⭕ Middle Earth 3rd Age - Official Thread

TheDog

@lawabidinwalrus
The map folder is at the wrong level.

Cut the contents of middle_earth_3rd_age to
middle_earth_3rd_age-005 folder

then check that middle_earth_3rd_age folder is empty then delete it

then rename middle_earth_3rd_age-005 folder to middle_earth_3rd_age

Run TripleA and enjoy!

LawAbidinWalrus

@thedog That did the trick thank you very much for all the help.

Paolo Carrera

@thedog said in Middle Earth 3rd Age - Official Thread:

middle_earth_3rd_age-005

I know this is a sort of draft map. I like upkeep system because it forces a more strategic play and sufficiently simulate a sort of logistics in war.
I've just downloaded the map and started first game with Dwarves at default HardAI.
Before my first turn, yet lost West&East Iron Hills (5PUs), isolated from Erebor. A single Pikemen+Raven in Halls of Gror.
In the second turn HoGror surrounded, overwhelmed and virtually useless.
I think Ruhn has too much units in the first turn and/or too much close to Dwarves and IronHills PUs. Ruhn can collect PUs too much quickly and vastly in first 2-3 turns without loosing a single unit.
I don't know if this is a sort of balancing for the early-mid game, but being overwhelmed from West (angmar) to East (Ruhn) plus PU units upkeep, Dwarves becomes quite irrilevant (playable?) since the beginning, in my opinion.
My halberdies can't move to mountains, despite they are mountaneers, is that a bug?

[EDIT]
Why chariots/wagons units have their full power also in hills regions here and in BoArda? In particular charge ability.
If we consider standard definition of hills (up to 5-600 metres above sea level) chariots become quite ineffective, unless we assume every battle takes place on some sort of road.
I don't remember Ancient Romans use chariots on hills in Italy nor Mecedonians in northern Greece. They used mounted units. Not only mountains but also hills slopes should make chariots quite ineffective, unless they have tracks.

TheDog

@paolo-carrera

Thanks for giving the map a go.

You need to defend Halls of Gror.

My halberdies can't move to mountains, despite they are mountaneers, is that a bug?
Yes thats a bug, thanks, I will fix it soon.

The Ancient Britain's when the Romans invaded Britain used lots of light chariots and England does have a lot of hills. That said yes a chariot is/was an ineffective weapon, the main reason for chariots was that horses were weak and could not be ridden into battle/long distance.

But for this game it is also to give the Rhun a unique unit. It could be argued that charioteers dismount to fight and have better equipment and being noble are better motivated.

For balance they are better than they should be

TheDog

@Paolo-Carrera

Below is end of turn 3. I think you need to get used to the map and learn its ways.

I lost Dain Halls but my allies retook for me, but the Halls of Gror are secure. Im about to go on the attach to the south.

Dwarves should buy a Wall most turns, especially where they are under attack.

Paolo Carrera

@thedog
np, ok for fix.
Respect for Britain hills! But here on the continent, here in Italy, where we have Alps, hills are up to 4-500-600 m above sea, as they are usually considered in Geography. Britain hills are usually considered part of the lower extreme of standard hills.
Between 400 and 600 m above the sea, use of chariots was de facto impossible and Romans never used chariots in italian or greek hills. JRR in WWI experienced hills on the continent.
Maybe setting at least charge not possible in hills terrain could be more correct.
Please, I don't want to start a dispute, my point was for a better realism and a more plausible gameplay.

Your setting is different vs BoA, where at north things are more balanced in my opinion.
Sure, I need to get used to the map. I've played BoA as Dwarves my first 5 games where taking back territories from Ruhn was not a rebus.
BoA and ME3A have different starting settings for Dwarves and Northmen in that area, I think BoA in this case is more balanced and playable for a Dwarven player.

-- image ME3A

-- image BoA

There is 1 more unit at Erebor and 1 more Northmen in Kingdom of Dale.
If I have (no choice) to defend, 1 more pikemen is better than a Raven at Gror.
There is 1 wall less at Gror, 1 Raven less at Erebor than BoA, 1 Northmen less at Kingdom of Dale, 1 less Northmen unit at Esgaroth and Dale.
Even -1 Dragon at north, defend-and-counterattack with Northmen aid is very challenging and not very playable in the very early stage of the game.
Mine are only suggestions for a more balanced and enjoyable game far any kind of users. Free to take in consideration!

