it adds a lot of value to the unit (so there is no way the unit can be balanced in both cases).

RogerCooper

@redrum said in Game of Thrones - Official Thread:

I'm reviving this thread and making it the official map thread. I've updated the first post and we can collect a list of remaining issues and suggestions here.

@RogerCooper @wc_sumpton It appears there are other versions of this map (2.0, ASoIaF). I'd prefer to just focus our efforts on improving 1 version. Which do you think is the best one? And what are the major differences?

I suggest GoT. ASolaF needs fixes even to be functional.

Cernel

@RogerCooper I recall ASoIaF was just the old way Game of Thrones was called, so just an old version of it, unless it is something else with the same name, or I don't remember correctly.

Cernel

@Cernel I was Martell, and the other players were Lannister and Stark, rest to HardAI. As I recalled, the AI is no joke in this one, so the game was rather brief. The other two players got seriously contained by the AI, and considered that they were in no position to aim at winning the game, so I got it by surrender. None of us ever actually fought each other, only against the AI.

As per FFA with AI, players like Martell or Targaryen have a huge advantage for the simple fact of being at the borders, thus having their back safe, aside from a few sea borne invasions.\

Have some things to say on units balance, but I would like to be able to actually se who is supporting what, before making a general analysis. I'll ask for a fix on this issue elsewhere.

Cernel

For what little I'm reading at the moment about Game of Thrones, this game should have no capitals. Surprised nobody pointed that out. That would be an easy change, and probably would make gameplay more varied and possibly balanced.

Cernel

@wc_sumpton said in Game of Thrones - Official Thread:

@rogercooper
Here you are sir:
0_1532553171372_Game_of_Thrones_v2.zip

Cheers...

I believe the latest linked upload of Game_of_Thrones_v2 was made back before 1.9.0.0, thus being playable with 1.8.0.9, at this post:
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Game-of-Thrones-Maquis-tp7583763p7584784.html

Did you update your upload yourself for 1.9.0.0 (attatchment to attachment etc.)?
And why is it a mod of "game_of_thrones", using that map as skin (instead of "Game_of_Thrones_v2"), thus missing several units images and other skin elements. Did you change the mapName from "Game_of_Thrones_v2" to "game_of_thrones" yourself, and why? Did you overlook this game is not a mod of "game_of_thrones", but needs its own skin (albeit it doesn't crash using the "game_of_thrones" one), or am I missing something?

Cernel

@Cernel said in Game of Thrones - Official Thread:

@RogerCooper I recall ASoIaF was just the old way Game of Thrones was called, so just an old version of it, unless it is something else with the same name, or I don't remember correctly.

I confirm this, the "ASoIaF" game of the "ASoIaF" map is merely the way the game at this thread (Game of Thrones) used to be called. You can see here that it used also to be in the repository, under this name, for a while:

http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Post-here-to-request-having-your-map-on-the-Map-Repository-uploaded-or-updated-tp7058428p7583396.html

Now you can download it here:
https://axisandallies.fandom.com/wiki/ASoIaF

It can be loaded (successfully) with 1.8.0.9.

@RogerCooper Are you sure you want to keep "ASoIaF" in your Wiki, since it is nothing else but the previous name of "Game of Thrones"? I suppose it is one of the games you plan to update to 1.9.

Cernel

@redrum said in Game of Thrones - Official Thread:

@RogerCooper @wc_sumpton It appears there are other versions of this map (2.0, ASoIaF). I'd prefer to just focus our efforts on improving 1 version. Which do you think is the best one? And what are the major differences?

If you ask me, the best "Game of Thrones" themed map ever made is "A Song of Ice and Fire" by kor438 (but I cannot say it for sure, since I've never played it).
http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/The-Game-of-Thrones-map-bug-tp7587435p7587606.html

Cernel

@Cernel But I think both well deserve to stay in the repository, and in good quality. Also, they are really on two different levels (different maps of the same scenario, not variants).

redrum

Wow. I'm not even sure I understand how many different versions of this map exist... And I'm now more confused than I was before.

Though seems all of them are pretty much broken in one way or another. That is the problem when lots of different people come by and create a new version of it but never really complete it.

@Cernel It would be more useful to just have a single post that links to all the different GoT maps that you know exist and a brief description of your understanding of them. The last one you linked to "A Song of Ice and Fire" by kor438 seems to have made some significant improvements/changes but isn't listed in TripleA and doesn't appear to have ever been upgraded to 1.9.

Again my preference would be to take what is good across the various implementations and combine it together into a high quality and fun map.

