AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions)
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@Cernel said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
@Panther Did it ever happen that, when you got hit, the bomber with 2 movement points left didn't die?...
I did not test it that often. My tests were only to prove that there was an issue.
However, good find, then!
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@Cernel said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
This has been officially clarified you (and me) were right (tho I was not sure, because I think the rules were not that clear). Of course, that is true the exact same way both for Combat and Non Combat Movement. The only other thing here is the fact that in v2 OOB air units that participated in combat return immediately after combat, so you roll those before the ones that are just non combat moving.
That's interesting! Yes, after combat movement but also during non-combat, which I hadn't fully appreciated.
But that last part is a total surprise - the idea is that aircraft that engaged in combat have declared their non-combat movement in the combat movement phase? That's a big statement.
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@LouisXIVXIV Yeah, Revised/v2 OOB (but not LHTR) is the only game in which you are never allowed to move a same unit both in combat and non combat movement.
What I understand is that first you resolve all battles, then you move to safety your attacking aeroplanes, after all battles are done (so, it's not like retreat, that it is decided at the end of each battle, possibly before starting the next one), which implies you sort of have a special non combat movement for fighting aeroplanes, happening before the regular non combat movement phase, if @Panther can confirm this.
The other thing I wonder, @Panther, is if I can move immediately after combat fighters to empty sea zones, as long as I can move enough carriers to those sea zones in the subsequent non combat movement phase (I believe I can, but just want to be sure).
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@Panther said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
@Cernel said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
@Panther Did it ever happen that, when you got hit, the bomber with 2 movement points left didn't die?...
I did not test it that often. My tests were only to prove that there was an issue.
However, good find, then!
Right, I didn't mean that you have to sort out exactly how it is failing to work. But probably you should reword the "attacker cannot choose casualties (casualty apparently is taken out on a random basis), tested with factory-built-in AA gun against a bunch of bombers)", removing the mention about it being apparently random (as it doesn't appear random at all, to me). Point is that I'm almost sure we have two totally different bugs, one for v2 to v4 and the other one for v5/Global (not sure why not v1 too, if not; the properties for AA gun randomizations are very strange and apparently redundant, maybe I'll explain that better later).
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@Cernel Yes, I scoured the manual and it looks to me like you are correct - the fighter's landing is considered part of the combat move! It also seems like the flight path has to be declared in advance of the battle (not sure). Another thing it reinforced is that a tank must blitz in the combat movement -- it cannot make a step in combat and another in non-combat. That's not how people have been playing. Pretty cool!
The answer to your question directed to Panther is "yes", the rule book talks about that explicitly and actually that's where it was most clear to me that your other point was correct - it characterizes the fighter landing in the water as combat movement for the fighter!
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@LouisXIVXIV said in [Open] AA revised bug (AA-fire/casualty selection issues):
Another thing it reinforced is that a tank must blitz in the combat movement -- it cannot make a step in combat and another in non-combat. That's not how people have been playing. Pretty cool!
This is currently already enforced, since a while.
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But probably you should reword...
I am tending to agree, but what still keeps me away from doing so is the result of
https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/16633
Here bombers with 1 and 4 movement points left were taken out. -
@Cernel In another V5-OOB test 2 hits were scored and the engine again removed bombers with 1 and 4 movement points left.
v5test_4ncm.tsvg
I was able to reproduce that scenario twice - while waiting for the AA to score three hits, what did not occur.
So - with all caution - that seems to confirm your theory about a somehow systematic "take-out error".
I will adjust the wording in the Github issue accordingly. -
@Panther Yeah, I'm pretty sure every time you gets 2 hits in that same savegame you will always lose the bomber with 1 and 4 movement points left. The engine seems messed up in a very weird way.
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@bayder said in AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions):
And the whole issue of doing all moves first...yea, that's been an issue. Another example is that if there is an enemy territory with an AA only, you can send in a ground troop to change the color of the territory and hence the ownership of the AA, then fly planes over without an AA shot. This is illegal, the color change should happen in Conduct Combat.
Actually, even if you would be able to conquer a territory with only AA guns during Combat Move, that you are actually able to do by blitzing in Classic (yet not in Revised), the AA should still fire at any aircrafts flying over, as all movement is simultaneous, thus the AA Gun is not already captured when any aircrafts fly over. This has been clarified by krieghund.
So, even if you would be actually able to "change the colour of the territory" during Combat Move, the AA Guns should still fire. While when doing moves you can decide to move some units, then move some other units, those units are always considered moving at the same time, no matter what actions you define first, as nothing ever changes at all if you move first A then B or first B then A, during the same phase.
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@bayder said in AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions):
There is still zero reason for the rules to indicate that AA fire should occur in the Combat Move phase. The rules could easily state that AA fire occurs in Conduct Combat and Noncombat Move phases only. If this had been done, then there would be no questions regarding this rule.
What I understand is that here you believe that Revised OOB and LHTR work the same way, for flyovers during the Combat Move phase, as there would be no difference between saying that they are resolved at the end of the Combat Move phase or saying that they are resolved during the Conduct Combat phase, but the second formulation being clearer.
What I understand, instead, is that, by moving the AA fly over resolution from Combat Move to Conduct Combat, LHTR makes a practically relevant behaviour change, as in Revised OOB you would know the results of all Combat Move fly-overs before resolving any battles, as they already happened in a previous phase, while in Revised LHTR you know then only for the units involved in the current battle, and all the already resolved ones.
