AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions)
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@Panther What I asked you is to do the same test you did on "World War II v5 1942 SE TR", but using "World War II 1942 Second Edition" and "World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition", instead (you don't have to send any fighters, just the bombers).
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@LaFayette Thank you for your comments that I understand very well. I just wanted to express my sentiments when the result of all the work put in bug-hunting and investigation might be "ice-boxed".
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@Panther said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
@LaFayette Thank you for your comments that I understand very well. I just wanted to express my sentiments when the result of all the work put in bug-hunting and investigation might be "ice-boxed".
My only issue is really that I think that is going to keep butt-hurting new people, in the moment they see the issue they spent a serious bunch of time sorting out gets just closed after some months, likely discouraging people from bug reporting anymore. Myself, I start seeing that there is not much difference between an issue getting forgotten at the end of the list or closed. I don't think I'm going keep copy pasting the same thing at 6 months intervals, either.
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@Cernel said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
@Panther What I asked you is to do the same test you did on "World War II v5 1942 SE TR", but using "World War II 1942 Second Edition" and "World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition", instead (you don't have to send any fighters, just the bombers).
First try:
Global: AA scored one hit, engine removed the bomber with 2 movement points left:
GlobalAAtest_ncm.tsvg -
@Panther Ok, wow, looks like. I did a test like that and for 4 times in that one and 4 times in v5 and it took out the ones with the lowest movement left in all cases. Can you confirm you are using TripleA 1.9.0.0.13066? I guess I'll do your exactly same test too, now.
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@Cernel Confirmed.
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@Cernel Just for completeness the v5-OOB-savegame, first try, again one aa-hit and again the engine removed the bomber with 2 movement points left.
v5test_3ncm.tsvg -
@Panther Did it ever happen that, when you got hit, the bomber with 2 movement points left didn't die?...
I think there is something more going on here than purely a wrong setting (as also you can see the property "Choose AA Casualties" is enabled, differently from v3 etc.).
So I believe this is yet another bug, not just v5 working as v2 etc. (bugged too, but in a different way).
I can tell you, doing something like in your save, every single time the AA scores 1 hit (or more) with that save, the bomber with 2 movement left die. With randomness you can never be sure, but I'm starting doubting we have a randomness problem here...
What I'm almost sure it is going on here, actually, is that this is not even a case of using a pure randomness casualty, but, instead, taking out fighters with less movement left first, except for skipping the one with only 1 movement left. So, if 1 is lost, it will be the one with 2 movements left. If 2 are lost, they will be the one with 2 movement left and the one with 3 movement left. If 3 are lost, they will be the one with 2 movement left, the one with 3 movement left and the one with 4 movement left. And so on. Likewise, if you have 4 with 3 remaining movement points and 1 with 1, and 2 are shot down, I think you will always end up with 2 with 3 MP and 1 with 1 MP surviving.
On top of this, this skippage of the bomber with 1 movement left happens only in some cases, as I'm sure I tested other cases a lot before, and this was not happening (all apparently worked properly).
p.s.: Can you confirm that, when not random (like the battle AA of v5), the fact that TripleA takes out the air with the lowest movement left is wrong, anyways, as you should be allowed to take out air with more movement left, instead, if you so wish?
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@Cernel I've run this same situation so many times, when 1 hit is scored, always the very unlucky bomber with 2 movements left is killed. The ones with 1, 3, 4 and 5 movement left always survive.
You can try doing it yourselves, again and again: just load this save and click on "Done":
globalaatest_ncm(Cernel01).tsvg -
@Panther said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
Apart from a slightly different setup ( http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=18945&start=8#p67254 ) the game as well as the xml is identical.
I think I would have done that as a custom option of v5, and a set of triggers that makes those setup changes when enabled. After all, this is more or less the same deal as the bid settings.
Or really just change v5 to that and that's it, especially in the moment this game is really far from popular, at least in lobby. This is what we have done for v6, just using the revised setup, instead of the incredibly broken OOB one.
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@Cernel said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
@Panther Did it ever happen that, when you got hit, the bomber with 2 movement points left didn't die?...
I did not test it that often. My tests were only to prove that there was an issue.
However, good find, then!
