Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread

TheDog

Re: Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread

@Frostion
I only play as one race at a time.

For resources food is scarce, but later in the game you have too much. Thats is because you are using your other resources to buy other cool stuff. So on balance it works fine as is.

For those players who go beyond say 25 turns they will have excess XP, so a suicide (one use) unit/spell with an XP costs might be worth considering.

Undead
WoW-U25.tsvg

Tauren
WoW-T27.tsvg

Currently playing Trolls only turn 6 so far.
WoW-TR-06.tsvg

I will try the skeletons later.

TheDog

@Trevan
Yes I tried to report it to Git Hub, it would not let me. Do I need a Git Hub account to post there?

TheDog

@LaFayette

Thanks, it much more stable.

TheDog

@Frostion & @avshar
Well that was quicker than I thought.

Yes I can create Skeletons but only with Sevis at a Factory.

TheDog

@Frostion
The Troll hero cannot use the movement speed of 3 from the Balloon in Plaguewood, see turn 10.

This might be due to the Totem?

WoW-TR-10.tsvg

TheDog

Dwarf turn 20
This should be reproducible as it crashed again for me.

2.1.20365: RemoveUnits#perform:44 - IllegalStateException

Log Message

Remote method call exception: Not all units present in:Thandol Strait. Trying to remove:[Flying-Machine owned by Dwarves, Troopship owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls] present:[Fish owned by Trolls, Troopship owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Flying-Machine owned by Dwarves, Flying-Machine owned by Dwarves]

TripleA Version

2.1.20365

Java Version

11.0.6

Operating System

Windows 10

Stack Trace

java.lang.IllegalStateException: Not all units present in:Thandol Strait.  Trying to remove:[Flying-Machine owned by Dwarves, Troopship owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls] present:[Fish owned by Trolls, Troopship owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Footmen owned by Trolls, Flying-Machine owned by Dwarves, Flying-Machine owned by Dwarves]
	at games.strategy.engine.data.changefactory.RemoveUnits.perform(RemoveUnits.java:44)
	at games.strategy.engine.data.GameData.performChange(GameData.java:433)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame$1.gameDataChanged(ServerGame.java:92)
	at jdk.internal.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor42.invoke(Unknown Source)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.java:43)
	at java.base/java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:566)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.EndPoint.invokeSingle(EndPoint.java:136)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.EndPoint.lambda$invokeMultiple$0(EndPoint.java:120)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.ReferencePipeline$3$1.accept(ReferencePipeline.java:195)
	at java.base/java.util.Spliterators$ArraySpliterator.forEachRemaining(Spliterators.java:948)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.AbstractPipeline.copyInto(AbstractPipeline.java:484)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.AbstractPipeline.wrapAndCopyInto(AbstractPipeline.java:474)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.ReduceOps$ReduceOp.evaluateSequential(ReduceOps.java:913)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.AbstractPipeline.evaluate(AbstractPipeline.java:234)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.ReferencePipeline.collect(ReferencePipeline.java:578)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.EndPoint.invokeMultiple(EndPoint.java:121)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.EndPoint.invokeLocal(EndPoint.java:111)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.UnifiedMessenger.invoke(UnifiedMessenger.java:152)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.UnifiedInvocationHandler.invoke(UnifiedInvocationHandler.java:48)
	at com.sun.proxy.$Proxy16.gameDataChanged(Unknown Source)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.addChange(ServerGame.java:638)
	at games.strategy.engine.delegate.DefaultDelegateBridge.addChange(DefaultDelegateBridge.java:91)
	at games.strategy.triplea.delegate.GameDelegateBridge.addChange(GameDelegateBridge.java:62)
	at games.strategy.triplea.delegate.battle.MustFightBattle.remove(MustFightBattle.java:603)
	at games.strategy.triplea.delegate.battle.MustFightBattle.clearWaitingToDieAndDamagedChangesInto(MustFightBattle.java:456)
	at games.strategy.triplea.delegate.battle.MustFightBattle$20.execute(MustFightBattle.java:1777)
	at games.strategy.triplea.delegate.ExecutionStack.execute(ExecutionStack.java:34)
	at games.strategy.triplea.delegate.battle.MustFightBattle.fight(MustFightBattle.java:722)
	at games.strategy.triplea.delegate.battle.BattleDelegate.fightBattle(BattleDelegate.java:242)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(NativeMethodAccessorImpl.java:62)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.java:43)
	at java.base/java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:566)
	at games.strategy.engine.delegate.DelegateExecutionManager$1.invoke(DelegateExecutionManager.java:120)
	at com.sun.proxy.$Proxy12.fightBattle(Unknown Source)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(NativeMethodAccessorImpl.java:62)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.java:43)
	at java.base/java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:566)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.EndPoint.invokeSingle(EndPoint.java:136)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.EndPoint.lambda$invokeMultiple$0(EndPoint.java:120)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.ReferencePipeline$3$1.accept(ReferencePipeline.java:195)
	at java.base/java.util.Spliterators$ArraySpliterator.forEachRemaining(Spliterators.java:948)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.AbstractPipeline.copyInto(AbstractPipeline.java:484)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.AbstractPipeline.wrapAndCopyInto(AbstractPipeline.java:474)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.ReduceOps$ReduceOp.evaluateSequential(ReduceOps.java:913)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.AbstractPipeline.evaluate(AbstractPipeline.java:234)
	at java.base/java.util.stream.ReferencePipeline.collect(ReferencePipeline.java:578)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.EndPoint.invokeMultiple(EndPoint.java:121)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.EndPoint.invokeLocal(EndPoint.java:111)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.unifiedmessenger.UnifiedMessenger.invokeAndWait(UnifiedMessenger.java:96)
	at games.strategy.engine.message.UnifiedInvocationHandler.invoke(UnifiedInvocationHandler.java:56)
	at com.sun.proxy.$Proxy12.fightBattle(Unknown Source)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(NativeMethodAccessorImpl.java:62)
	at java.base/jdk.internal.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.java:43)
	at java.base/java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:566)
	at games.strategy.engine.player.DefaultPlayerBridge$GameOverInvocationHandler.invoke(DefaultPlayerBridge.java:152)
	at com.sun.proxy.$Proxy12.fightBattle(Unknown Source)
	at games.strategy.triplea.ai.AbstractAi.battle(AbstractAi.java:609)
	at games.strategy.triplea.ai.AbstractAi.start(AbstractAi.java:517)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.waitForPlayerToFinishStep(ServerGame.java:537)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.runStep(ServerGame.java:407)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ServerGame.startGame(ServerGame.java:297)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.LocalLauncher.launchInternal(LocalLauncher.java:61)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.LocalLauncher.launchInternal(LocalLauncher.java:34)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.AbstractLauncher.lambda$launch$0(AbstractLauncher.java:16)
	at java.base/java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:834)

