Over the Top- new WWI mod
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Hi ! I just played the map against the AI and noticed that it does not seem to take trenches into account in its calculations, leading it to make suicidal attacks that would be reasonable if no defending trenches were present. It ruins the map when playing against the AI by giving to the human player a big advantage. I know that trenches must be added manually in the battle calculator by the human player but the AI does not seem to do it on its side.
The AI does not seem to know how to use long range ammunitions. If its ammunition-spawning ships were already moved to battle before they spawn then fine they will be used anyway, but if not, it will just keep them where they spawned instead of using them to attack something. This gives a big advantage to the human player on the sea.
Otherwise I enjoyed the new mechanisms like trains and long range ammunitions. It's a pity that research to unlock heavy artillery is so expensive, it makes those two new interesting units difficult to try...
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@TankTop Thank you so much for trying it out! Yes, unfortunately, due to the novel elements of the game, AI is pretty much broken. I'm not sure how to solve that since in my/our mind the ranged munitions and trenches are my favorite mechanics in the game and we don't want to sacrifice them to get the AI playable.
Heavy artillery are so powerful (especially since they unlock rail guns and emplaced heavy artillery) we felt they needed to be a hefty investment to not be overpowered. Feel free to bump up the default bid amounts if you want a faction to have a shot at having that tech at the start of the game.
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@djabwana In case you are unaware, there is a git issue
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@beelee Thank you! This is only possible if someone uses edit mode to put in the wrong kind of trench and then there's a battle. Trenches-If-Defended are only there for the battle calculator, since normal/real trenches are capturable during combat move and thus don't appear in the calculator (even though they will participate in the combat later)
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@djabwana @GenerationKILL Any possibility to reconsidering some of the unit images? As much as I like the unit images, I would want to see slightly altered versions of some of them.
For example I would definitely prefer infantries that points their gun to a direction parallel to the floor as much as possible like Russian (my favourite infantry image on TripleA) and American ones while standing shooting/assault position.
I would prefer to see artilleries with the same aspect.
Also I would prefer all nations having their state flags. The Ottoman flag was actually different than the Republic of Turkey's flag. Though never standardized in the Ottoman era as much as I know but
Ottoman Flag
Turkey flag
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What are the rules on placing bid units on this map? The default map options seem to include a fair bit of 'bid' placed units for many of the central powers. I can't find anything in the rules covering what limits there are, if any, on what you can place where. In particular, is there a limit of like one, or a few, per territory? Or can one drop massed infantry all in one spot?
Since this seems to be an intentional map feature for the start; rather than a manual bid to correct map balanced, I'm not sure what the intent is on placement rules.
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@zlefin said in Over the Top- new WWI mod:
What are the rules on placing bid units on this map?
As in every case (beside "those" game which have rule-books) nothing user-enforced is detailed in notes, the rules are what the program does.
can one drop massed infantry all in one spot?
Yes: one can can bid full infantry and place them all in one territory.
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Some people have been playing this lately, and stated they wanted to contact the mapmaker, but they aren't on this forum, anyone know how to contact the mapmaker? Or if they themself show up, that'd work too ofc
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yea I think there on github. I'll try and find there info brb
Edit
yea he's @jdimeo Idk how to contact him directly, so i just made a issue and pinged him. Hopefully he'll see ithttps://github.com/triplea-maps/over_the_top
Edit 2
His last commit was less than a month ago so he's still around anyway -
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@djabwana said in Over the Top- new WWI mod:
We're actually putting the finishing touches on a "Version 2" and are about to publish it.
:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:
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over the top mod.tsvg @djabwana I am actually the guy who has been promoting it Panzerman and I made some house rules and a mod, I will send both for your consideration,[0_1748872526535_over the top house rules.docx](Uploading 100%)
Over the Top House Rules mod indicates changes. Austria does not have to be defeated first. Ideally, infantry should defend at a 2.
USA factory changes back to America once enters war so that you can build planes. If that area is occupied USA may place one plane in Paris instead. USA may not attack German ships until they join but may transport troops however Germany can sink but cannot be escorted by USA destroyers.
