AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions)

[Cernel]

@louisxivxiv Yeah, as I said, what I remember is that it is a old bug that you can do part of your moves, get the flyover casualties, and then do the rest, but should finalize your moves before resolving any combat. However, I cannot find anything about it now, and I'm not sure that might have been a LHTR clarification or what. But I agree that reading the rulebook seems to imply that at very least you should roll the flyovers after all moves are done, but it is definitely not clear.

[Cernel]

@redrum Can you let me/us know what you believe I got wrong? I wouldn't mind adding an edit in bottom line to avoid confusion.

[Panther]

@cernel said in AA revised minor bug:

@cernel And I still hope in @Panther finding something somewhere or getting it out.

Rereading the 2004 Revised rulebook I have found this (page 13):

"The air unit’s controller plots its
path using the numbered punchout
markers to indicate each space in
which combat may occur (the first
space is 1, the second 2, and so
on). Whenever an air unit
encounters enemy antiaircraft
guns, resolve combat separately in
each space along its path, starting
with the first.

Every time an antiaircraft gun in a
territory is overflown by air units,
it shoots once at each air unit that
enters. (Only one antiaircraft gun
per territory can fire, however.) If
the gun misses, the air unit may
continue its move.
Resolve all combats involving
a given air unit or group of air
units before moving onto the
next."

That shows that the flight (plan) must be completed before resolving the combat per territory.

[Cernel]

@panther Yeah, that I already knew when I asked you confirmation (and was the basis I believe the engine behaviour is at least bugged there), and I've also pasted that in a previous post of mine. But, as I read it, that doesn't clarify if you move a number of air, do the flyovers shots, then decide what to move next (the current engine behaviour, except for the extreme bug of being able to split the movement decisions on a same phase for the same units), or you do all moves and, then, resolve one after the other the air units or group of air units that did flyover. "Resolve all combats involving a given air unit or group of air units before moving onto the next." could mean either, and isn't all movement on a same phase supposed to be simultaneous?

[Panther]

@cernel Ah ok. Yes :
"All combat movement is considered to take place at the same time."

And for example a bomber flying over enemy AA-guns does a (single) move from his starting point to the territory it intends to attack. The bomber reaches its target in case it survives the (fly-over) AA-fire.

So do all air units - all of them start and move at the same time.

[bayder]

My head hurts...

[LouisXIVXIV]

:). I don't know if what I'm about to add has any value since I'm not quoting the rule book but ... I just wanted to add regarding the NC move - it's intuitive that aa wouldn't fire during noncombat. Countries are gigantic geographically so you'd expect a general fly over to be able to avoid aa protected sites, which should be few and far between. They are protecting targets, where they are unavoidable when attacking the target. If you were in retreat, you could argue things went wrong and you didn't have control over your NC flight path, hence aa firing.

[Cernel]

@louisxivxiv said in AA revised minor bug:

:). I don't know if what I'm about to add has any value since I'm not quoting the rule book but ... I just wanted to add regarding the NC move - it's intuitive that aa wouldn't fire during noncombat. Countries are gigantic geographically so you'd expect a general fly over to be able to avoid aa protected sites, which should be few and far between. They are protecting targets, where they are unavoidable when attacking the target. If you were in retreat, you could argue things went wrong and you didn't have control over your NC flight path, hence aa firing.

So, realism doesn't really apply here, and that would be true both of Combat Move and Non Combat Move flyovers alike (but I agree that the most realistic behaviour is v3, where AA fires only in the embattled territory). Regarding Non Combat Move flyovers, while the rulebook is contradictory, there is no doubt that in revised you are getting shot in Non Combat Move, just like in Combat Move (meaning any case you enter a territory with AA), as that is confirmed by a number of external items, namely the mentioned "Revised Orders" insert and the fact that the Non Combat Move flyover has been removed in LHTR and it is officially detailed as a difference from original Revised.

[bayder]

I might be stating (or restating) obvious things, but this is my understanding in summary:

1. In LHTR AA fire only in Conduct Combat phase, and is fairly well explained.
2. In OOB Revised, AA fire on Combat Move and Noncombat Move phases, in addition to Conduct Combat Phase. This is clearly documented.
3. The only real question is when in Combat Move do they fire. Is it as they are moved, 1 at a time? Is it after all movements have been laid out? Or something else? This is open to many different interpretations, any of which could be deemed correct.
4. Triplea is coded with one of the interpretations, which is not necessarily better or worse than any other...but it is what all triplea players have been used to for going on 15 years. I will also add that, as one of the official playtesters of Revised (credited in the rulebook as Cincy Gamers), we interpreted and played it exactly as coded in triplea.