WoW-TR-19-end.tsvg
autosave_round_even.tsvg
autosave_round_odd.tsvg

Trevan

@TheDog Thanks for the save game. I see a issue in github that appears to be this one. I've copied the save there. https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/7026

I can duplicate it with 2.1 but not with the latest master. So this might already be fixed in one of the pre-releases. I'm trying to figure out if it is really fixed.

Trevan

I was wrong about it being fixed. There is some randomness to getting the error. I'm able to duplicate it and will be putting more details about it in the github issue.

TheDog

@Frostion
As I have a few games under my belt, here are some observation/suggestions.

Unit buying
Irregulars - the cheapest unit, good for fodder and gaining territory
Footmen - good general purpose
Pike - good anti cavalry
Bow - I dont buy, poor value
Crossbow - I dont buy, poor value
Artillery - poor value, especially when the hero wields so much ranged fire power.

Suggestions
Cavalry - drop their PU, increase/double their Food cost, these are really good blitzers and great at causing mayhem in the enemies territories. The Food change is to use up the food surplus later in the game. Besides you have to feed the mount.
Range 4 spells - too long, reduce to range 2 or 3

Undead
Skeletons - too cheap should be 10 or 15 mana
Fire Thrower - appears poor value v Catapult in the Battle Calc

Troll
Berserkers - poor value also dont give Veteran so not worth it
Dire Troll is too expensive as it specifically needs 5 Allied Irregulars to make it worth while
Fire Canoe looks poor value and only moves 1 v Warship general purpose stats

Do you want more observations/suggestions?

avshar

Some of what TheDog posted is how i feel as well but not all. My observations will differ a bit.