Shelling restrictions and at starting entrenched coastal guns:
A unit shelling must stop its movement. France and Russia may pick where they want their starting port coastal gun. Only coastal shelling of Shipyards is allowed plus you can target the one costal artillery. This means the defender has to pick the one coastal artillery excluding bunkers. Shells are also limited per number of units amphibiously or coast invading units, but you can use leftover to shell other targets. There are no free shots from entrenched gun against land and only 2 shells for naval, but you cannot shell subs even with a destroyer. Only 1 entrenched gun at sea ports are considered coastal except the starting Ottoman one. Rail guns cannot shell naval targets. You cannot shell mines unless you have at least one ship or sub that investigates.
Air & Strategic raids of rail, airfield and factories or combination of both
Air superiority involves the number of attacking and defending air units. The first hits count towards planes and zeps per number of fighters on each side or if you play dice, it’s easy to see. You may pick a lower value zep over a fighter. At least one infantry is required to attack with artillery so you can have 1 guy and 20 artilleries however you can conquer an empty territory with artillery alone or if you are rescuing you capital.
Fighters and zeps only support artillery, not infantry, so you can only attack if you have artillery piece but this is not requirement with bomber. Or you could have one plane per artillery, player pick. You could also play like this with the artillery see below
Non-armored trains are considered captured and spoils of war. AA guns if alone get a one defense so edit them into a man. However, all defending air units including fighters, if caught alone, with defending units, get to escape up to range if attacking air is not in the mix. Planes do not get to defend bunkers alone; the bunker must have a land unit and the bunkers are considered captured.
When heavy bomber is achieved also put game on LL. The best way to do strategic raids is use Sweden and Norway territories to set this up and announce which raid you are doing. Edit in the attacking and defending targets both players intend to use including AA gun and factory before the 2nd combat phase. Then you will have to use edit move each plane and say if you want to bomb or attack. Retreat after one round and edit in the results including factory damage. You only have to edit out defending fighters if the same area is getting attacked and remember not the use the attacking planes twice. Question must be asked if defending player wants to scramble to bombing of factory or rail but if attacking airfield player has no choice.
The whole rail thing is very odd for instance, you can attack trains with fighters but the game will not let you defend them even with edit. So you could play that any defending fighters in defending areas can be used to defend rail but if area being simultaneously attacked a decision must be made. You will have to use the set up mentioned above for attacking defending planes and then regular play for attacking the rail and you can pick an unarmed trains first.
Sea shit
Submarines are picked last as casualties for both attacking and defending unless destroyers are involved. The easiest way to do this is once the game system tells you that you can submerge you must state picking Submarines last. In defending Submarines only situations, freighters, bombers, subs, and zeps and fighters can sink subs but you have to have a destroyer of course except for other subs. They get a one round and must submerge after first round even with paired with destroyer. You don’t have to submerge subs if attacker has no more destroyers just pick subs last.
If a destroyer or Freighters is not present, a free, 1 round only Sub sneak-attack is allowed. This means no hits from all the other ships count but you may edit pick a trannie as your casualty if applicable.
Troop-Transports, not Freighters, are only sunk per attacking ship or air so no more one sub killing 20 Troop-Transports. Edit surviving boats back into the same sea zone. They have to be picked last for defense unless attacking subs AND AIR ARE still in the mix. You may not bring them into battle unless beach landing plus it does not block so edit move past them. Freighters do block. Likewise unarmed trains must be picked last.
Harbor-Defenses do not defend against air units so edit them out if attacking with air only or if a combination of both, select naval units first as casualties. Harbor-Defenses block Submarine movement.Other belligerents
Ottomans may only attack Russia and vice versa the first round but may combine fleets. Romania joins Russia turn 3 Bulgaria joins Germany turn 2. Upon Russia’s second round, the amount of Hungarian troops that were there, turn Russian with factory so you can buy for them and or reinforce but starts 3rd. Make sure all Austrian troops are out there by round 2.
Italy joins Allies turn 2 but CAN’T can be reinforced by France until 2nd round. If France combines fleet with Italy consider sz 30 still neutral, can’t be attacked or attack out of.