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@Cernel said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
This has been officially clarified you (and me) were right (tho I was not sure, because I think the rules were not that clear). Of course, that is true the exact same way both for Combat and Non Combat Movement. The only other thing here is the fact that in v2 OOB air units that participated in combat return immediately after combat, so you roll those before the ones that are just non combat moving.
That's interesting! Yes, after combat movement but also during non-combat, which I hadn't fully appreciated.
But that last part is a total surprise - the idea is that aircraft that engaged in combat have declared their non-combat movement in the combat movement phase? That's a big statement.
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@LouisXIVXIV Yeah, Revised/v2 OOB (but not LHTR) is the only game in which you are never allowed to move a same unit both in combat and non combat movement.
What I understand is that first you resolve all battles, then you move to safety your attacking aeroplanes, after all battles are done (so, it's not like retreat, that it is decided at the end of each battle, possibly before starting the next one), which implies you sort of have a special non combat movement for fighting aeroplanes, happening before the regular non combat movement phase, if @Panther can confirm this.
The other thing I wonder, @Panther, is if I can move immediately after combat fighters to empty sea zones, as long as I can move enough carriers to those sea zones in the subsequent non combat movement phase (I believe I can, but just want to be sure).
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@Panther said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
@Cernel said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
@Panther Did it ever happen that, when you got hit, the bomber with 2 movement points left didn't die?...
I did not test it that often. My tests were only to prove that there was an issue.
However, good find, then!
Right, I didn't mean that you have to sort out exactly how it is failing to work. But probably you should reword the "attacker cannot choose casualties (casualty apparently is taken out on a random basis), tested with factory-built-in AA gun against a bunch of bombers)", removing the mention about it being apparently random (as it doesn't appear random at all, to me). Point is that I'm almost sure we have two totally different bugs, one for v2 to v4 and the other one for v5/Global (not sure why not v1 too, if not; the properties for AA gun randomizations are very strange and apparently redundant, maybe I'll explain that better later).
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@Cernel Yes, I scoured the manual and it looks to me like you are correct - the fighter's landing is considered part of the combat move! It also seems like the flight path has to be declared in advance of the battle (not sure). Another thing it reinforced is that a tank must blitz in the combat movement -- it cannot make a step in combat and another in non-combat. That's not how people have been playing. Pretty cool!
The answer to your question directed to Panther is "yes", the rule book talks about that explicitly and actually that's where it was most clear to me that your other point was correct - it characterizes the fighter landing in the water as combat movement for the fighter!
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@LouisXIVXIV said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
Another thing it reinforced is that a tank must blitz in the combat movement -- it cannot make a step in combat and another in non-combat. That's not how people have been playing. Pretty cool!
This is currently already enforced, since a while.
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But probably you should reword...
I am tending to agree, but what still keeps me away from doing so is the result of
https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/16633
Here bombers with 1 and 4 movement points left were taken out. -
@Cernel In another V5-OOB test 2 hits were scored and the engine again removed bombers with 1 and 4 movement points left.
v5test_4ncm.tsvg
I was able to reproduce that scenario twice - while waiting for the AA to score three hits, what did not occur.
So - with all caution - that seems to confirm your theory about a somehow systematic "take-out error".
I will adjust the wording in the Github issue accordingly. -
@Panther Yeah, I'm pretty sure every time you gets 2 hits in that same savegame you will always lose the bomber with 1 and 4 movement points left. The engine seems messed up in a very weird way.
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@bayder said in AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions):
And the whole issue of doing all moves first...yea, that's been an issue. Another example is that if there is an enemy territory with an AA only, you can send in a ground troop to change the color of the territory and hence the ownership of the AA, then fly planes over without an AA shot. This is illegal, the color change should happen in Conduct Combat.
Actually, even if you would be able to conquer a territory with only AA guns during Combat Move, that you are actually able to do by blitzing in Classic (yet not in Revised), the AA should still fire at any aircrafts flying over, as all movement is simultaneous, thus the AA Gun is not already captured when any aircrafts fly over. This has been clarified by krieghund.
So, even if you would be actually able to "change the colour of the territory" during Combat Move, the AA Guns should still fire. While when doing moves you can decide to move some units, then move some other units, those units are always considered moving at the same time, no matter what actions you define first, as nothing ever changes at all if you move first A then B or first B then A, during the same phase.
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