All around i think the game is well balanced. Since there are four races on each side the randomness of the resource placement and helpful items means that IF you are playing only one of those races, the other three are almost guaranteed to have more of something you lack. You just need to figure out what you need to specialize in to be an effective ally.

As to units, i think the current stats are mostly fine. I agree with TheDog that cavalry could be a bit more costly in food. I don't agree with his take on bowmen and crossbowmen. These to me seem to have been intended as basically improved Irregulars. Either gaining a defensive or offensive bonus but still basically Irregulars. The cost for them is not much more in PU's but you have to pay for the bonuses in food. I don't have a problem with that. Especially in the later game when there is such a huge surplus most of the time.

I don't agree with the take on artillery either. Its a nice way to have powerful attacks like a hero when your hero is not present. Or if you do not have enough mana or gold for whatever reason to buy the good supporting units.

I do agree that spells are a bit O.P. with their range, 4 seems excessive. I also agree with the troll Berserkers not being worth it. I have not once bought them. The Fire Canoe i also agree with. Its basically pointless. At that speed its almost purely a defensive weapon.

All in all though like i said this game seems very well thought out. If the technical glitches can be ironed out it may well be a favorite of mine.

Frostion

@TheDog @avshar Great feedback! I have have had little time to work on this map lately, but a thorough evaluation of your save games and feed back is on my to-do-list (like your agreements and disagreements).

Also, the potential map-error with the undead movement of the balloon.

Any errors, shortcomings, inaccuracies or misinformation in like tooltips or notes are also very welcome

TheDog

I have been playing 30 rounds with 2.1.20376 no errors!

Updating to 2.1.20386, for another go

@Frostion
Gnomes to turn 30, so much resources especially food.
WoW-G30.tsvg

A nice surprise when I reached level 8, shhh, dont tell everyone what it is.

This is a great game!

Frostion

Here are my thoughts right now on fixes and stuff:

1. Food is in way to high abundance mid/late-game. Therefore food supply on the map should be nerfed.
Wood is for ships and artillery. I think it is a matter of play style if this is used up by the player or not. I would not adjust this resource just yet. Food balance first.
Gold would be the next resource to balance as all players use them for Factories and race specific special units.
Mana and Oil is only for special units, therefore cost adjustments will bring down the abundance. Any race’s special unit price elevation is also a delicate matter, so I would like to postpone this until the Food resource, and after this - also gold, is adjusted.

2. Bowmen and Crossbowmen are weak, but I also see them as cost effective attack and defense units. I think this is a matter of preference and play style. If food availability is nerfed, I think it would be a good idea to cut the Crossbow and Bow Food cost in half, down to 5 Food. Then they will not be in so much competition with the Footmen when it comes to purchase. And in this map, Footmen are “good quality” units, skilled warriors that are suppirior to the rest of the infantry. So I think it would be fitting.

3. Cavalry cost. I agree that it should be raised. Maybe 15 Food, not 10. I guess the animals consume some vegetables, or in the case of the Gnomen mechanical cavalry ... maybe they need vegetable-oil I will not lower PU cost … but this is purely an AI technical thing, as AI players would highly favor Cavalry only armies.

4. Artillery cost effectiveness. I think it is a matter of play style and preference. Personally I dig artillery, but I don’t know how effective they are compared to spending the PUs on Irregulars and Footmen. My love of artillery might be counterproductive if they are actually not cost effective. But I think one thing is clear; you really do need artillery for taking down factories/fortifications. Right? And if you don’t like artillery, then there is more than enough wood for ships, right?

5. Fire-Thrower effectiveness:

17 Fire-Throwers (510 PUs) & 17 Fire-Shots VS 15 Catapults (510 PUs) & 15 Catapult Shots
Catapult attack win = 72%
Catapult defense win = 0%
Fire-Thrower attack win = 100%
Fire-Thrower defense win =28%

If it was 15 vs 15 then the two machines are actually equal. Catapult best at def, and Fire-Thrower best at attack.
The catapult can destroy factories with bombard damage of 1-7, the Fire thrower only 1-5.

As I see it, the Fire-Thrower is OK and I think more cost effective overall, just not if it is only used to bombard buildings.