Cernel

@redrum Allright. I was thinking about that myself, and, yeah, probably one should make a summing up of all that came out about this scenario over the years. Actually, what is left is only a part of it, as I know there are several "Game of Thrones" maps/variants/mods whose download links are not anymore functional (so, all those are lost, unless @RogerCooper or someone saved them somewhere?).

Well "Game of Thrones" and "A Song of Ice and Fire", as I said, are on two different levels. The first is a straight all war FFA (thus very good for AI gameplay), the second is a considerably more complex game with politics etc.. There is really no reasons to prefer one over the other, as it really comes down to personal preference (is it better Anniversary or Total World War?), especially considering that you know the AI is really not good at dealing with politics, while I can tell you it plays "Game of Thrones" quite well.

Cernel

@Cernel With this said, considering that I don't intend to take ownership or develop any Game of Thrones game myself, and it doesn't seem anyone else is really volunteering for it, if it comes down to saving one only, my vote would go to "A Song of Ice and Fire" by kor438, but with some reserves, only due to the fact that I never actually played it (how can I find people to play a FFA that it is not downloadable?).

Also, the units of "A Song of Ice and Fire" are nice looking and well fitting to the theme, while Game of Thrones has mostly rip-offs from Lord of the Rings (sometimes ill fitted, like in the case of the horse archers represented by chariots...).

Cernel

@Cernel Tho, in case, I would see no problem leaving Game of Thrones in the repository at its current state, anyways (maybe just with the productions cut in half rounded up :winking_face: ). It has stayed there abandoned and largely broken for years so are we going to delete it now that it is at least playable...:smiling_face_with_halo:

RogerCooper

@Cernel I have the file, so I might as well fix it and leave it in. I put a note referencing the new file.

redrum

@Cernel Ok. Yeah, I would potentially leave both the fixed version of GoT that is there now and add in A Song of Ice and Fire if we fix that since they both seem to be reasonable quality maps then. And probably make this thread cover both since they come from the same base map.

Cernel

@redrum Ok, well, that was unexpected. I believe the only thing they have in common is using the same original map artwork at this link:
https://www.deviantart.com/astrogator87/art/Map-of-Westeros-Essos-Sothoros-v2-0-310029783
But, aside from that, it would like putting together two otherwise unrelated WW2 maps just because use the same projection and are both about WW2.
So, to avoid confusion, I would rather keep this thread for Game of Thrones only (and maybe any mods using the same original skin), and make another one for any other Game of Thrones map like A Song of Ice and Fire. If you want I can open that myself with a presentation and some screenshots and such. Let me know.

Another thing that I always thought is that it would be cool if all maps in the repository have the same starting title for the same scenario and none can exclusively and simply have it.
I mean, having maps called like:
Game of Thrones - Something1
Game of Thrones - Something2
Game of Thrones - Something3
(and none just "Game of Thrones")
or
Middle Earth - Lord of the Rings
Middle Earth - Battle for Arda
(and none just "Middle Earth")
etc.
Tho, I've no knowledge of the setting, so not really an idea about how the current "Game of Thrones" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" should be renamed. Also, I guess the decision of renaming "ASoIaF" to "Games of Thrones" was made by Rolf (the main repository maintainer at the time), and he could have just decided to rename it "A Song of Ice and Fire", instead, which would have been more logical with the original name (in this case, we would have had two maps named exactly the same; except that, then, kor438 would have probably picked some other name, to avoid that).

Cernel

Generally speaking (and pointing out that I know almost nothing about it), due to the characteristic of the scenario, I tend to think that a sensible Game of Thrones game can only be played with the aid of the Artificial Intelligence. I think there are two main reasons for this. The first one is that with 9 or more players (the two games we are looking at have 12 and 14 players, actually), it is very unlikely you can get (and finish!) games with all human opponents. A second, and maybe more important, reason is that there are some players that seriously lack strategic options, so I cannot believe anyone would be interested in playing them. For example, what is a human FreeFolk player going to do the whole game against a human Stark player, beside probably endlessy stacking units at the frontline? As per Maquis idea, the only way to solve this second issue without the AI would be assigning multiple powers to each player (akin to Domination 1901), but (akin to Domination 1901) I suppose doing this in a balanced fashion would imply just butchering the setting and the lore beyond recognition.
Needing the AI, in turn, opens the issue that either you make the game a pure all-war FFA, highly damaging the setting, for ruling out the possibilities of any alliances and common defence (that I understand did happen several times in the setting), or you add some politic system, that the AI, at least at its current state, will manage very badly, making the game to a large extent a matter of exploiting the AI politics and hope its randomness will be to your advantage.