Greece remains neutral unless the Allies land a ground unit there starting turn 3. Additionally, the sea zones on both sides must be cleared. It turns French with Factory and starting game units that were British but make them French.
Arab uprising happens British Commonwealth round 3; 2 Entrenchments, 2 Cavalry and 1 Field-Artillery all BCW each in Hejaz, Al-Hawa and Oman. Additionally, a Factory in Oman. The Ottoman infantry there must be edited moved away to adjacent territory. The factory in Oman is removed is once conquered by and the brits can’t make ships. The commies do not get to share Russian tech. -
@schulz
Turkey today -
@panzerman all of this looks GREAT! However, the formatting came through kind of messed up so I'm having a hard time reading it. Were you trying to attach a document?
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@panzerman
Hello I'm Danny. I'm the designer and visual artist of the map. My buddy @djabwana is the programmer and we in the midst of wrapping up Version 2. It includes several map changes as well as an extensive overhaul in aesthetics. We've been play testing it for a few months and we believe it's about as balanced as it will get. I have been very eager to wrap the project up so we can move on to newer projects (however many years that may take). But I appreciate that our game has taken some attention by fellow WWI enthusiast. As for the old version it's basically in the recycle bin at this point, so if anyone would like to bring new house rules or changes then it is best to leave it for V2 as that will be the official version. I think that our final iteration has ironed out all the kinks and will provide players with a much better gameplay.We have had a nice base set of players that we've invited over the years to playtest our game but we are always looking for more. I know that not everyone has the advantage of including human players for triplea, but this game is basically meant for human interaction and not AI. It's unfortunate but that's how it is. The AI does not operate well with our games concepts especially with the inclusion of trains and munitions and dual attacking rounds. The ideal player count for this game is 5. Three for Triple Entente and two for central powers.
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@generationkill well my ideas house rules and mod can be used for new game, its historical and has good unit functions like battleships not hunting down battleships etc. I submitted them. I have similar house rules for tww as well.
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@djabwana
Over the Top House Rules mod indicates changes. Austria does not have to be defeated first. Ideally, infantry should defend at a 2.
USA factory changes back to America once enters war so that you can build planes. If that area is occupied USA may place one plane in Paris instead. USA may not attack German ships until they join but may transport troops however Germany can sink but cannot be escorted by USA destroyers.
Shelling restrictions and at starting entrenched coastal guns:
A unit shelling must stop its movement. France and Russia may pick where they want their starting port coastal gun. Only coastal shelling of Shipyards is allowed plus you can target the one costal artillery. This means the defender has to pick the one coastal artillery excluding bunkers. Shells are also limited per number of units amphibiously or coast invading units, but you can use leftover to shell other targets. There are no free shots from entrenched gun against land and only 2 shells for naval, but you cannot shell subs even with a destroyer. Only 1 entrenched gun at sea ports are considered coastal except the starting Ottoman one. Rail guns cannot shell naval targets. You cannot shell mines unless you have at least one ship or sub that investigates.
Air & Strategic raids of rail, airfield and factories or combination of both
Air superiority involves the number of attacking and defending air units. The first hits count towards planes and zeps per number of fighters on each side or if you play dice, it’s easy to see. You may pick a lower value zep over a fighter. At least one infantry is required to attack with artillery so you can have 1 guy and 20 artilleries however you can conquer an empty territory with artillery alone or if you are rescuing you capital.
Fighters and zeps only support artillery, not infantry, so you can only attack if you have artillery piece but this is not requirement with bomber. Or you could have one plane per artillery, player pick. You could also play like this with the artillery see below
Non-armored trains are considered captured and spoils of war. AA guns if alone get a one defense so edit them into a man. However, all defending air units including fighters, if caught alone, with defending units, get to escape up to range if attacking air is not in the mix. Planes do not get to defend bunkers alone; the bunker must have a land unit and the bunkers are considered captured.
When heavy bomber is achieved also put game on LL. The best way to do strategic raids is use Sweden and Norway territories to set this up and announce which raid you are doing. Edit in the attacking and defending targets both players intend to use including AA gun and factory before the 2nd combat phase. Then you will have to use edit move each plane and say if you want to bomb or attack. Retreat after one round and edit in the results including factory damage. You only have to edit out defending fighters if the same area is getting attacked and remember not the use the attacking planes twice. Question must be asked if defending player wants to scramble to bombing of factory or rail but if attacking airfield player has no choice.