TheDog

@paolo-carrera
Lets chat more after you have had a few more games, as it feels and play differently to BfA.

Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated.

Paolo Carrera

@thedog
Game number 6 on this map playing as Dwarves. It's not take an expert player to see that some of the settings, clearly a draft, broken the balance of the original map.
The tricky balance of ME based maps is broken in this one. And I'm quite confident of what I say about turn based war games, et similia.
I had some more feedbacks to give on this map, but I don't see you really appreciate.
I wish you good work.
CU

TheDog

@paolo-carrera
I would appreciate more feedback. My testing is just me and the AIs, so not
extensive.
Another players sense of balance and perspective is what this map needs.

You have already given your first impressions, do they still hold after playing a few games?

TheDog

Latest version 010 ready for download from 1st page 1st post

Fix (thanks to @Paolo-Carrera for finding this)
Dwarf - dwarven_halberdier is a mountaineer as it should have been.

.
Changes (thanks to Paolo-Carrera for the suggestions)

Dwarf - Halls of Gror units now the same as Battle for Arda
Rhun - chariot and wain_rider_chieftain, both suffer -1 on attack & defence in hills

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Link to 1st post that has the download link
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/3729/middle-earth-3rd-age-official-thread

@Paolo-Carrera

Chowdler

@thedog Thank you so much for your work on this map. It's consumed my life for the past week.

Not certain if it's all faction's Spiders: Dol Guldur's spiders have the mountaineer tag, but are unable to actually enter mountains. That might be fine; Spiders are incredibly overpowered. Having 2 HP, 3 movement, plus the web debuff, for 11PUs is insane. They might be OK with a recruit limit and 2 movement, and giving dwarves a chance by allowing them to hide in the mountains - currently, it seems like stacking Spiders has no downside.

Tharbad seems to be marked as Player Important, which is causing Isengard to stack it. By round 4 of every game, Isengard is losing hard to Rohan, and yet still producing and pushing out of Tharbad as long as they can. It makes playing Rohan or Lorien trivial, and playing Orcs or Mordor a bit frustrating. I appreciate you're trying to herd cats with trying to deal with AI players, but that might be worth taking a look at.

TheDog

@chowdler
Welcome to the forums and your 1st post!
Thanks for engaging.

Yes Spiders should cost about 20 thanks will update soon.

Tharbad, I will have to test, so yes worth a look, again thanks.

ps. I like your analogy trying to herd cats with trying to deal with AI

Chowdler

@thedog after spending more time with other factions, it does feel like Isengard has a very weak roster. Their leadership is reliant on Crebain, which are 1 health fliers, making them prone to getting picked off with AA, recruit capped, and unable to defend a stack that just took a territory. Both Uruk-hai feel understatted for the cost. And given their position, having their fodder unit as the only mountaineer makes it very difficult to trade effectively with Lothlorien, and deal with the Rivendell/Freefolk threat that inevitably kicks the door down through Tharbad.

I think the faction might feel better with these changes:

Drop Uruk-hai pike to 5 cost. Remove half-orcs. Given how much stronger attacking is against defending, especially for Isengard (no first strike capabilities in the roster, warg charge is only on attack, Crebain leadership on a stack is typically missing except when turtling, spear is not that effective of a debuff since cav still get a charge) defensive stats are not nearly as useful as attacking stats. Given many archer units are 4 IPCs for 3 first strike defense, the unit, I think, would be fine with at 5 IPCs.
Give the other Uruk-hai mountaineer.
Give Crebain 2 HP, boost their cost to 10. That might seem thematically odd, given they are crows. But it's explainable by them being a swarm of small animals; taking a volley of arrows takes out half of them, but destroying the whole swarm would take quite a bit of effort.

TheDog

@Chowdler
Thanks for your ideas above, they are under consideration. Hopefully your 1st post is addressed below.

TheDog

Latest version 015 ready for download from 1st page 1st post

Spider 20pu was 11pu, vastly underpointed (thanks @chowdler)
Spider can now enter mountains (thanks chowdler)
Tharbad now not of Player interest, so AI will focus less on it (thanks chowdler)
Saruman added warg_scout unit (thanks chowdler for the idea of another Mountaineer unit)
Gondor Minas Tirith ancient_wall now 4, was 3, needed to rebalance because of above

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Link to 1st post that has the download link
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/3729/middle-earth-3rd-age-official-thread