[Panther]

@bayder The way TripleA Revised OOB fly-over AA-fire is coded at the moment gives the player the opportunity to ignore the principle of "all combat movement takes place at the same time" allowing to discard and/or change whatever movement plans depending on the result of AA fire. I can't see any justification for this - at least not in the rulebook.

Of course you can say TripleA Revised OOB fly-over-AA fire is coded fine: But only as long as the players don't abuse it to alter originally intended Combat Moves depending on AA-fire results. Maybe that has never happened.

[bayder]

@Panther I guess it depends on how you interpret this line from page 12: "Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing anantiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down." Is this an exception to the "all combat movement takes place at the same time" principle? What confuses this to me is that the rulebook states AA fire happens in the Combat Move phase. If the expectation was to wait until all units are plotted out, then why not conduct the AA fire in Conduct Combat?

Of course I'm sure the community would be fine with whatever definitive ruling comes out...as long as it is from an A&A authority, and not just another interpretation/opinion that's not necessarily better than the current. I'm not trying to be a contrarian, just wanting to make sure we just don't jump from interpretation to interpretation (at a big time expense of Devs as this seems complicated to code/change).

[Panther]

@bayder Actually I appreciate the discussion. I just try to understand your interpretation. Please help me again, as I intend to contact Krieghund on this issue.

What we have from the rulebook (Combat Move Rules) is:

• "In this phase, you may move as many of your units into as many hostile
  territories and sea zones as you wish. To do this, move your attacking
  units into the desired spaces on the game board; ... (page 11)"
• "All combat movement is considered to take place at the same time ... (page 11)"
• "Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down. (page12)"
• "Antiaircraft Guns: Antiaircraft guns can never move in this phase;
  they can make noncombat moves only. However, they can make a
  special attack in this phase only. Whenever an air unit moves into
  a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a
  chance to shoot it down.
  The air unit’s controller plots its path using the numbered punchout
  markers to indicate each space in which combat may occur (the first
  space is 1, the second 2, and so on). Whenever an air unit
  encounters enemy antiaircraft guns, resolve combat separately in
  each space along its path, starting with the first.
  Every time an antiaircraft gun in a territory is overflown by air units,
  it shoots once at each air unit that enters. (Only one antiaircraft gun
  per territory can fire, however.) If the gun misses, the air unit may
  continue its move.
  Resolve all combats involving a given air unit or group of air
  units before moving onto the next. (pages 12/13)"

In this given context one could argue that the owner of the air units "plots its path" for every air unit that is supposed to move during Combat Move Phase, as all combat movement takes place at the same time. Once this has been done AA fire will be resolved group by group.

You argue that regardless of any context the sentence
"Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down. (page12)"
could be interpreted as permission for combat moving units no longer moving at the same time, but giving them a certain moving order that allows to react on resulting AA fire. So some units move earlier, some move later... as you have to wait for some AA-fire-results to decide how to continue your combat moves?

Have I understood you correctly?

[bayder]

@Panther Your collection of the appropriate rules seems correct, but I'm not "arguing" anything. I do agree it is possible that the intent is to plot out all airplane moves first, having all combat moves finished, as you describe...then rolling AA group by group as you describe. It's just not clear. If that was the intent, then there is zero reason to say the AA shoot in Combat Move phase. It would all be done in Conduct Combat phase, as per LHTR...but for some reason the rulebook authors specifically indicate that AA fire in Combat Move, which leads me to believe there could be a different intent. Also the rule quote, "Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down" is again very different that *plot out all air moves before rolling each AA step by step." I do not favor the existing rule over any others, I just don't want to jump to other interpretations without authoritative clarification, that's all. (And I appreciate the discussion also!)

[Panther]

@bayder OK, thank you very much. I think the summary of different interpretations and their background is fine, then. All in all I am really glad that all the discussed confusion here has been eliminated in LHTR and especially in later games.

[Cernel]

@panther I think that's pretty much the problem. When they came out with LHTR I've the feeling it was adopted the approach to tell people to go play LHTR if they wanted a clear ruleset, and Revised OOB was left kinda there on its own. But you are not selling LHTR to the TripleA Revised purists, so that's not a solution here.

[bayder]

@Cernel LHTR is a different game. I personally like some of the rule changes, but dislike more than I like. Other people have different views...although you don't see many people playing LHTR, and a lot playing OOB Revised, so take that for what you will. I do agree he spent time clarifying things that needed clarification in LHTR, which is good.

If we get a definitive answer on AA rules for OOB Revised, I would personally prefer to play with that ruleset, whatever it is (since I am a Revised purist, and want to play by the precise OOB intended rules).