The whole rail thing is very odd for instance, you can attack trains with fighters but the game will not let you defend them even with edit. So you could play that any defending fighters in defending areas can be used to defend rail but if area being simultaneously attacked a decision must be made. You will have to use the set up mentioned above for attacking defending planes and then regular play for attacking the rail and you can pick an unarmed trains first.
Sea shit
Submarines are picked last as casualties for both attacking and defending unless destroyers are involved. The easiest way to do this is once the game system tells you that you can submerge you must state picking Submarines last. In defending Submarines only situations, freighters, bombers, subs, and zeps and fighters can sink subs but you have to have a destroyer of course except for other subs. They get a one round and must submerge after first round even with paired with destroyer. You don’t have to submerge subs if attacker has no more destroyers just pick subs last.
If a destroyer or Freighters is not present, a free, 1 round only Sub sneak-attack is allowed. This means no hits from all the other ships count but you may edit pick a trannie as your casualty if applicable.
Troop-Transports, not Freighters, are only sunk per attacking ship or air so no more one sub killing 20 Troop-Transports. Edit surviving boats back into the same sea zone. They have to be picked last for defense unless attacking subs AND AIR ARE still in the mix. You may not bring them into battle unless beach landing plus it does not block so edit move past them. Freighters do block. Likewise unarmed trains must be picked last.
Harbor-Defenses do not defend against air units so edit them out if attacking with air only or if a combination of both, select naval units first as casualties. Harbor-Defenses block Submarine movement.Other belligerents
Ottomans may only attack Russia and vice versa the first round but may combine fleets. Romania joins Russia turn 3 Bulgaria joins Germany turn 2. Upon Russia’s second round, the amount of Hungarian troops that were there, turn Russian with factory so you can buy for them and or reinforce but starts 3rd. Make sure all Austrian troops are out there by round 2.
Italy joins Allies turn 2 but CAN’T can be reinforced by France until 2nd round. If France combines fleet with Italy consider sz 30 still neutral, can’t be attacked or attack out of.
Greece remains neutral unless the Allies land a ground unit there starting turn 3. Additionally, the sea zones on both sides must be cleared. It turns French with Factory and starting game units that were British but make them French.
Arab uprising happens British Commonwealth round 3; 2 Entrenchments, 2 Cavalry and 1 Field-Artillery all BCW each in Hejaz, Al-Hawa and Oman. Additionally, a Factory in Oman. The Ottoman infantry there must be edited moved away to adjacent territory. The factory in Oman is removed is once conquered by and the brits can’t make ships. The commies do not get to share Russian tech. -
@djabwana one request outside of my house rules, don't make the railroad spots harder to find then the G spot giggidy. Hopefully my house rules have inspired you to make it more historical.
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We have just launched version 2.0 and it is now available for download!
@panzerman I think you have some great ideas but I mostly defer to @GenerationKILL on the historical rules and unit design. We did fix the sub rules and remove AA units altogether, as well as moving the rail zones to the "top" of the map so they are more easily selectable - I agree that selecting rail zones and the units in them is really tricky! Also, we added Lawrence of Ariabia and Bedouins for the Arab uprising.
Commies sharing Russia tech was an accident at first, but then we really liked it, because as the revolutionaries move closer to the capital, they are finding and using Russian units..
If there are any house rules that you have listed that are really annoying to implement with edit mode and you would love to have them just be base rules, please make an issue here: https://github.com/triplea-maps/over_the_top/issues/new and we'll see if we can integrate it into a future version.
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Awesome !
I suggest updating the yaml to version 3 and do a PR. I will ping the thread at the A&A site with this.
Well done
Edit
Wow ! The Ocean looks Way Cool !
Western Front looks different too
You might want to list all the changes so there easy to see. I see you have them listed in the changelog but maybe a more in depth would be good for promo thread ?
Edit
Here the A&A thread if you want to promote it there as well
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/36205/over-the-top/2?_=1750731694330Once again well done
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