6. Dire-Trolls cost 70 PUs at the moment. If they cost 60 PUs, 9 Footmen + 2 Dire-Trolls would be equal in cost and effectiveness the battle calculator to 16 Footmen if attacking. But their big advantage in general is, they they can be brought along in battle as 2-hitpoint units, repairing for free after battle. This in my mind is a HUGE advantage, saving the lives of two units, their HP and strengths. So I am a bit reluctant in nerfing them at the moment, unless there is a huge uproar and demand for this. And if this was so, then ALL 2-hit land unit costs should be reevaluated.

6. Fire-Canoe is not cost effective, and I will lower the cost.

7. Berserkers are not cost effective? I actually disagree a lot. Footmen are 3att/3def 20 Pus. Berserkers are 4 att/2def 20 PUs. Already here many would say that they are superior, as specialized units are always better than flat rate standard units. (One 4att/2def + one 2att/4def will in the long run always win battles over two 3att/3def units. This is because if both parties loose one unit in the first round, the specialized army will be +25% stronger during next battle round, as they choose the weak as casualty) On top of this, the Berserkers have the ability to support 1 standard Footmen unit during attack, making it even more specialized.

8. Skeletons cost. I think the Mana price is fitting, as the Skeletons (and the level skill) also have a great weakness; they can only be build when the Hero is stationary and not really doing anything, or alternatively at the same time as the Hero resurrects at a factory (I think?). But I can see how this unit can be mass spammed at a capital, with the Hero just staying put throughout the game, So I do think that the 5 Mana cost should be supplemented by 5 PUs. Then the unit is like 33% PU cost of Irregulars + Mana. And they can only be created during special conditions. Does it sound reasonable?

9. Spells move 4 only because this is the only way I have been able to make it possible for Heroes to bring them along, if they attack move (via air unit) 4 territories. For technical reasons, spells are Air units, therefore they cannot “board” an air unit mount like balloon or gryphon. At the same time, it would be lame if the Hero could not have his/her spells when flying into attack, right? I would actually prefer spells on their own only had 1 move range, but I just don’t have a solution at the moment that would “fit the whole package” so to speak. If any one learns this map + has the technical skills to come up with a new way to handle spells, I am all ears!

10.“Do you want more observations/suggestions?”
Yes, keep it coming!

Based on this, I think the following changes would be fitting the next version of this map v0.1.3:
• Added more explanation during into, on how to place origin skills.
• The amount of Food availability on the map has been reduced slightly. Gold will be evaluated next, followed by the other resourses.
• Bowmen and Crossbowmen now cost 5 Food, not 10 Food.
• Cavalry now cost 15 Food, not 10 Food.
• Fire-Canoe now cost 20 PUs, not 25 PUs.
• Skeletons now also cost 5 PUs, besides 5 Mana.
Also, I think about these changes:
• Troop-Transport now cost 26 PUs, not 25.
• Submarine now cost 28 PUs, not 30.
• Economic victory at 400 PUs.
• Normal victory at 6 Capitals.
• The Gnomen Spider-Tank can now traverse mountains and rivers. (This would make it a cool very special unit :-P)
• Undead Hero Sevis tooltip spelling error fix (“place by Sevisat at factory”)

I will first have the time to work on changes in like 5-7 days from now, so there is plenty of time to find new issues, do further testing and discus these or other changes. I appreciate all the help and testing, I already see this map imporving!

TheDog

@Frostion

Origins
I really like this, however, I always pick the same three, PUs, Food, Wood, and vary the 4th, but always a unit building resource. Maybe reduce the unit resources to make them less attractive.

Units
Muster Elite Cavalry is way too expensive so I will never buy it.

Another option for spending XP could be for every race to buy one Hero with leadership abilities.

Siege Engines
Could they be created where there are woods and no Factory?

My take on Siege Engines is most have an attack and no defence, but the Night Elf Scorpid would have attack and defence.

Gnomes
Manabots, Mana is too expensive, I buy them cause I cannot buy anything else with the mana surplus.

Night Elves
Have 5+1+1=7 unit production centres/Factories, in keeping with other races, Darnassus perhaps to 3, or if you must 4. Night Elves can build a Fleet twice as quick as other races and the sea has a lot of resources. (The Gnomes also have access to 2 ports, but that is countered by the Pirates, in the early game.

I created the Ceremonial Fire, the following turn it disappears and is replaced with 3 wisps. Is this how its supposed to work?