For example:
I have a fighter that flies over an AA gun in a territory "A", then flies over an AA gun in a territory "B", then end movement in a territory "C" (to take part in a battle in there).
I also have another fighter that flies over an AA gun in a territory "A" (the same territory that the other fighter is flying over too), then flies over an AA gun in a territory "D", then end movement in a territory "E" (to take part in a battle in there).
In Revised OOB, you would resolve the fly overs for:
- The first fighter in "A"
- The first fighter in "B"
- The second fighter in "A"
- The second fighter in "D"
In only one of the following only two possible orders, at your discretion:
- 1A, 1B, 2A, 2D
- 2A, 2D, 1A, 1B
Then, after resolving all fly overs, you would resolve the battles (with all other units involved in the same battle), comprising, at this point, any battle AA fire, if an AA gun is present in the embattled territory, for:
- The first fighter in "C", if surviving the fly overs
- The second fighter in "E", if surviving the fly overs
Assuming both fly overs miss, then, during Conduct Combat, either first resolving the "C" battle or first the "E" one, then the other one, at your discretion, no matter if you previously resolved the fly overs for the first fighter (that is now in "C") or the second one (that is now in "E") (of course, if the a fighter is shot down during fly over and was the only attacking unit, then there is no battle, instead).
Consequently, in case all fly overs miss, considering Combat Move and Conduct Combat together, you would have all and only the following possible resolution sequences, across the two phases:
- 1A, 1B, 2A, 2D, C, E
- 2A, 2D, 1A, 1B, C, E
- 1A, 1B, 2A, 2D, E, C
- 2A, 2D, 1A, 1B, E, C
(where, for example, "1A, 1B, 2A, 2D, C, E" literally means "at the end of combat move, resolving the flyover in A for the first fighter, then resolving the fly over in B for the first fighter, then resolving the fly over in A for the second fighter, then resolving the fly over in D for the second fighter, then, during Conduct Combat, resolving the battle in C, then resolving the battle in E")
In Revised LHTR, instead, during the Conduct Combat phase, fly-overs are all integrated as part of the specific battles where the flying over units are heading to, so you only decide whether first to make the battle in "C" or first to make the battle in "E", and, in this case, you cannot even decide in what order to resolve the fly overs, for each battle, since having only 1 fighter involved in any, for each one, thus being restricted to resolving all fly overs, by their zones movement sequence for the same unit, before resolving the battle that unit may be part of (if surviving all fly overs).
Meaning you can only resolve all fly overs and all battles as "1 then 2" or "2 then 1", where 1 and 2 are the following sequences:
1- Making the battle in "C", you first resolve the fly over for the first fighter in "A", then (if surviving) resolve the fly over for the first fighter in "B", then resolve the rest of the battle in "C", with the first fighter participating, and possibly being hit by an AA gun in the embattled territory, if surviving both fly overs.
2- Making the battle in "E", you first resolve the fly over for the second fighter in "A", then (if surviving) resolve the fly over for the second fighter in "D", then resolve the rest of the battle in "E", with the first fighter participating, and possibly being hit by an AA gun in the embattled territory, if surviving both fly overs.Meaning that you have only the option of resolving them in any one of only the following two sequences:
- 1A, 1B, C, 2A, 2D, E
- 2A, 2D, E, 1A, 1B, C
(where, for example, "1A, 1B, C, 2A, 2D, E" literally means "resolving the flyover in A for the first fighter, then resolving the fly over in B for the first fighter, then resolving the battle in C, then resolving the fly over in A for the second fighter, then resolving the fly over in D for the second fighter, then resolving the battle in E")
The substantial difference being that, as said, in Revised OOB you know all fly over results, for Combat Movement, before resolving any battles, but you never know battle outcomes before resolving any fly overs, while in Revised LHTR, you cannot know all fly over results before resolving any battles (unless only one battle has any fly overs and you resolve that battle first, but, even in this case, the flyovers are technically part of the battle itself, not happening before it), but you may have or decide to resolve battles before fly overs, which is going to be actually inevitable if you have more than one battle with fly overs or if the battle with the fly overs is also an amphibious assault from an hostile sea zone, meaning, in the example, that, if you decide first to resolve the battle in "C", you have to do so without knowing the fly over results for the second fighter, until after that battle is over, while, if you decide first to resolve the battle in "E", you have to do so without knowing the fly over results for the first fighter, until after that battle is over.
However, I have to say I'm not sure of what I'm saying, so please @Panther check this all out, and let me know if my understanding is fully correct.
Of course, other than what above, if all correct, the only other difference for Revised OOB, over Revised LHTR, is that, in Revised OOB, you practically have the exactly same fly over resolutions for Non Combat Move, as well, to be resolved the exactly same way as the ones happening during Combat Move, except only that you must resolve those of air units coming back from battles before plotting any other, or rather actual, non combat movements, thus any other fly overs, this being factually realized by having the fly overs for air units that participated in battles happening during the Conduct Combat phase (but, in practice, they are all non combat movements too, merely anticipated during the Conduct Combat phase), but only after all battles have been resolved. In practice, the whole system is exactly like having two Non Combat Move phases, after Conduct Combat, that work under exactly the same rules except only that, in the first one, you can only move air units that took part in battles (and must move them, if having any possible landing spots, possibly plotting carrier movements happening in the next phase), while, in the second one, you can move anything else, and having the fly overs resolved at the end of each of these two Non Combat Move phases, under the same dynamics as when resolving them at the end of the Combat Move phase.