[Cernel]

@bayder said in AA revised minor bug:

If that was the intent, then there is zero reason to say the AA shoot in Combat Move phase. It would all be done in Conduct Combat phase, as per LHTR...but for some reason the rulebook authors specifically indicate that AA fire in Combat Move, which leads me to believe there could be a different intent.

The reason may simply be that since AA shoot in Non Combat Move too, and those cannot be resolved in the Conduct Combat phase (that already happened) then it would be weird to move the Combat Move flyover there if anyways you, instead, cannot move the Non Combat Move ones as well. Of course, these are all speculations, and, honestly, I think the writer of the rulebook was just being confusing, like if it was a work in progress and he changed its mind while writing it, while revising it not very well, since anyways (as already quoted multiple times) in the units section for AA they do indeed say that: "Whenever an air unit enters a territory containing an enemy antiaircraft gun, the antiaircraft gun fires during the opening fire step of combat." (that is contradicted in other places, as we said). Anyways, in the moment that even krieghund says that the rulebooks has a lot of contradictions, it is really of little use to lose a lot of time on it; either somebody with authority can make an official clarification or the matter is destined to remain opinable.

[Cernel]

@bayder I agree Revised LHTR is a different game. For example (as I argued with @Deltium), if someone would make a ToC Revised LHTR I think it should be called number 1, instead of inserting it as one of the basic Revised ones. Anyways, they are both called Revised, so you cannot say that LHTR is not Revised; it is another Revised (like, for example, there are two "Spring 1942" games).

[Panther]

So here is the official clarification. Krieghund's answer is:

"If I am understanding all of this correctly, the question is ultimately whether or not all air movement is declared before any AA shots are resolved. The answer is "yes". This is indicated in the rule you quoted that states that movement must be plotted to indicate "each space in which combat may occur". The phrase "may occur" indicates that combat (AA fire) follows movement plotting.

Bayder argued that if this is true, then there is "zero reason" to move AA fire to the combat movement phase, but there is a reason. The reason is that AA fire also occurs in the noncombat movement phase in this game. If AA fire were resolved in the combat phase, it would be over before it could be applied to noncombat movement, so it is resolved in each movement phase.

I hope this helps."

[Cernel]

@panther Very cool @Panther, I knew you would have managed (that was exactly my belief as well, but I'm no krieghund, and I definitely believe that, while it might have been mostly indicated by the rules, they are really far from clear).

So, now all relevant is mostly clarified (and my memory was right yay...), and "only" need some developers to fix it. Summing up the bugs are:

What the engine does:
It resolves the AA flyovers immediately, to the extreme of letting you do, not only part of your moves, but even only part of a move for a same unit, see the AA flyovers, then use whatever movement you didn't yet use of any units, even comprising already partially moved ones.

For Revised LHTR:
It should, instead, tally all the flyovers each air unit or group of air units is making, then resolve them, together with the eventual AA fire in the attacked territory, during the first Opening Fire step of the Conduct Combat phase for the battle.

For Revised OOB:
It should, instead, tally all the flyovers each air unit or group of air units is making, then resolve them at the very end of the phase where they happened, after all your movement is done, mainly the Combat Move phase and the Non Combat Move phase (in TripleA terms, right after you click on Done to finalize all your movements). Theorically, it should also let you decide the order in which you resolve the various groups, but this may be relevant only for a Revised OOB based custom game, as in Revised OOB you don't have any advantage in choosing such order.

Remaining item for Revised OOB:
Since in Revised OOB (but not in Revised LHTR) the remaining movement of air that took part in a battle is done in the Conduct Combat phase (currently not supported by TripleA), not in the Non Combat Move phase, I'm not entirely sure when exactly that should be resolved (after the specific battle where these air units were involved or all together at the end of the Conduct Combat phase?).

Remaining item for Revised LHTR:
Since it was clarified that the way you assign AA casualties is by rolling separately all shots for fighters and for bombers, then taking out the resulting fighters and bombers casualties (that means you will take out the ones having the lower remaining movement first, instead of this being completely random, as in the case you would roll a dice for each plane singularly), what should, then, happen in the moment you may have to tally up the AA flyovers from the preceding Combat Move phase, and some of those shots were specifically assigned to aircrafts with a bigger remaining movement left? Must you, in this case, roll them before and separately from the AA shots you would be rolling for the AA that are in the embattled territory?

@Panther Please check if I said anything wrong and, if so, I will edit it (or feel free to edit my post yourself).

At the very least I hope this will end in some agreed and confirmed tickets being tracked in GitHub, and not being once again lost overtime... If not fixed, this matter should be fully and clearly documented and tracked forever, so that at any point in the future people may know the truth.