Mountain Giant, is poor value, maybe 75 mana or less? Mana is too expensive, I buy them cause I cannot buy anything else with the mana surplus.

Sieges
This is an awesome game and Im having loads of fun.
But Sieging the capitals is too easy, they dont feel like sieges.
Would you consider having say walls that must be destroyed first by Siege Engines and bombers?
Maybe degrading the Factory from a 5 to 4 to 3 etc?

Aircraft are too good at Bombing, they can stop a capitals production.

It seems strange that when a capital falls to the enemy it retains its full factory output and the enemy can use it next turn,

A random suggestion
All mana based units could be 'summoned' by casters/heroes instead of appearing at a Factory.

TheDog

@Frostion said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:

Spells move 4

I would be happy to have to spells with a range of 1 and suffer the tech penalty. Spells with range 4 just feels so wrong and is open to abuse.

Currently the hero that can fly and cast range 4 is great when you do it, but lousy when used against you.

TheDog

@Frostion
Thinking more about Spells, would this work?

Make all hero transports carrying capacity 4, so NOT infantry.
Reduce spells to range 1 and can be carried by transport.
So air transport can carry a Hero +3 other "things", including spells.

As an aside, all non transport ships could have a carrying capacity 4, so a hero can travel by sea.

TheDog

@Frostion & Devs
Although Im playing as Dwarves, checkout the attached file, AI standoff at Orgrimmar. It looks like the AI cannot decode a path? Maybe the AI thinks the air bridge is usable by land units?

WoW-D-23.tsvg

XP
When a hero dies can the XP required to resurrect be based on say the current turn x 10 XP, so if its turn 11 and a hero dies, they will have to pay 110 XP to be resurrected.Why, sometime I suicide my hero to get back to a Factory to defend it, bargain for 10XP.

Dwarf
Gunship is poor value compared to Flying Machine. The Gunship should be cheaper.

Mortars needing Gold are spammed and wood is used for Ships.
So Artillery tends not to be bought by Dwarves.

Others
Dryads cannot Blitz, should they be able too?

TheDog

@Frostion
Origins for AI
Can you hardcode each race's 4 origin choices, yes they would always be the same, but at least they would be used? Unless you can randomly pick them, then I would hardcode 2 and random pick 2.

Factories/Barracks
When I want Factories in an area I spread the Guard Towers around in a few Territories as its cheaper to do so. Perhaps;
Guard Towers cost 30pu 30gold
Fort cost 30pu 25gold
Garrison cost 30pu 20gold
Castle cost 30pu 15gold
This way its cheaper to have addons , rather than spread Guard Towers around?

Humans
Arthur, has Def 5, a Power of 5, a higher TUV than other heroes, he needs nerfing, or maybe just start with 4 Footmen to rebalance this?
-Start with a Harbour, a bonus.
-Are not threatened by the enemy, therefore can easily expand.
-They are the easiest to play and be almost anywhere with the Teleporting Gates.

TheDog

Artillery
If I'm reading the xml file correctly there is not much difference between all the Artillery, take a Catapult and plus and minus the stats by 1.

I would like to see the following;
-Ballista, range 1, cannot shoot over air-bridges as its direct fire, but its very good v AA, so better than now, cannot perform a raid. Overall this should make it cheaper.
-Catapult, as now, but worse v AA and has a lower Defence.
-Trebuchet, as now, but even worse v AA and has a lower Defence. Movement 0, can be made anywhere.

Battle Calculator
In the Dwarf list the Undeads Southshore Port appears, it should be in the Undead list.

Economic Victory
I would go for 2/3 total PU, so about 450PU. 400 might be too easy to achieve.

Thanks for producing this game!
I will await eagerly for an update.

TheDog

Suggested starting forces for all.
Reduce the number of Infantry units by 2.
Add 1 Workboat
Add 1 Cavalry
These changes should speed up the initial exploring game play, so that players can get into the meat of the game sooner.
It also adds decision points for the player, how best to use the Cavalry and the Workboat must dodge the Pirates to keep alive.

Elementals & Banshees
Could have a Transport Cost of 99, ie they cannot be Transported.
However they could be Summoned/Placed anywhere, or limited to being placed with Heroes/Casters with Magic Attacks.